Editing Talk:Gold Mario (character)

==(First topic)==
Uhh with the last sentence in the second paragraph saying that Gold Mario reverting back to regular Mario proving it's just the power up, are we still gonna keep this Gold Mario separate from the form or are they still considered separate characters? {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:Not really, it's sort of like having Metal Mario or Baby Mario merged with Mario because they are the same character. If you want, you could make a TPP, but if he's considered a different character, then maybe we should leave it. Depends really. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 03:23, 21 June 2014 (EDT)
::I think they are two different characters, to avoid the TPP now that there are so many in this period, make one now would make another TPP in vain. In addition the game also shows the Golden Flower himself, but no character is transformed so I would leave it all so. --[[User:Sonic98|Sonic98]] ([[User talk:Sonic98|talk]]) 04:46, 21 June 2014 (EDT)
:::Uh.... English please? - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 05:41, 21 June 2014 (EDT)
::::I think he said something like ''I think they are two different characters , avoid the TPP now because there are so many right now, to make one now would make another TPP in vain.''  Probably not accurate, but gives you a rough idea. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 05:45, 21 June 2014 (EDT)
:::::I have corrected the post, sorry I was wrong. --[[User:Sonic98|Sonic98]] ([[User talk:Sonic98|talk]]) 06:02, 21 June 2014 (EDT)

No problem. Is Italian your first language? Point is, he gets his own character spot and has actual gameplay differences, he isn't just a different skin, so I think he deserves this spot. Just like [[Baby Mario]]. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 08:41, 21 June 2014 (EDT)

== Merge with [[Gold Mario (form)]] ==
{{TPP}}
''"When in his Double Bogey or worse post-hole animation, he gets hit by a Green Shell, turning him into Super Mario, '''proving that Gold Mario is merely a powered-up Mario.'''"''

I'm pretty sure this means that this Gold Mario isn't a separate character like Metal Mario is (as nothing has been shown of him reverting back into normal Super Mario). I could say more, but that sentence pretty much sums it all up. This Gold Mario is just the power up form, proven in game, and not his own character.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Tails777}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' July 9th, 2014, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Tails777}} Per my proposal
#{{User|Mario}} Metal Mario has playable appearances in ''[[Mario Kart 7]]'', ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', ''[[Dr. Mario 64]]'', ''[[Mario Golf 64]]'', and he also appears as an opponent in the first two ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. Not only that (in Mario Kart), he has a different set of voices and animations. Metal Mario is also given the "tough guy" vibe since he is an opponent in ''Super Smash Bros.'', and his Mario Kart animations and artwork suggest this. Metal Mario indeed started as a near-palette swap in Golf 64 (which he has the same voice and animations; even then, he has a much bigger drive; Gold Mario does not), but he's slightly more different today. Gold Mario shares none of these characteristics, and evidence, from base stats to voice to post-goal animations, suggest that this Gold Mario is just a form of Mario.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} Current evidence points to the character being a power-up only and no compelling counter argument has been made. Not against revisiting should further evidence arise.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Ghost Jam.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Koopakoolklub}}If they were really the same person, why can one player play as Mario and another as Goldy in multiplayer?
#{{User|Ninelevendo}}''When grow up, [[Baby Mario]] will turn into Mario.'' It's a similar matter here. It's possible that there is a Mario from a parallel universe, whatever you believe, but the point is, different spot, different character. Like Zero Suit Samus and Sheik, or Mr. L.
#{{User|Dry Bowser rules!}} As with [[Metal Mario (character)|Metal Mario]] and [[Baby Mario]], it is reasonable to place Gold Mario as a seperate character, as he takes up a seperate spot on ''Mario Golf: World Tour'''s character select screen, and can play against normal Mario. Also, as Ninelevendo said, it is entirely possible for Gold Mario to be Mario from a parallel universe, like the characters that user mentioned.
#{{User|Stonehill}} Per Ninelevendo.
#{{User|Sonic98}} The Golden Flower appears in the same game. All the characters in the game can use it, including Mario, yet none of them assumes a golden form. And then thinking so what do we do with Gold Pink Peach? This is enough as evidence to show that this is a separate character.

