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| == Merge with [[Golden Mushroom]] and [[Dash Mushroom]] with [[Mushroom]] == | | == Merge with [[Golden Mushroom]] and [[Dash Mushroom]] with [[Mushroom]] == |
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| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|3-6|Don't merge}}
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| Basically going the opposite direction of [[Talk:Mushroom#Split_Dash_Mushroom_from_this_article|this proposal]], the reason being the recent release of the [[Spirit_(Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate)#footnote_inline_5|gold Mushroom spirit in ''Ultimate'']]. It's named the "Golden Dash Mushroom" in all regions, but the context in which you fight it is ''Mario Kart''-themed – ''Mario Kart'' stage, ''Mario Kart'' gimmicks, ''Mario Kart'' music, ''Mario Kart'' items (the rule even says so), and the artwork used is even taken directly from ''Mario Kart 8''. From this, I think it's clear that Nintendo intended the gold Mushroom in the later ''Mario Party'' games to be the same as the ''Mario Kart'' one (the ''Mario Kart 7'' European names should have been an indication of this, too), and for the same reason I think [[Dash Mushroom]] should also be merged back with [[Mushroom]], as that was also most likely similarly renamed. | | Basically going the opposite direction of [[Talk:Mushroom#Split_Dash_Mushroom_from_this_article|this proposal]], the reason being the recent release of the [[Spirit_(Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate)#footnote_inline_5|gold Mushroom spirit in ''Ultimate'']]. It's named the "Golden Dash Mushroom" in all regions, but the context in which you fight it is ''Mario Kart''-themed – ''Mario Kart'' stage, ''Mario Kart'' gimmicks, ''Mario Kart'' music, ''Mario Kart'' items (the rule even says so), and the artwork used is even taken directly from ''Mario Kart 8''. From this, I think it's clear that Nintendo intended the gold Mushroom in the later ''Mario Party'' games to be the same as the ''Mario Kart'' one (the ''Mario Kart 7'' European names should have been an indication of this, too), and for the same reason I think [[Dash Mushroom]] should also be merged back with [[Mushroom]], as that was also most likely similarly renamed. |
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| #{{user|Mario jc}} Per my proposal. | | #{{user|Mario jc}} Per my proposal. |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per my comments. | | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per my comments. |
| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
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| ===Merge Golden Dash Mushroom only=== | | ===Merge Golden Dash Mushroom only=== |
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| ===Keep split=== | | ===Keep split=== |
| #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} As the creator of the mentioned proposal, while I completely understand the point you're trying to make, the only evidence you presented doesn't hold up well enough in my opinion. Sure, "Golden Dash Mushroom" is its name in all English regions, and it ''was'' released as a spirit along with two other ''Super Mario Party''-related entities, but unless we have an actual description that at least '''hints''' that the two mushrooms are indeed the same thing, saying that they might be the same just because of vague similarities in the English and Japanese names (that aren't even the right names to compare, by the way) and also because of the way it was grouped in with ''Super Mario Party'' spirits seems like wild speculation at this point in time. I mean, for all we know, it could have been a mis- or re-translation, which '''has''' to some extent happened before, like with [[Parafoil]]. Plus, by this logic, you would be re-merging [[Setback Shell]] with [[Green Shell]], [[Backwards Bill]] with [[Bullet Bill]], [[Lightning Score Striker]] with [[Lightning]], and so on, where I feel that these articles should be visited too. Even then, it would be too inconsistent, seeing as how my original proposal not only tried to keep things consistent with articles like [[Thwomp Orb]] or [[Podoboo Orb]], but also because Mushrooms and Golden Mushrooms appeared in ''[[Mario Party 2]]'' with '''different''' functions from the Dash and Golden Dash Mushrooms despite ''Mario Party 2'' being part of the same series as ''Mario Party: Island Tour''. All in all, the proposal is okay reasoning, but I think that my reasoning (as well as that from the mentioned proposal) is even better. | | #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} As the creator of the mentioned proposal, while I completely understand the point you're trying to make, the only evidence you presented doesn't hold up well enough in my opinion. Sure, "Golden Dash Mushroom" is its name in all English regions, and it ''was'' released as a spirit along with two other ''Super Mario Party''-related entities, but unless we have an actual description that at least '''hints''' that the two mushrooms are indeed the same thing, saying that they might be the same just because of the way it was grouped in with ''Super Mario Party'' spirits seems like wild speculation at this point in time. I mean, for all we know, it could have been a mis- or re-translation, which '''has''' to some extent happened before, like with [[Parafoil]]. Plus, by this logic, you would be re-merging [[Setback Shell]] with [[Green Shell]], [[Backwards Bill]] with [[Bullet Bill]], [[Lightning Score Striker]] with [[Lightning]], and so on, where I feel that these articles should be visited too. Even then, it would be too inconsistent, seeing as how my original proposal not only tried to keep things consistent with articles like [[Thwomp Orb]] or [[Podoboo Orb]], but also because Mushrooms and Golden Mushrooms appeared in ''[[Mario Party 2]]'' with '''different''' functions from the Dash and Golden Dash Mushrooms. All in all, the proposal is okay reasoning, but I think that my reasoning is even better. |
| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Toadette the Achiever. They are separate from the normal Mushroom.
