Editing Talk:Goal Pole (secret)

==Well...==
Is this actually a secret exit? Shouldn't there also be a [[Secret Fortress]] article too?--{{User:Boowhoplaysgames/Sig}} 18:08, 2 April 2011 (EDT)

==We should==
We should really make a NSMB section. They're in it too you know!--{{User:Boowhoplaysgames/Sig}} 17:50, 8 April 2011 (EDT)

== Move to Secret Flagpole ==

I would like to move this page to Secret Flagpole. As the flagpole itself is not red, only the flag. Also, it could be moved to [[Secret Exit]] because creating a Secret Fortress page would be a copy to this page. I think I need to put this in proposal form? {{User:Toad's Pikmin Army/Sig}} 09:57, 26 August 2011 (EDT) 
===Support===
yep{{user|wario land 3}} 07:46, 6 June 2014 (EDT)
===Oppose===
===Comments===
We should move this to Secret Goal Pole to go along with [[Goal Pole|its counterpart]]. {{User|Technickal}}

== Is this needed? ==

I don't mean to seem rude but it feels as if the purpose of this article is to dump the Secret Exit sections of the respective articles all in one place. I mean, it's basically just a palette swap with little to it garnering its own article. Am I alone in this regard? --[[User:Grammarcheck|Grammarcheck]] ([[User talk:Grammarcheck|talk]]) 16:35, 25 September 2016 (EDT)
:Criticism is invited, just as long as you're reasonable, which you are. I do agree that this article teeters on covering strategy, which isn't allowed in this wiki. Considering that [[Star Coin]] doesn't have this insane level of information and [http://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:List_of_Golden_Bananas_in_Donkey_Kong_64#Delete_or_Merge_this_article Golden Banana]'s list was merged into the level articles, you also have a precedent. You have a pretty strong case to remove all of that information, I myself am pretty okay with this. However, the article on the basic information of what a Red Flagpole is and what it does makes for a valid, while short, article. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:39, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
::This article is almost entirely a walkthrough, which goes against our [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing]] policy. As is, I don't support keeping it. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 14:46, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
:::This article is also full of spoilers--Frábært! 20:14, 27 February 2018 (EST)
::::...And? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:19, 27 February 2018 (EST)
:::::It does not have any spoiler warning--Frábært! 18:29, 28 February 2018 (EST)
::::::As stated on [[MarioWiki:About]], the MarioWiki does not usually mark spoilers. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 18:30, 28 February 2018 (EST)

== Name ==
{{talk}}
Is the name official? Or is it fanmade? It would appear that the encyclopedia uses it. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:17, June 5, 2019 (EDT)
:The ''New Super Mario Bros.'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' guides flat-out don't refer to it by a direct name, but the ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' guides refer to it as "Goal Pole" (sometimes "secret Goal Pole"). Maybe the article should be changed to "Goal Pole (red)" or "Goal Pole (secret)"? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:40, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

==Rewrite Requested==
How would you like this article to be cleaned up? Should it be organized into tables? {{User:The Mansion/sig}} 19:49, April 14, 2020 (EDT)

== Renaming the [[Red Flagpole]] page to Secret Goal Pole ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-9|don't rename}}
This proposal is about renaming a page that users wanted to rename for years. This page has to be rename for the following reasons:
*It contains an unofficial names that has no source
*The custom name is actually '''wrong''': the flagpole is grey while the flag is red
*It does not fit with the [[Goal Pole]] page name
*The title does not mention its purpose of being a secret Goal Pole

This page has to be rename because the name makes absolutely no sens at all. The name is actually "secret Goal Pole" with secret as an adjective not capitalized, vut it would be capitalized in the title since it is the first word. Moreover, this name has been employed in some ''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' and ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' Nintendo-approved guides. I do not see any reasons to not use this name. Finally, due to the fact that recently, people have ben opting the name "red flag" for some reason, I am not against them as this is also a source name that is not wrong compared to this one, but "secret Goal Pole" makes a link with the normal [[Goal Pole]] and shows directly its purpose whereas "red flag" is not clear at first glance. Both are sourced so there is not any "real" problem with any of them.

Remember, "secret Goal Pole" is '''an official name.'''