===Comments===
@Koopakoolklub: This doesn't strike me as a particularly strong argument, as the answer to your question is "for gameplay reasons", which is pretty much a get out of jail free card when it comes to continuity discussions. While I'm at it, @Ninelevendo: This argument uses speculation about the origins of the character/form, not established material, and is generally frowned upon in these discussions.

All that said, all current evidence does support this character not being a character and I'm inclined to vote to that effect. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 19:58, 25 June 2014 (EDT)

Koopakoolklub: Just as how one can use [[Mario]] and Green Mario in the same match makes Green Mario a [[User:LeftyGreenMario|separate character]]... {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:24, 25 June 2014 (EDT)
:Although I don't understand why [[Mr. L]], [[Shadow Mario]], [[Meowser]] etc. exist if this passes. If anything, it should be merged with the other Gold Mario, but there's a reason that they were split. {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 21:56, 25 June 2014 (EDT)
::Shadow Mario also doesn't have a character article. :/ Meowser is a form that's different from [[Cat Mario]], and [[Mr. L]] is just a character crucial to the plot of the game that has another personality. Not to mention, he's also a boss. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:26, 25 June 2014 (EDT)
:::This is likely gonna end up a going nowhere conversation, as we both obviously have good points. It's just where we draw the line that matters. So we need more votes. I suggest re-visiting if this passes and he appears in more games. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 01:25, 26 June 2014 (EDT)
::::I was also wondering what would happen if a Silver Luigi came about. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 01:42, 26 June 2014 (EDT)

Errrrrr... I'm having a loss here. On one hand, there is no true proof that Metal Mario is both a separate character and a form and therefore if this is merged we should combine those as well, but on the other hand there is proof that this is a form and not a character and therefore it should be merged. Buuut on the third hand, you can play as Gold Mario and Mario at the same time... and on the fourth hand (I think I may be an alien) in Smash Bros. and Mario Kart 8 you can play as Mario and Mario at the same time. Overall, there's no real answer in my opinion. This is a problem worth looking into more. [[User:Peanutjon|Peanutjon]] ([[User talk:Peanutjon|talk]]) 11:59, 26 June 2014 (EDT)
:There is sufficient enough evidence to show that there is a character called Metal Mario as well as a power-up to change Mario into it, that's why we have to articles. The same can't be said for Gold Mario (currently, I admit). Additionally, the "you can play as so and so in [GAME]" isn't particularly  relevant as gameplay and story are two different things. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 13:32, 26 June 2014 (EDT)

I wanna point out again that this "might be from a parallel universe" fluff is exactly that, fluff. Nothing supports this and it's being used as a way to circumvent presenting evidence. I'm formally asking for the argument to be either backed up (per standard editing practices) or removed (per rule 5). -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 13:32, 26 June 2014 (EDT)

@Sonic98: Well, the Fire Flower appears numerous times (as an item in ''Super Smash Bros.'' games and ''Mario Kart'') and nobody assumes Fire form, not even Mario himself, so the premise of your argument is flawed. The Fire Mario recolor is present in ''Super Smash Bros.'' and in [[:File:Firemario.jpg|''Mario Kart'']]. Although the two forms here probably can't be simultaneously playable, simultaneously playable characters being the case for separate beings, by itself, is also a weak argument, since it's more on player convenience rather than "Mario" reality.

Pink Gold Peach has not appeared prior to any games, and she appears to be Metal Mario's parallel, so it's consistent and safe to infer that Pink Gold Peach is a separate character as well. Not only this, Pink Gold Peach has a separate set of voices (even if it is filtered, they are not from existing voice clips), animations, and stats.

