Editing Talk:Golf

== Is Mario really the golfer? ==
Is the golfer in this game really Mario? In ''[[Captain Rainbow]]'', it is clearly confirmed that he isn't Mario. There he's called "Ossan" (literally "Old Man"). Click on the golfer on [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/r7cj/guide.html this map] of the island and a window pops up, it can be seen that he is supposed to be the golfer from ''Golf'' (of course, he looks very different in ''Captain Rainbow'', like many of the Nintendo characters). I looked up the American manual for ''Golf'', and I couldn't find Mario's name anywhere. Is there any official source that confirms that the golfer is Mario? I read that this was mentioned in a player's guide, but we all know that those guides don't always tell the truth. I speak about the NES version, of course there's no doubt that Mario is the golfer in the Game Boy version. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 16:55, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
*It said he was in the old Mario Mania Players' Guide. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:51, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
::Well, that's the source I read about where he was called Mario. But is he named Mario anywhere else, besides player's guides? As I told, I couldn't find Mario's name in the manual. If the golfer is really Mario, why should they make a different character out of him in ''Captain Rainbow''? --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 11:30, 24 August 2008 (EDT)
:::I was thinking Mario Mania was American, which would make it understandable that a Japanese company like skip Ltd. wouldn't really know about its contents. I think we should just say it's been retconned or there are conflicting views or something. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}}

For shere that is NOT Mario.(user:mia90)

Well, it looks a lot like Mario. But maybe we should move this to [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|Canonicity]] just in case. [[User:Pixl Power|Pixl Power]]
:Actually, I meant cameo appearances if we have something about that. [[User:Pixl Power|&#123;&#123;subst:nosubst&#124;User:Pixl Power/Sig}}]]

== This is not Mario's first sport outing. ==

The first line of this article states that this is the first sports game that Mario took part in. I think this is wrong, because I'm pretty sure Donkey Kong Hockey was released first. And that one clearly states that it's Mario playing against Donkey Kong. --[[User:Jomingo|Jomingo]] 15:44, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

== Article should be taken down from list of games? ==

*If the character in this game was retconned to not be Mario, then the game no longer has any connection to the Mario universe.  Shouldn't it be taken down from the list of Mario games?  --[[User:Xell Khaar|Xell Khaar]] 04:48, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

:Unless we have solid proof from Nintendo that that actually ''is'' Mario, I suggest we merge it with [[Game Sightings]]. {{User:Stooben Rooben/sig}} 10:33, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
::I think it can stay. It is unsure if he really is, but it was stated by at least one official source (which doesn't need to be always correct, though) that it is Mario (sadly, the [http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/images/box/hvc/gf_eu.jpg golfer's artwork] only shows him from behind). The issue with the golfer should just be clearly stated in the article. But even that he is the golfer in the Game Boy version is somewhat debatable, look at the characters used for the Japanese box art: [http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/dmg/goa/index.html] Just some generic humans instead of Mario, while the western box art clearly shows him (and the player sprite looks like Mario, too). We may never get a definte answer. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 16:58, 7 December 2008 (EST)
:Since the Western boxart shows it clearly, we can keep the page, but we should mention how it was retconned but Mario appears in the Western GB version. {{User:Daniel Webster/Miniature}} 18:55, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Take it down!Take it down!(user:mia90)

==To do: find the differences between Japanese and overseas versions of ''VS. Golf''==
{{talk}}
There are two regional versions of ''VS. Golf'', just like there are for ''[[VS. Pinball]]'' and ''[[VS. Wrecking Crew]]''. The Japanese version will say "Nintendo Co., Ltd." in its title page as [https://youtu.be/mjAqlIu5UvM?t=867 seen here]. The international version will just say "Nintendo" as [https://youtu.be/YzJm78lYaVg?t=41 seen here]. <s>The "Ladies" version may also have regional variations.</s><small>(Highly doubtful there was a Japanese "Ladies" release)</small> We should investigate their differences.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 04:05, November 7, 2022 (EST)