'''Proposer''': {{User|1JUST1}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 12, 2021, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|1JUST1}} Per proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} <s>There's no source for the name "Secret Goal Pole".</s> If a source can't be found for Red Flagpole, then I'd prefer to see the article renamed to "red flag", which actually is sourced.
#{{User|DarkNight}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|AwdryFan1997}} Per Waluigi Time and DarkNight.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per Waluigi Time. Perhaps "Goal Pole (secret)" could be consider as well to keep the name similar enough to [[Goal Pole]]? But yeah, better go with a name that is sourced.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per Ninja Squid. Just use "Goal Pole (secret)" since most Prima guides I own just use "Goal Pole", same as its normal counterpart.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Not now. I suggest adding the secret identifier until we get a name for this.
#{{User|Keyblade Master}} If it's not an official name, it shouldn't be used when there are official names that exist.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. It'd still be a conjectural name, then.
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all, no point going from one conjectural name to another.

===Comments===
When the proposal deals with a single page you need to make a talk page proposal instead: you put the proposal in the talk page of the article where the change should happen. Furthermore, proposals are made when there is a disagreement, so there should be a discussion before. In this case, the discussion was left open more than a year ago, without a disagreement nor a conclusion, so maybe said discussion should be revived first and foremost.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:27, December 29, 2020 (EST)) - Comment made when it was on the main [[MarioWiki:Proposals|proposals]] page.

Where is the name "Secret Goal Pole" actually used? Unofficial names aren't uncommon here, we have plenty of conjectural titles here. We do have other sourced names for this, however. And the current name is still accurate, the flag is part of the flag pole. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:41, December 29, 2020 (EST)
:Apparently the NSMB2 and NSMBU guides use "secret Goal Pole", but never "Secret Goal Pole". They seem to just be referring to these as Goal Poles while adding secret as a generic adjective. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:00, December 29, 2020 (EST)
::As a matter of fact, the flag is part of the flagpole the same as a roof is part of a house. You cannot say the house is red if it is only the color of the roof. Moreover, the name "secret Goal Pole" (not capitalized, I apologize) is used in guides as said  [[User:Waluigi Time|Waluigi Time]]. Finally, the current name has no source. So, why not rename it with an accurate name that is not wrong, and with a source? [[User:1JUST1|1JUST1]] ([[User talk:1JUST1|talk]]) 12:29, December 29, 2020 (EST)
:::You can edit a proposal in the first three days (well, six for talk page proposals like this one), so if you want to fix the capitalization you can do that now.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:49, December 29, 2020 (EST)
::::Hey! Got some new now. So, the name is really written as "secret Goal Pole" in PRIMA guides, which is considered to be a relatable source. Moreover, I have found that '''"hidden goals"''' was also used in the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' instruction booklet. So this could also be a name, considering that this one is prior to the PRIMA one as it comes from an official Nintendo guide. [[User:1JUST1|1JUST1]] ([[User talk:1JUST1|talk]]) 18:04, January 5, 2021 (EST)
:::::Hmm, to me, it doesn't really mean anything actually. Just like Waluigi Time explained to you above, they used the word "secret" as a generic adjective rather than as an official term for the name. As for "hidden goals", this is from Princess Peach's letter in this instruction booklet, where she mentions: "On some courses, there are hidden goals and secret paths that open up new places on the map!". To me, I think she was referring more to the fact that the courses have hidden goals (hidden objectives), rather than describing the Goal Pole, you know. To be honest, I think it might just be better to rename this page "Goal Pole (secret)", since they still make usage of the term "Goal Pole" for the Red Flagpole, while adding the "secret" identifier, since this is the generic adjective the NSMBU Prima guide uses to describe this goal pole. {{User:Ninja Squid/sig}}
::::::Yeah, it could be better. [[User:1JUST1|1JUST1]] ([[User talk:1JUST1|talk]]) 17:16, January 6, 2021 (EST)

== Decide on a name for this article ==

{{TPP}}
Alright, time to do this the right way. Now that we have four official names for this subject, I think we ought to choose which one works for the article title.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Archivist Toadette}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' January 28, 2021, 23:59 GMT

==="Goal Pole (secret)"===
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} My preferred option. Since two Prima guides use this name, I'd say this is fair game for source priority exception.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I feel that this is the most consistent and accurate name.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Is the most consistent and, if you count the Purple Toad House at Secret Island, technically in-game as part of the same "Goal Poles Reached" Record (in English; Japanese is worded differently for courses cleared and only refers to goals in the two other tallies).
#{{User|DarkNight}} Per all.

