Editing Talk:Goal Pole

I always thought it was a skull, and the remakes in Super Mario All-Stars clearly indicate that it is a skull. This skull likely represents that a fort or castle is under the control of the Koopa Troop. When Mario brings the flag down, he is performing a symbolic gesture signifying Bowser's rule in this location is over. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

Hmmm... you're probably right. You can add that if you want. {{User:CrystalYoshi/sig}} 14:36, 6 April 2008 (EDT)


Aren't flagpoles in SMG and SMG2? [[User:Revenge of kurbio|Revenge Of Kurbio]] ([[User talk:Revenge of kurbio|talk]]) 19:29, 4 August 2012 (EDT)

They are but don't work like these. They I think only appear in Throwback and Bowser's Galaxy Generator. {{User:YoshiGo99/sig}}

==Move Flagpole to Goal Pole==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|11-1}}
It's the newer name. According to [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name Changes|this]], we should always use the newer name.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Technickal}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 3, 2012 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|Technickal}} Per above.
#{{User|JORDAN DEBONO}} Goal Pole is used in NSMB2 and we should always update our info. Times change, and so do names of items, characters, etc. If we leave this to remain Flagpole, we might as well rename the article [[Mario]] to Jumpman with a redirect to take care of things.
#{{User|ToastUltimatum}} Flagpole has clearly been ditched in favour of Goal Pole, which is undisputably a cooler name anyway. '''Strongly Support''' the move.
#{{User|Electrical Bowser jr.}} If it's the new name, I'll support.
#{{user|MarioSmasher}} – WHAT DOES COUNT IN ENCYCLOPEDIAS LIKE THIS ONE? Recent names! And what we do? Move to the most recent names! This is it, not keeping to the old name just because it's "moar popular".
#{{User|Raven Effect}} having consulted the manual for New Super Mario Bros. 2 and seeing that they do indeed call it goal pole I have decided to change my vote based on the growing trend that Flagpole has indeed been renamed Goal Pole due to the consitancy of the rename.
#{{User|New Super Yoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Koopa K}} I now think we should do it, if we keep consistency and rename all the articles who's names have been consistently replaced.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per consistency I guess. We should follow that kind of stuff.
#{{User|LuigiBlubber}}It's da new name!
#{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}} per all

====Oppose====
<s>#{{User|Raven Effect}} this proposal [http://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:Queen_Bee#Queen_Bee_vs._Honey_Queen] sets a precedent that we should use the most commonly used name which in this case would be flag pole.</s> <br>
<s>#{{User|Koopa K}} Per Prince Ludwig, I think the most common name should be used. </s><br>
<s>#{{User|Tails777}} Per all.</s>
#{{User|Prince Ludwig}} Thinking about [[Queen Bee]] and [[Star]], I don't know. The Flagpole's old name can be remained like this. Even newer names are born after a recent release of a new game, we often keep the old name which we are used to the most.

====Comments====
Hmmm this one is tough, I can't decide, you've both made good arguments. At this point I am 50.01/49.99 for support. {{User|Koopa K}} August 21 2012 8:25 (EDT)

Question: In the proposal you mentioned Raven, someone mentioned that if she is called Honey Queen in another game, we should change it. As far as I know, the name "Goal Pole" was first used in Super Mario 3D Land (does someone have a NSMBWii manual?) and was later used in Mario Tennis Open and New Super Mario Bros. 2. It seems that Goal Pole is used more often than Flagpole. Even if they didn't read the instruction manual for Super Mario Bros., "flagpole" is often used by fans even after the name change.

Flagpole: used in Super Mario Bros., Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix<br>
Goal Pole: used in Super Mario 3D Land, Mario Tennis Open, New Super Mario Bros. 2

And in New Super Mario Bros. DS it's just called a "Goal".
{{User|Technickal}}
:Flagpole is also called that in The Lost Levels, BiS, MP8 and TTYD.{{User|Koopa K}}
::I've beaten TTYD and never seen it referred to by name...searched the [http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/920182-paper-mario-the-thousand-year-door/faqs/50110|game script] and couldn't find it. And in MP8 it's called "flag". I don't know about BiS though but you're probably right about Lost Levels. {{User|Technickal}}
:::In NSMBW it is just called the "Goal" I have the manual I know... {{User|Koopa K}}
'''@JORDAN DEBONO''' We don't always ''have'' to use the new name. Most of the time we just use the most common name, a good example of this is the [[Star]] which in recent games has been called the Super Star, but we didn't change the article. {{User|Koopa K}}