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| #{{User|Bloober}} Per Toadette the Achiever; I literally don't see a reason why it should be merged at all.
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| #{{User|Doomhiker}} Per Toadette the Achiever.
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| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I'm already at odds with the amount of things the [[Golden Mushroom]] article considers the same. Besides, SSBU also considers ''Wario: Master of Disguise'' to be a ''Wario Land'' game and ''Mario & Wario'' to be a ''Super Mario'' game.
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| #{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
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| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
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| Based on this, I'd say it would be reasonable to merge these mushrooms as well. Yes, they have different effects from their counterparts seen earlier in the series, but the original Mushroom hasn't been used since 7, and Golden Mushrooms haven't appeared since 4. Mario Party 9 was a major shakeup for the franchise, and given that these new mushrooms didn't appear until Island Tour, I think we can excuse the differences. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:10, 28 December 2018 (EST) | | Based on this, I'd say it would be reasonable to merge these mushrooms as well. Yes, they have different effects from their counterparts seen earlier in the series, but the original Mushroom hasn't been used since 7, and Golden Mushrooms haven't appeared since 4. Mario Party 9 was a major shakeup for the franchise, and given that these new mushrooms didn't appear until Island Tour, I think we can excuse the differences. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:10, 28 December 2018 (EST) |
| :But how does that counter my points? By this logic, we would merge [[Mushroom Orb]] with Mushroom as well. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 13:52, 28 December 2018 (EST) | | :But how does that counter my points? By this logic, we would merge [[Mushroom Orb]] with Mushroom as well. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 13:52, 28 December 2018 (EST) |
| ::Because you said and proposed that the post-''MP:IT'' variant should be split for being different from an earlier variant in the same series, when the latter itself is just as different as every other variant listed on the pages. The only reason they're still there is because they have the same name. This also includes the ''MP:IT'' Super Star, which functions radically different from its other appearances (including ''MP10'', a title in the same series), and is still on the main [[Super Star]] page. By not changing the name, the developers treated it as the same thing, which is why I'm making this proposal. Granted, something on the Mushroom and Golden Mushroom pages, especially the ''NSMB2'' Gold Mushrooms, could probably do with a split in the future, but as the crowned variant is the main subject of its respective article and the main reason the article exists, per my reasoning below and in the proposal, the post-''MP:IT'' and ''Mario Kart'' variants need to be merged. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 09:08, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| @Toadette the Achiever It's not a mistranslation – the [https://twitter.com/SmashBrosJP/status/1078093102605316096?s=19 Japanese spirit name] is "Powerful Dash Mushroom", the Japanese name for the ''Mario Kart'' item since [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/rmcj/item/index_10.html ''Mario Kart Wii''], which carries over to the [https://youtu.be/MPv2x8FxTRY?t=894 ''Mario Party'' item]. So yes, the English spirit name was a corrective ''re''translation to more closely match the Japanese name, but this means they intended the post-''Island Tour Mario Party'' item to be the same as the ''Mario Kart'' item, just like the Parafoil, so I don't see the point you're trying to make there (unless you're claiming the Parafoil in ''MK8'' is different from the Paraglider in ''MK7''?). In other words, this was a name change, a possibility you never considered before making your proposal, even with the European ''MK7'' name. Besides, the word "dash" even alludes more to the ''Mario Kart'' series than the ''Mario Party'' series. I also never said anything about the fact that it's grouped with two ''SMP'' spirits – if anything, this makes it more likely.