==="Hidden goal"===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Since the term "Goal Pole" wasn't fully adopted until ''Super Mario 3D Land'', I think this is specifically referring to these Goal Poles, considering several of the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' Records still use "Goal" for short and it's closest to the Japanese ''Encyclopedia'' name.

==="Red flag"===

==="Red-flag exit"===

===Keep current name===

===Comments===
Just for the record since this was originally mentioned after the first proposal ended: I didn't see "secret Goal Pole" in the ''2'' or ''U'' Prima guides (though the phrase "Goal Pole at the secret exit" or some such comes up), but I did notice that it is consistently "red-flag exit" in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Player's Guide, <s>so use that or ''Wii'' manual's "hidden goal".</s> either way "red flag" from Prima's ''Nintendo DS'' Pocket Guide has the lowest priority of the sourced names. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:51, January 15, 2021 (EST)
@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 == Name ==
+{{talk}}
 Is the name official? Or is it fanmade? It would appear that the encyclopedia uses it. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:17, June 5, 2019 (EDT)
 :The ''New Super Mario Bros.'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' guides flat-out don't refer to it by a direct name, but the ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' guides refer to it as "Goal Pole" (sometimes "secret Goal Pole"). Maybe the article should be changed to "Goal Pole (red)" or "Goal Pole (secret)"? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:40, June 5, 2019 (EDT)
@@ Line 32: / Line 33: @@
 == Renaming the [[Red Flagpole]] page to Secret Goal Pole ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-9|don't rename}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-9|don't rename}}
 This proposal is about renaming a page that users wanted to rename for years. This page has to be rename for the following reasons:
 *It contains an unofficial names that has no source
@@ Line 73: / Line 74: @@
 == Decide on a name for this article ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|7-1-1-0-0|"Goal Pole (secret)"}}
+{{TPP}}
 Alright, time to do this the right way. Now that we have four official names for this subject, I think we ought to choose which one works for the article title.
@@ Line 85: / Line 86: @@
 #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Is the most consistent and, if you count the Purple Toad House at Secret Island, technically in-game as part of the same "Goal Poles Reached" Record (in English; Japanese is worded differently for courses cleared and only refers to goals in the two other tallies).
 #{{User|DarkNight}} Per all.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
-#{{User|AwdryFan1997}} While "red flag" is official, it's undescriptive and generic, so this conjectural title would be the better option for this wiki.
-#{{User|Duckfan77}} Per all.
 ==="Hidden goal"===
@@ Line 93: / Line 91: @@
 ==="Red flag"===
-#{{User|1JUST1}} Better go with an official name, Goal Pole (secret) is not official, it is just the term "Goal Pole" that is used in Prima guides, and the secret adjective to differentiate them.
 ==="Red-flag exit"===
@@ Line 101: / Line 98: @@
 ===Comments===
 Just for the record since this was originally mentioned after the first proposal ended: I didn't see "secret Goal Pole" in the ''2'' or ''U'' Prima guides (though the phrase "Goal Pole at the secret exit" or some such comes up), but I did notice that it is consistently "red-flag exit" in the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Player's Guide, <s>so use that or ''Wii'' manual's "hidden goal".</s> either way "red flag" from Prima's ''Nintendo DS'' Pocket Guide has the lowest priority of the sourced names. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:51, January 15, 2021 (EST)
-@{{User|1JUST1}} the ''Goal Pole (secret)'' notation means that the actual name of the object is ''Goal Pole'', the ''(secret)'' part is a disambiguation term used by the wiki to redirect to the various pages dedicated to objects sharing the same name, see for example [[Half-pipe (object)]]. In this case, since the Prima guide of ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' states ''Discover these secret exits and touch the Goal Pole at the end to unlock a hidden path on the World Map!'', the ''Goal Pole'' term is official and ''Goal Pole (secret)'' is a valid title of this page that does not use an unofficial name.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:36, January 17, 2021 (EST)
-@{{User|AwdryFan1997}} It's important for you to know that the proposed title isn't conjectural, if it was it wouldn't even be allowed considering the guides use a term to refer to the secret goal poles and any term used in a guide takes precedence over a conjectural name. The adjective between brackets is a disambiguation term, it's not part of the name.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:10, January 23, 2021 (EST)
-== New Super Luigi U's secret goal poles ==
-Can someone please add the Secret Goal Pole locations for New Super Luigi U to the main article? It would be very helpful. Thanks! {{unsigned|45.49.234.30}}
-:This is a wiki, you're allowed to edit the page or create an account and contribute yourself. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 06:53, August 18, 2022 (EDT)
-==Create an article for secret exits and merge this with both it and Goal Pole==
-{{settled TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|passed|3-12-0-0|Create Secret exit article, but do not merge Goal Pole (secret)}}