== Mario in Golf. ==
{{talk}}
That is Mario. Ossan is just an internal development name for Mario back during the development of DK. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:08, January 05, 2023 (CST)
:So, I've actually been meaning to revisit this, and I guess now's a good a time as any. I really think there's a mix-up here. The source for Mario being in NES ''Golf'' is page 9 of ''Mario Mania'' and {{media link|SMCE page 85.jpg|page 85}} of ''Super Mario Zen Hyakka''. Game Boy ''Golf'', meanwhile, is virtually a separate game, as it not only doubles the number of courses but has entirely different course layouts. The sources stating that Mario is in Game Boy ''Golf'' are ''Mario Mania'' once again, {{media link|PEGMCE page 239.jpg|page 239}} of ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten'' (which oddly enough seems to picture the NES game while describing the GB one), and {{media link|ZSMOH page 128.jpg|page 128}} of Keibunsha's (probably licensed) ''Zen Super Mario ŌHyakka''. The more recent ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' neglects to mention either version of ''Golf'', and Mister Wu says that neither does ''Super Mario Bros. Daizukan'' (only showing ''Mario Open Golf'') or ''Super Mario Pia'' (only showing ''Family Computer Golf: Japan Course''). Tellingly, [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/index.html Mario Portal] lists the Famicom derivatives of ''Golf'' featuring definitely-Mario (''Golf: Japan Course'', ''Golf: US Course'', and ''Mario Open Golf''), but not the original ''Golf''. The [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B4%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95_(%E4%BB%BB%E5%A4%A9%E5%A0%82) Japanese Wikipedia] article for ''Golf'' vaguely claims that it was deconfirmed to be Mario at another point (besides ''Captain Rainbow'') in a Family Computer Magazine / Famimaga feature, but it isn't specific enough. What about manuals and packaging? As far as I can tell, nothing has ever explicitly referred to the player character as Mario; the closest this comes to that is the western cover art for the Game Boy version, in which the golfer from the back looks a lot like Mario wearing a slightly different hat and cleats, but unlike ''Alleyway'', the sprites in the game depict a mustache-less character. I think there was an unfortunate combination of the western cover art (which seems to be an artist trying to attract sales) and the multitide of other similar golf games featuring definitely-Mario that caused confusion. And then there's Ossan in ''Captain Rainbow'', who is identified as the golfer. I know "Ossan" was a development name for Mario, but it's generic enough to be a coincidence. [https://www.youtube.com/embed/j2Zeajm2BMc?start=27&end=33 Look at this character.] The joke isn't that he's Mario, but that he stuffs his golfballs down his pants, which is decidedly un-Mario. All in all, perhaps there have been inklings of Mario being the golfer in past supplemental material, but that idea has been abandoned. But since this is such a unique case that may have been true at one point, I'd like to present the following solution: '''Classify ''Golf'' as historically significant.''' [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:20, January 7, 2023 (EST)
::Wow! That is a lot! How about we just agree to disagree? That can solve a lot of conflicts. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 11:01, January 24, 2023 (CST)

== Split "VS. Golf" (or "Stroke & Match Golf") from Golf ==
{{talk}}
VS./Stroke & Match Golf already itself has two versions, adding that to this one isn't helping. It's covering three versions of one game with different stage layouts/orders at once. (Also, we already have VS. SMB and Wrecking Crew split). The Game Boy version is itself in a similar situation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:31, July 7, 2023 (EDT)
:We also need to figure out what to do with ''Ladies' Version'' (as implied above) and the Virtual Boy game, since they remove the direct Mario appearance.... but are still spun off from the Mario-featuring original, which means they are directly derived from ''Mario'' games (similar to how ''[[Wario: Master of Disguise]]'' gets full coverage yet has nothing to do with Mario the character since it's essentially a spinoff of a spinoff). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:14, August 7, 2023 (EDT)