I say wait 1 more game, if it is confirmed to be Goal Pole in NSMBU then I will support. {{User|Koopa K}}

About that. New Super Mario Bros. U is coming out in December, and the deadline for this is September. So if you want to support or oppose, you need to do it now. {{User:Electrical Bowser jr./sig}}

:Good idea Koopa K but unfortunately the deadline is before. However, I think we ''(or Technickal)'' should make an exception here, letting the deadline stretch out to lets say Christmas eve or something. {{User|JORDAN DEBONO}}
::Two mistakes in that comment [[User:Electrical Bowser jr.|Electrical Bowser jr.]] some stuff can be confirmed before the release date and 2. I already opposed. {{User|Koopa K}}
:::I'll extend the deadline, but am I allowed to do that? {{User|Technickal}}
::::I don't think your allowed to unless it is a tie. {{User|Koopa K}}

Quote from New Super Mario Bros manual:
"Every course has a '''goal''' at the end. When you reach the end of a course, face the '''pole''' and jump as high as you can. The higher Mario grabs on to the pole, the more points you'll earn."
While it is not directly stated, it seems the name is Goal Pole.
{{User|Technickal}}
:Yeah but couldn't pole also mean Flagpole. Also your speculating quite a bit that just because it says Goal and Pole that means it's called goal pole. None the less I'm going to support due to the recent trend that the last 3 games have all called it Goal Pole.
{{unsigned|Raven Effect}}

Flagpole: SMB, SMBS, SMBLL, DDRMM, possibly TTYD, NSMBW and BIS.
Goal Pole: SM3DL, MTO, NSMB2, possibly NSMBW.
Goal: NSMB, possibly NSMBW
Points system: 1pt for a know game, .5 for possibly
Flagpole: 5.5pts
Goal Pole: 3.5pts
Goal: 1.5pts
(note: SMBS stands for [[Super Mario Bros. Special]] which is a mini-sequel to SMB. {{User|Koopa K}}
:Where are they called that in ''Bowser's Inside Story''? {{User|Technickal}}
::He said possibly, also to some of the people supporting you shouldn't just support because it's the most recent name you should support a name change because the new name has been consistently applied. {{User|Raven Effect}}
:::I agree with Raven, Flagpole is being phased out in favor of Goal Pole which has been constantly used in later games. {{User|Technickal}}
::::Are you saying we should call the [[Star]] article {{fake link|Super Star}} because that name has been consistently used (NSMBW, SM3DL, NSMB2.) {{User|Koopa K}}
:::::Perhaps, but that requires another proposal. {{User|Technickal}}
::::::Star to super star is a little different since MK7 calls it the star and since the name has varied from game to game with the star being called at least 3 different things. {{User|Raven Effect}}
:::::::Perhaps we should split Star and Super Star, since we did the same with [[Mushroom|Dash Mushroom]] and [[Super Mushroom]]. It was last referred to as a Starman in NSMB. But I'm getting off topic here, so let's leave it at that. {{User|Technickal}}
::::::::That's because those things do different things...But your right spitting something that does the exact same thing in every game into two different articles makes so much sense. {{User|Raven Effect}}

Should we rename [[Goomba's Shoe]] Kuribo's Shoe since it's more popular among fans? {{User|Technickal}}

:Technickal you know better than to write things like this on a totally different TPP and overall subject. Put your comment in its respective [[Talk:Goomba's Shoe|talk page]]. {{User|JORDAN DEBONO}}
::What I mean is, we used the more recent name instead of the more common name on this, so keeping this as Flagpole would be inconsistency. {{User|Technickal}}
:::Actually we already had a proposal about that [http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/17#Change_Goomba.27s_Shoe_to_Kuribo.27s_Shoe]. And I voted for this proposal because of a trend in the names well said trend doesn't exist with the goomba's shoe. {{User|Raven Effect}}

== Adding Headers? ==
Goal Pole page is a bit uncategorized... should we add all the sections for every game where it appears like in [[Boost Pad]] page? {{User|Tsunami}}