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| Also, your examples in your oppose argument and reply to Waluigi Time's comment don't fit my logic. The reason subjects like the enhanced RPG mushrooms, the ''Mario Party'' Blooper/Bullet Bill/etc. items and orbs were split from their derivatives is because they have ''different names'', because the developers treated them as counterparts and not exactly their derivatives, which generally already calls for separate pages. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 09:08, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| :I don't get why you said the other items in ''Mario Party: Island Tour'' ([[Blooper Chopper]], [[Lightning Score Striker]], etc.) are treated as counterparts by the developers of that game when the Dash Mushroom and Golden Dash Mushroom could technically be treated in the same regard. Also, the Japanese name alone '''does not''' prove anything about a name change; it definitely helps, but it can't be used as the ''only'' piece of evidence. Really, you should be comparing the general Japanese name in ''Mario Party: Island Tour'', ''Mario Party: Star Rush'', ''Mario Party: The Top 100'', and ''Super Mario Party'' to the Japanese name of the general ''Mario Kart'' series appearance. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 10:54, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| :Also, good catch, Doc! {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 12:01, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::*''Mario Kart'' series since ''Wii'' - パワフルダッシュキノコ (Powerful Dash Mushroom)
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| ::**''[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/amkj/man_amkj.pdf Mario Kart 7]''
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| ::**''[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/amkj/man_amkj_02.pdf Mario Kart 8]''
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| ::*''[https://youtu.be/lCvGD3MrVyw?t=312 Mario Party: Island Tour]'' - パワフルダッシュキノコ (Powerful Dash Mushroom)
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| ::*''[https://youtu.be/rlbgHJFdDPY?t=1023 Mario Party: Star Rush]'' - パワフルダッシュキノコ (Powerful Dash Mushroom)
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| ::*''[https://youtu.be/fM7BVQ5oBV8?t=696 Mario Party: The Top 100]'' - パワフルダッシュキノコ (Powerful Dash Mushroom)
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| ::*''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' - パワフルダッシュキノコ (Powerful Dash Mushroom)
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| ::English names aside, the crowned variant's name has remained consistent throughout each appearance since ''MKW''. If the ''MP:IT'' Super Star is just as different (if not more), can you explain then why it's still on the main Super Star page? Because they have the same name, right? If you're saying ''that'' should be split because of functional differences, then by ''that'' logic you'd have to split every subject Nintendo treats as the same thing with different roles and functions between games (the Fire Flower in the traditional ''Mario'' games compared to ''Smash Bros.'', for example) into separate pages. Many recurring subjects often vary by function between appearances, and it makes more sense to keep them on one page than to inconvenience readers by having them on a different page altogether. I can assure you if there was no change in the mushrooms' English name at all, no one would bat an eyelid. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 20:58, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| :::That's because Golden Mushrooms and Mushrooms appear in ''Mario Party 2'' with different purposes. Also, for two very prominent subjects, you can't just assume that it's a name change until there are additional appearances over time that use the name, which was the reason we moved [[Micro Goomba]] to [[Mini Goomba]]. Now, granted, I think it might be better if we first considered splitting the Mushroom and Golden Mushroom only from the ''Mario Kart'' series and then merged the Dash Mushroom and Golden Dash Mushroom articles into the respective ones, rather than just merging these head-on. To drive my point, what are the Japanese names from the ''Paper Mario'' series and ''Mario & Luigi'' series, as well as ''Mario Party 2''? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 23:51, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::::^ This is my ideal plan. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:05, 3 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::::''M&LSS'' is ゴールデンキノコ (Golden Mushroom) from what I can find. ''MP2'' is already on the article: スーパーキノコ (Super Mushroom).
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| ::::Well I'm not opposed on this either, I figured since this proposal is already up and running we would do this first and the split afterwards. But I understand this being more ideal. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 06:27, 11 January 2019 (EST)
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| @Doc von Schmeltwick I'm aware of the different golden mushrooms on the page, I'm saying the ''Mario Kart'' and post-''MP:IT'' ones should be merged and the rest can be handled later. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 20:58, 2 January 2019 (EST)
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| :Nope, I'd prefer it be disseminated first, ''then'' figure out where this goes, to avoid ultimate megasnarl of ultimate history. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:05, 3 January 2019 (EST)
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