== Virtual Boy game's situation ==

{{talk}}
I want to discuss whether the ''{{wp|Golf (1995 video game)|Golf}}'' for the [[Virtual Boy]] should count as a successor to the NES ''Golf'' or a wholly unrelated game that happens to have the same basic generic title. The US release points to the former, as it is internally branded ''Nintendo Golf'' in the background of the main menu and was published by Nintendo, but in its home country of Japan, it was published by its third-party developer, T&E Soft, and its title is ''T&E Virtual Golf'' on the box and in-game. It seems the "Nintendo" branding is specific to the US release, so should this be considered a third-party game dolled up into a first-party game's successor? Or just an unrelated game all around? On another note, ''Mario Golf'' on the Nintendo 64 seems to borrow some gameplay elements from this one, like the ball-landing grid square. For reference, [https://youtu.be/YvcLiwgLLXg here is a playthrough of the US release], and [https://www.virtual-boy.com/games/golf/images/ here is paraphernalia associated with both games]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:24, August 8, 2023 (EDT)
@@ Line 24: / Line 24: @@
 Take it down!Take it down!(user:mia90)
-==<s>To do: find the differences between Japanese and overseas versions of ''VS. Golf''</s>==
+==To do: find the differences between Japanese and overseas versions of ''VS. Golf''==
+{{talk}}
 There are two regional versions of ''VS. Golf'', just like there are for ''[[VS. Pinball]]'' and ''[[VS. Wrecking Crew]]''. The Japanese version will say "Nintendo Co., Ltd." in its title page as [https://youtu.be/mjAqlIu5UvM?t=867 seen here]. The international version will just say "Nintendo" as [https://youtu.be/YzJm78lYaVg?t=41 seen here]. <s>The "Ladies" version may also have regional variations.</s><small>(Highly doubtful there was a Japanese "Ladies" release)</small> We should investigate their differences.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 04:05, November 7, 2022 (EST)
-:Done by Doc--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 04:32, September 14, 2023 (EDT)
 == Mario in Golf. ==
+{{talk}}
 That is Mario. Ossan is just an internal development name for Mario back during the development of DK. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:08, January 05, 2023 (CST)
-:So, I've actually been meaning to revisit this, and I guess now's a good a time as any. I really think there's a mix-up here. The source for Mario being in NES ''Golf'' is page 9 of ''Mario Mania'' and {{file link|SMCE page 85.jpg|page 85}} of ''Super Mario Zen Hyakka''. Game Boy ''Golf'', meanwhile, is virtually a separate game, as it not only doubles the number of courses but has entirely different course layouts. The sources stating that Mario is in Game Boy ''Golf'' are ''Mario Mania'' once again, {{file link|PEGMCE page 239.jpg|page 239}} of ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten'' (which oddly enough seems to picture the NES game while describing the GB one), and {{file link|ZSMOH page 128.jpg|page 128}} of Keibunsha's (probably licensed) ''Zen Super Mario ŌHyakka''. The more recent ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' neglects to mention either version of ''Golf'', and Mister Wu says that neither does ''Super Mario Bros. Daizukan'' (only showing ''Mario Open Golf'') or ''Super Mario Pia'' (only showing ''Family Computer Golf: Japan Course''). Tellingly, [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/index.html Mario Portal] lists the Famicom derivatives of ''Golf'' featuring definitely-Mario (''Golf: Japan Course'', ''Golf: US Course'', and ''Mario Open Golf''), but not the original ''Golf''. The [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B4%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95_(%E4%BB%BB%E5%A4%A9%E5%A0%82) Japanese Wikipedia] article for ''Golf'' vaguely claims that it was deconfirmed to be Mario at another point (besides ''Captain Rainbow'') in a Family Computer Magazine / Famimaga feature, but it isn't specific enough. What about manuals and packaging? As far as I can tell, nothing has ever explicitly referred to the player character as Mario; the closest this comes to that is the western cover art for the Game Boy version, in which the golfer from the back looks a lot like Mario wearing a slightly different hat and cleats, but unlike ''Alleyway'', the sprites in the game depict a mustache-less character. I think there was an unfortunate combination of the western cover art (which seems to be an artist trying to attract sales) and the multitide of other similar golf games featuring definitely-Mario that caused confusion. And then there's Ossan in ''Captain Rainbow'', who is identified as the golfer. I know "Ossan" was a development name for Mario, but it's generic enough to be a coincidence. [https://www.youtube.com/embed/j2Zeajm2BMc?start=27&end=33 Look at this character.] The joke isn't that he's Mario, but that he stuffs his golfballs down his pants, which is decidedly un-Mario. All in all, perhaps there have been inklings of Mario being the golfer in past supplemental material, but that idea has been abandoned. But since this is such a unique case that may have been true at one point, I'd like to present the following solution: '''Classify ''Golf'' as historically significant.''' [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:20, January 7, 2023 (EST)