== 3D games ==

<gallery>
SMASSMBFlagpoleSprite.png
SM64 Asset Model Flagpole.png
SMS Asset Model Flagpole.png
SM64DS Flagpole.png
SMG Flagpole.png
</gallery>
The flags seen at the end of race/obstacle courses in the 3D games are, for all intents and purposes, an adaptation of the same object. Not only are they flagpoles that functionally act as a goal, Mario can climb up and slide down them. This goes extra for the ''Galaxy'' ones, considering the design of that block at the bottom is a pretty clear reference to the "stairblocks" from ''Super Mario Bros.'' that appear beneath them. I also wouldn't consider the symbol on the flag itself to matter in this case, as in many spinoff games, they're blank or have a mushroom design. At the very least, if the "level up" flags from the M&L games and the MP8 thing are to be included here, these should as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:29, January 10, 2025 (EST)

:To begin with, I apologize if my removal of your contributions to the Goal Pole article seemed hasty. They were well-written and I appreciate the work you did. But I disagree on these specific flagpoles being the same exact object. The impression I have is that the Goal Pole is a very specific type of object like a Super Mushroom, ? Block, or Warp Pipe. It is important to the series iconography and has very specific mechanical connotations that are not met by these poles at all. Beyond our own guidelines on kitchen sinks, I think it would be misrepresentative of what a Goal Pole is to include these flagpoles from ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', and ''Super Mario Galaxy''. It is more than just looks, in the same way not every red {{wp|amanita}}-adjacent mushroom in the franchise (or even every red amanita-adjacent mushroom ''power-up'') is the Super Mushroom.
:To me, within a mainline platformer, a Goal Pole would have to:
:#End the level when touched.
:#Have the flag slide down when grabbed.
:#Provide a certain amount of points or other incentive based on how high the player character is when they touch the flagpole.
:#At minimum, be recognized in official paratext as a ゴールポール (''Gōru Pōru'', Goal Pole) in Japanese.
:Hopefully none of these are nitpicky. The problem with all of these poles is that:
:#'''None of them end the level when touched.''' Reaching the ones denoting the end point in the footraces with Koopa the Quick and Il Piantissimo can (but not always) satisfy the requirements of the mission, but you do not finish the level by touching it. You need to touch the Power Star or Shine Sprite respectively to actually complete the level. In ''Super Mario 64'' (I do not remember offhand if this is true in ''Sunshine''), this does not even always happen because Koopa the Quick does not accept the results if you use Warp Points on your way to the pole. In ''Super Mario Galaxy'', the flag near the end the Rolling Green Galaxy and the other ball-rolling galaxies does not even do anything: the Star Ball breaks because it reaches the final hole in the (pretty apparently) golf-course-themed course. I specify that because if one was looking for a true Goal Pole in these 3D platformers, or at least an intentional homage to one, you would probably expect the level it occurs in to be some sort of allusion to the original ''Super Mario Bros.'', not golf. After the Star Ball breaks, Mario can touch the pole, climb the pole, jump off of the pole... without anything happening. Its not even the only pole in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' with a flag that is fastened to a stairblock, and ones appear in ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' [[:File:SMG2 Screenshot Flagpole.png|in groups, and without even being near the end of any galaxies]] (all the while looking even more like the Goal Poles from the 2D platformers than the golf ones from the first ''Galaxy''). So generally, these are more like "target" poles than legitimate Goal Poles: they are the direction the player should head for, but you are not ending the level by reaching them. Its the Power Star or Shine Sprite that does that.
:#'''The flag does not slide down when it is touched.''' Flag is unaffected in these games.
:#'''<u>None of them provide any rewarding incentive for reaching the top of the pole.</u>''' This one is pretty important, because in my view this is ''the'' most essential characteristic of a Goal Pole regardless of the game. This is why it was invented, and is the basis for other types of goals in the series like the Giant Gate or Bonus Bell. The higher you are on the pole, the bigger the reward. Outside of ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'', it is a score and 1-Up Mushrooms. Every single one of these flags is missing this trait (again, with the ones in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' not even doing anything to finish the level).