@Those bringing up Baby Mario: Baby Mario has been established as a separate character long ago. Every time he appears alongside Mario, ever since ''Mario Golf'', he has different stats, different animation, different personality, different nearly everything. Baby Mario is more different to Mario than Metal Mario is to Mario, and Metal Mario is already distinguished himself. Both Baby Mario and Metal Mario have been their own character since the N64 era, although Metal Mario made more haphazard appearances, whereas Gold Mario appears in one game, and he is just as Mario, but can earn coins.

This particular Gold Mario has nearly identical everything, including voices, animations, and stats. The only thing that's different is his little coin bonus and that he's, well, gold. His double bogey animation is even supposed to reflect Mario's double bogey animation, but as a parallel. Super Mario -> Small Mario; Gold Mario -> Super Mario. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:10, 26 June 2014 (EDT)
@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 == Merge with [[Gold Mario (form)]] ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|13-4|merge}}
 ''"When in his Double Bogey or worse post-hole animation, he gets hit by a Green Shell, turning him into Super Mario, '''proving that Gold Mario is merely a powered-up Mario.'''"''
@@ Line 17: / Line 16: @@
 '''Proposer:''' {{User|Tails777}}<br>
-'''Deadline:''' July 9, 2014, 23:59 GMT
+'''Deadline:''' July 9th, 2014, 23:59 GMT
 ===Support===
 #{{User|Tails777}} Per my proposal
-#{{User|Mario}} Metal Mario has playable appearances in ''[[Mario Kart 7]]'', ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', ''[[Dr. Mario 64]]'', ''[[Mario Golf 64]]'', and he also appears as an opponent in the first two ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. Not only that (in Mario Kart), he has a different set of voices and animations. Metal Mario is also given the "tough guy" vibe since he is an opponent in ''Super Smash Bros.'', and his Mario Kart animations and artwork suggest this. Metal Mario indeed started as a near-palette swap in Golf 64 (which he has the same voice and animations; even then, he has a much bigger drive; Gold Mario does not), but he's slightly more different today. Gold Mario shares ''none'' of these characteristics, and evidence, from ''base stats to voice to post-goal animations''; the final nail in the golden coffin (or, sarcophagus, heh): ''Gold Mario cannot collect any powerups''; all of the above suggest that this Gold Mario is just a form of Mario; Mario has taken a Gold Flower and turns gold just to distinguish him. To summarize<br><br>Gold Mario shares Mario's voice.<br>Gold Mario shares Mario's stats.<br>Gold Mario shares Mario's animations (tweaked when appropriate; see double bogey)<br>Double bogey suggests powerup.<br>Gold Mario cannot use powerups, suggesting further that Mario ''is'' 'under influence' of a powerup.
+#{{User|Mario}} Metal Mario has playable appearances in ''[[Mario Kart 7]]'', ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', ''[[Dr. Mario 64]]'', ''[[Mario Golf 64]]'', and he also appears as an opponent in the first two ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. Not only that (in Mario Kart), he has a different set of voices and animations. Metal Mario is also given the "tough guy" vibe since he is an opponent in ''Super Smash Bros.'', and his Mario Kart animations and artwork suggest this. Metal Mario indeed started as a near-palette swap in Golf 64 (which he has the same voice and animations; even then, he has a much bigger drive; Gold Mario does not), but he's slightly more different today. Gold Mario shares none of these characteristics, and evidence, from base stats to voice to post-goal animations, suggest that this Gold Mario is just a form of Mario.
 #{{User|Ghost Jam}} Current evidence points to the character being a power-up only and no compelling counter argument has been made. Not against revisiting should further evidence arise.
 #{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Ghost Jam.
-#{{User|Vommack}} Per Mario and Ghost Jam.
-#{{User|Koopakoolklub}} Per Mario
-#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per all.
-#{{user|Tsunami}} The article speaks itself. If it powerdowns to Super Mario it is Mario with a Gold Flower. Per Mario (not the character, the user. Too many Marios in this proposal...).
-#{{User|Stonehill}} Per all.