+:So, I've actually been meaning to revisit this, and I guess now's a good a time as any. I really think there's a mix-up here. The source for Mario being in NES ''Golf'' is page 9 of ''Mario Mania'' and {{media link|SMCE page 85.jpg|page 85}} of ''Super Mario Zen Hyakka''. Game Boy ''Golf'', meanwhile, is virtually a separate game, as it not only doubles the number of courses but has entirely different course layouts. The sources stating that Mario is in Game Boy ''Golf'' are ''Mario Mania'' once again, {{media link|PEGMCE page 239.jpg|page 239}} of ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten'' (which oddly enough seems to picture the NES game while describing the GB one), and {{media link|ZSMOH page 128.jpg|page 128}} of Keibunsha's (probably licensed) ''Zen Super Mario ŌHyakka''. The more recent ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' neglects to mention either version of ''Golf'', and Mister Wu says that neither does ''Super Mario Bros. Daizukan'' (only showing ''Mario Open Golf'') or ''Super Mario Pia'' (only showing ''Family Computer Golf: Japan Course''). Tellingly, [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/index.html Mario Portal] lists the Famicom derivatives of ''Golf'' featuring definitely-Mario (''Golf: Japan Course'', ''Golf: US Course'', and ''Mario Open Golf''), but not the original ''Golf''. The [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B4%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95_(%E4%BB%BB%E5%A4%A9%E5%A0%82) Japanese Wikipedia] article for ''Golf'' vaguely claims that it was deconfirmed to be Mario at another point (besides ''Captain Rainbow'') in a Family Computer Magazine / Famimaga feature, but it isn't specific enough. What about manuals and packaging? As far as I can tell, nothing has ever explicitly referred to the player character as Mario; the closest this comes to that is the western cover art for the Game Boy version, in which the golfer from the back looks a lot like Mario wearing a slightly different hat and cleats, but unlike ''Alleyway'', the sprites in the game depict a mustache-less character. I think there was an unfortunate combination of the western cover art (which seems to be an artist trying to attract sales) and the multitide of other similar golf games featuring definitely-Mario that caused confusion. And then there's Ossan in ''Captain Rainbow'', who is identified as the golfer. I know "Ossan" was a development name for Mario, but it's generic enough to be a coincidence. [https://www.youtube.com/embed/j2Zeajm2BMc?start=27&end=33 Look at this character.] The joke isn't that he's Mario, but that he stuffs his golfballs down his pants, which is decidedly un-Mario. All in all, perhaps there have been inklings of Mario being the golfer in past supplemental material, but that idea has been abandoned. But since this is such a unique case that may have been true at one point, I'd like to present the following solution: '''Classify ''Golf'' as historically significant.''' [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:20, January 7, 2023 (EST)
 ::Wow! That is a lot! How about we just agree to disagree? That can solve a lot of conflicts. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 11:01, January 24, 2023 (CST)
 == Split "VS. Golf" (or "Stroke & Match Golf") from Golf ==
+{{talk}}
 VS./Stroke & Match Golf already itself has two versions, adding that to this one isn't helping. It's covering three versions of one game with different stage layouts/orders at once. (Also, we already have VS. SMB and Wrecking Crew split). The Game Boy version is itself in a similar situation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:31, July 7, 2023 (EDT)
 :We also need to figure out what to do with ''Ladies' Version'' (as implied above) and the Virtual Boy game, since they remove the direct Mario appearance.... but are still spun off from the Mario-featuring original, which means they are directly derived from ''Mario'' games (similar to how ''[[Wario: Master of Disguise]]'' gets full coverage yet has nothing to do with Mario the character since it's essentially a spinoff of a spinoff). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:14, August 7, 2023 (EDT)
 == Virtual Boy game's situation ==
 {{talk}}