:#'''None of these poles are called "Goal Poles" in Japanese''', or at least in the material available to me, which includes ''Super Mario 64 Complete'' and the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''. I am perfectly open to being wrong if the publisher and developers explicitly clarifies that these are Goal Poles in the material they oversaw for publication. It just means my impression on what defines a Goal Pole is narrower than the actual makers of the games. But if any of these flagpoles were legitimately the same object as Goal Poles, the encyclopedia would probably go to lengths to point this out given it is a compendium for the whole series, and lists Goal Poles for the games in which they unambiguously appear like ''New Super Mario Bros.'' and ''Super Mario 3D World''. But they do not do this for ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', or ''Super Mario Galaxy''. I don't think the object section is wholly complete for at least some of the games in the encyclopedia, but given how iconic Goal Poles are to Mario, you'd think this would be one of the ones they'd prioritize highlighting in the text - or at least I would. But they don't do that.
:If these were not platformers in the ''Super Mario'' series, the same series of games that introduced the Goal Pole in the first place, and it was just a visual homage like we see in ''Animal Crossing'', ''Super Smash Bros.'', or ''LEGO City'', that would be one thing. Those are contexts clearly alluding to the first ''Super Mario Bros.'' But these specific flagpoles from ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', and ''Super Mario Galaxy'' are not legitimate Goal Poles: they are just poles that happen to have flags at their tops. I'd be curious to know your thoughts (as well as the thoughts of others) on whether my impression of what differentiates a Goal Pole from just a normal pole is shared. If I were you, I would incorporate the information you compiled into our [[pole]] article given it is very recurring object and the article we have for it is quite sparse. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:29, January 10, 2025 (EST)
::Thing here is, a lot of those attributes were hardly set-in-stone at the time. They wouldn't really be thus until the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games, considering SMB3 and SMW used much different level goals. The Goal Poal cameo in MLSS didn't move the flag despite being able to be slid on, for example, the one in Melee isn't interacted with at all, and the one in TTYD at best gets ''knocked'' out of the way. I see this more like how in SM64, [[Chain-Link|wire net]]s were now suddenly unable to be climbed from the side, only the bottom, and were used more as a thing to vanish through, as well as the numerous different properties [[1-Up Mushroom]]s (and in the remake, [[Super Mushroom]]s) were given. Also, considering the previously established statement that they wanted to use the poles as the level goals in SM64 but went with stars instead, the impression I get at least is that they left them in for those challenges just so they could have them appear at all, while the SMG one is (as previously established) an undeniable visual homage (certainly a clearer one than the M&L level-up flagpoles that barely resemble them). Also, the SMG ones ''do'' provide an incentive to reach the top: that's quite consistently where the star goes at the end of the rolling ball areas, so you physically have to climb to the tip to finish the stage. Besides, [[Checkpoint Flag]] went from a suddenly appearing icon in NSMB to a consistently present physical interactive object in all later games, so I don't see how this situation is much different from that one. (Regarding the JP name thing, the same could be said for a lot of what's on the [[! Switch]] article; the standard ones in SM64 are just "switch" in Japan, like the ones in the ''Yoshi'' games.) So unless you propose to make a dedicated "flagpole" article for "the rest" (including a lot of what's already on this page), I'd prefer it go here rather than be awkwardly lumped on the "pole" page with things like the moving caution-striped things from Dire, Dire Docks, or the orange squared generic poles in ''Galaxy''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:14, January 10, 2025 (EST)
:::I think the Goal Pole is a lot more discrete of an object than something like chain-link fencing (again, I wouldn't support lumping generic pipes into the Warp Pipe article), and its role was certainly well-defined by the time ''Super Mario Galaxy'' was released. But regardless, while I am not personally keen on establishing a generic flagpole article (I do not personally see much intended interrelatedness between independently conceived, vaguely flagpoles, except for maybe the ones from ''Mario 64'' and ''Sunshine'' both marking the ends of footraces; I think it'd be more interesting on the main Pole article because that is mechanically what these things in SM64, SMS, and SMG are), I would do that before putting them here. Goal Poles are not generic subjects, and I'd rather we not treat it like one. I think part of the reason why this article has some of the contents it does is because NoA localized this subject simply as a "flagpole" at some point, and the wiki userbase interpreted it as such (hence why ''Mario Party 8'' Crank to Rank flagpoles are here despite not really have anything to do with this one are here). Little of its contents were scrutinized after its article name was moved to "Goal Pole."