-Secret exits are undeniably a reoccurring concept in the Mario series. Every article for a level with one has a section discussing them. Other games have implemented them in direct reference to Mario (see: Shovel Knight: King of Cards). But rather than dedicating an article to them and covering the secret exits in each game and their different mechanics, we only talk about the secret exits in games that happen to use a red flagpole to denote them. ''Why?''
-Here's a list of games that feature secret exits, yet don't have red Goal Poles:
-*[[Super Mario World]]
-*[[Super Mario Land 2]]
-*[[Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition]] (has [[List of secret exit courses in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition|its own article]])
-*[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]]
-*[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]
-*[[Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3]]
-*[[Wario Land II]]
-*[[Wario Land: Shake It!]] (featured as [[Secret Map]]s, but worth a mention when discussing the concept)
-*[[Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze]]
-Covering an abstract gameplay concept in its own article isn't that strange when you consider we have an article for [[Game Over]]s. As for Goal Pole (secret), I think just merging it with the main article and adding the foreign names to a separate infobox at the bottom (in the same way [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)]]'s boss rematches are handled) is the best course of action, but I've created options for those who disagree (and even for those who agree with the merge, but not the secret exit page).
-The contents of Goal Pole (secret)'s article would be transplanted to {{fake link|Secret exit}}, while the actual discussion of red goal poles themselves would be merged into [[Goal Pole]].
-If this proposal passes, my next proposal will be merging [[List of secret exit courses in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition]] with it.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': October 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT
-===Support: Create Secret exit article and merge Goal Pole (secret)===
-#{{User|EvieMaybe}} primary choice.
-#{{User|MCD}} Isn't the secret goal pole just a differently coloured goal pole? Seems like something that could easily be covered on the main goal pole page. 90% of this page is just listing levels which they appear in, which would become redundant if we create a secret exit article because they'll all just be listed there.
-#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per MCD. This page is primarily just a list of secret exits, so having both this and a page dedicated to those would just be completely redundant.
-<s>{{User|Sparks}} Red Goal Poles are always secret exits, so merging it with the Secret Exit article itself makes sense. The Goal Pole article itself can mention the red one and link to it with a <code><nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki></code> template.</s>
-===Partial support: Create Secret exit article, do not merge Goal Pole (secret)===
-#{{User|EvieMaybe}} secondary choice.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} The better choice.
-#{{User|Axii}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Nintendo101}} Good idea. I think broad articles on recurring gameplay phenomena are great and we should have more of them. It would not be the end of the world if Goal Pole (secret) was merged with Goal Pole, but I personally would prefer objects recognized as discrete from one another receive dedicated articles. It is valid for others to feel differentially on that latter point, though.
-#{{User|Sparks}} Per all. Goal Pole (secret) is unique and I agree with Nintendo101.
-#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Nintendo101.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} If [[Game Over]] and [[Score]] have articles, why not Secret Exists? This feels like such a logical inclusion, and yet it hasn't been made yet.
-#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} This feels like an article that should already exist. The red-flag Goal Pole should still have its own article, though.
-#{{User|Arend}} ...wait, we DON'T have an article on secret exits yet?!
-#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: Per all.
-#{{User|Pizza Master}} This makes more sense than the first option. The secret exits have long existed before [[Goal Pole (secret)]] and merging the red-flag goal poles with {{Fake link|Secret exit}} wouldn't make much sense. Additionally, per Nintendo101.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} There should definitely be a general secret exit article that is separate from this article, I have never felt that the way it is currently handled made much sense. I am a bit conflicted on Goal Pole (secret), but I understand the reasoning that has been provided by other users for having it.
-===Partial support: Merge Goal Pole (secret), do not create Secret exit article===
-===Oppose: Do nothing===
-===Comments===
-{{@|Sparks}} unless I am reading the proposal incorrectly (which is definitely not unlikely), I think Option 1 would see Goal Pole (secret) merged with [[Goal Pole]], not with the secret exit article. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:45, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
-:edited the proposal to better clarify. this is why you proofread stuff you write after 9PM. [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 11:54, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
-::Changed my vote now. Sorry for not understanding before! {{User:Sparks/sig}} 11:59, October 1, 2024 (EDT)