-I want to discuss whether the ''{{wp|Golf (1995 video game)|Golf}}'' for the [[Virtual Boy]] should count as a successor to the NES ''Golf'' or a wholly unrelated game that happens to have the same basic generic title. The US release points to the former, as it is internally branded ''Nintendo Golf'' in the background of the main menu and end of the credits, and it was published by Nintendo; but in its home country of Japan, it was published by its third-party developer, T&E Soft, and its title is ''T&E Virtual Golf'' on the box and in-game. It seems the "Nintendo" branding is specific to the US release, so should this be considered a third-party game dolled up into a first-party game's successor? Or just an unrelated game all around (noting that {{wp|T&E Soft}} has a long resume of golf games)? On another note, ''Mario Golf'' on the Nintendo 64 seems to borrow some gameplay elements from this one, like the ball-landing grid square. For reference, [https://youtu.be/YvcLiwgLLXg here is a playthrough of the US release], and [https://www.virtual-boy.com/games/golf/images/ here is paraphernalia associated with both games]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:24, August 8, 2023 (EDT)
+I want to discuss whether the ''{{wp|Golf (1995 video game)|Golf}}'' for the [[Virtual Boy]] should count as a successor to the NES ''Golf'' or a wholly unrelated game that happens to have the same basic generic title. The US release points to the former, as it is internally branded ''Nintendo Golf'' in the background of the main menu and was published by Nintendo, but in its home country of Japan, it was published by its third-party developer, T&E Soft, and its title is ''T&E Virtual Golf'' on the box and in-game. It seems the "Nintendo" branding is specific to the US release, so should this be considered a third-party game dolled up into a first-party game's successor? Or just an unrelated game all around? On another note, ''Mario Golf'' on the Nintendo 64 seems to borrow some gameplay elements from this one, like the ball-landing grid square. For reference, [https://youtu.be/YvcLiwgLLXg here is a playthrough of the US release], and [https://www.virtual-boy.com/games/golf/images/ here is paraphernalia associated with both games]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:24, August 8, 2023 (EDT)
-:I don't know why ''Golf'' VB is considered a "successor". Nintendo can make games about golfing that aren't related to this game or ''Mario Golf'' in general. A similar situation like this is with ''Game Boy Gallery'', but at least original Australian series name referred ''Game & Watch Gallery'' as ''Game Boy Gallery'' successor. However, there is no connection between ''Golf'' VB and the ''Mario Golf'' series aside from somewhat similar gameplay {{User:Starluxe/sig}} 10:07, October 5, 2024 (GMT)
-== Split the VS. System and Game Boy games ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|7-0|split}}
-As part of my recent project of improving sports game coverage, I have worked heavily on this page. The problem is that it covers three distinct games (one of which itself has three different variations), and while this made some degree of sense when the article was short, now that differences and hole maps for each have been added, this page now looks bloated and awkward for it, and I'm still not done adding information for things such as the clubs and the GB sprites. The games in question:
-*''Golf'' (NES, PC)
-*''Stroke & Match Golf'' (VS. System) - this one has the Japanese release, the "men's" American release, and the "ladies" American release, and is alternatively called "''VS. Golf''" (or "''VS. Ladies' Golf''" for the lattermost one) on the marquee. Each is called ''Stroke & Match Golf'' on the in-game title screen, though, hence why I'm using that as the title.
-*''Golf'' (GB)
-Anyway, this seems pretty open-and-shut to me, and since I moved the Virtual Boy game's information to the [[Golf (series)|new series page]], the primary obstacle to doing this has been removed.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': October 21, 2023, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - BIRDIE TRY!
-#{{User|Pseudo}} This seems sensible — if they’re different games, they’re different games.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We've split every other Vs. arcade game (as far as we can tell, anyways?), so why Golf gets to be an exception is beyond us. And then, of course, we might as well split the Game Boy version as well for consistency's sake. ;P
-#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Sure thing.
-#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
-#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Might as well. MIGHT be a stretch, but if the various Vs. versions have enough differences for them to be split after this, I'm all for it.
-#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per all.
-===Oppose===
-===Comments===