-#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Argument for merge: see sister's post. Argument against split: something about unproven evidence regarding parallel universes? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
-#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all.
-#{{User|AwesomeLuigi}} - Per all.
-#{{User|Ashley and Red}}Per all. I aldo think that Pink Gold Peach should be the same: her stats says she is "Mario's belove" just like Peach, and she is stated to be a "powered-up human"....
 ===Oppose===
+#{{User|Koopakoolklub}}If they were really the same person, why can one player play as Mario and another as Goldy in multiplayer?
+#{{User|Ninelevendo}}''When grow up, [[Baby Mario]] will turn into Mario.'' It's a similar matter here. It's possible that there is a Mario from a parallel universe, whatever you believe, but the point is, different spot, different character. Like Zero Suit Samus and Sheik, or Mr. L.
 #{{User|Dry Bowser rules!}} As with [[Metal Mario (character)|Metal Mario]] and [[Baby Mario]], it is reasonable to place Gold Mario as a seperate character, as he takes up a seperate spot on ''Mario Golf: World Tour'''s character select screen, and can play against normal Mario. Also, as Ninelevendo said, it is entirely possible for Gold Mario to be Mario from a parallel universe, like the characters that user mentioned.
+#{{User|Stonehill}} Per Ninelevendo.
 #{{User|Sonic98}} The Golden Flower appears in the same game. All the characters in the game can use it, including Mario, yet none of them assumes a golden form. And then thinking so what do we do with Gold Pink Peach? This is enough as evidence to show that this is a separate character.
-#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
-#{{User|Randombob-omb4761}} Per Dry Bowser rules!.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 63: / Line 54: @@
 This particular Gold Mario has nearly identical everything, including voices, animations, and stats. The only thing that's different is his little coin bonus and that he's, well, gold. His double bogey animation is even supposed to reflect Mario's double bogey animation, but as a parallel. Super Mario -> Small Mario; Gold Mario -> Super Mario. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:10, 26 June 2014 (EDT)
-::I mean who would not make sense that Nintendo had included in the game a character that has the bonus of coins infinite perpetually exists when the Golden Flower that the effect does last forever. For this reason I think that Gold Mario is a character in itself.--[[User:Sonic98|Sonic98]] ([[User talk:Sonic98|talk]]) 15:24, 26 June 2014 (EDT)
-:::Gold Mario can't even collect powerups, so essentially, he's just Mario with a permanent powerup that takes up the powerup slot: a Gold Flower attached to him like a surgically conjoined floral Midas. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:31, 26 June 2014 (EDT)
-::::I gotta say though, it was weird disagreeing to something I wrote in the first place. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 02:49, 5 July 2014 (EDT)
-:::::Actually, if this gets split, so should [[Shadow Mario]]. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 04:30, 7 July 2014 (EDT)
-@Mario: Isn't Metal Mario also a downloadable character in ''[[Mario Tennis Open]]''? Even then, it counts toward Gold Mario being a powered-up Mario. <font face="Stencil">{{color link|#5f9ea0|User:Stonehill|STONE-HILL!!!}}</font> <sub>'''''[[User talk:Stonehill|At last, the rock fell.]]'''''</sub>
-:He is, but he has a different voice AND different stats, AND wasn't shown to be a mere power-up of Mario when he loses a point. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 21:03, 7 July 2014 (EDT)
-@Ashley and Red: Like Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach has her own voice, is in a different weight class and has different animations. As such, she is treated as a different character. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
-:Think she is Peach, just with a giltered voice (is the same edited in any program), her animations as far as Ivknow looks like the ones of Peach (but still are different) and yes, she is heavy because she os metalized. By the way, I think we should eait she appear in more games to have some proof.{{User:Ashley anEoTselkie/sig}}
-::Pink Gold Peach is a different subject, if you want to merge it to something be my guest, but I'd side with the opposition. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}}