:::And again, I do specify mainline platformers above. Recurring subjects sometimes have different roles depending on the genre they are in. I can see the ''Mario & Luigi'' flagpoles being intentional allusions to Goal Poles within their series. My expectations of how it would function and behave are a little more specific in platformers of the same series. (I am also happy to discuss splitting off some info on the ! Switch article.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:49, January 10, 2025 (EST)
::::And yet somehow, our roles in this debate are inverse compared to [[Talk:Fluff (object)|this one]] (compared to which these are ''far'' more similar to each other). But I digress. I feel that flagpoles that are used in the context of "being the goalpost" belong on here without having to check a bunch of specific boxes, and "flagpole that act as a goal" is as generic as "giant button with an exclamation point on it." They just make more sense here than on a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with flags ''or'' goals. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:56, January 10, 2025 (EST)
:::::(edit conflict) The Goal Pole seems to be an established object here, which makes the other goal objects seem strange to be lumped in here. It's a similar case where [[Dolphin]] and [[Penguin]] list only a particular design of a character rather than include all penguins and dolphins. I further argue that the design of a small triangle flag on a long pole should also be another defining factor (LEGO Mario makes this rectangular but every other component of this design makes it still recognizable). I would either personally exclude the [[Crank to Rank]] and the ''Mario & Luigi'' experience points indicator outside of a footnote; they don't count as appearances for Goal Pole otherwise. Big Flag Pole should also be split, being a special variant of this flag pole. While the rest do seem to be interactable gameplay objects and should probably be mentioned somewhere, I don't think pole is the ideal space for them either. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:08, January 10, 2025 (EST)
:::::Your position on the Fluff article is completely reasonable - the language used for them in the encyclopedia is what gives me pause for that page. This is a little more discrete of a case, or at least in my view. Because what constitutes as a "goal" is mechanically pretty specific in the platformers, and these flagpoles don't satisfy that, as I outline above. By incentive, I didn't mean incentive to ascend the pole: I mean if you jump for it, and hit the top, you are given a high score or 1-Up before you descend, at which point you finish the level. If you jump for it and only hit it midway or the bottom, you get a reduced score or something less impressive. None of these flags are like that. In ''Super Mario Galaxy'', you need to use the golf flag to get to the Star, but that Star is the goal. It's not the pole itself. I agree it is physically influenced by the Goal Pole. I notice the block: but I don't agree that makes it the same exact thing as a Goal Pole, nor do I agree a flag simply being an pennant with a ball at the top - like the flags in the footraces - makes it more of a Goal Pole either. Maybe visually inspired by it, but not the same thing. I again mention Super Mushrooms, which look quite similar to the [[Mushroom]]s from ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', [[Dash Mushroom]]s, and a few other 'shrooms. Their appearance in ''SMB2'' even achieves a comparable function. But that does not mean they are the same thing. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:10, January 10, 2025 (EST)
::::::Don't forget the [[SMB2 Mushroom]] of course, which looks ''quite'' similar to the Mushrooms in ''SMB2''. Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that Goal Pole is a very particular subject in ''Super Mario'' platformers that denote the end of each level with a fun ''whhooooop'' sound and congratulatory jingle. Otherwise, they are just [[pole]]s with flags on them. (Or not even that, in the case that they can't be climbed on at all.) [[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 23:31, January 10, 2025 (EST)
:::::::I would be fine with a separate "flagpole" article similar to how the Mushroom article functions, but I would not be fine with lumping them on pole. That's too far in the opposite direction of "discretion" in my book - you might as well include climbable [[tree]]s since they function the same as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:37, January 10, 2025 (EST)
::::::::If you wanted to make a generic flagpole article, I'm not going to stop you, but I agree with PopitTart that that information would be well-served on the normal pole article (which I will remind folks can use some fluffing!). Trees can be climbed, but they have the benefit of being listed as a discretely separate object from poles in things like the encyclopedia and has some quirks like concealing owls or dropping fruit. (Additionally, unlike a tree, a flagpole is very literally a pole. It just happens to be one that has a flag.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:10, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::[[Hook#Super Mario Sunshine|And this is a Dire, Dire Docks pole that just happens to have a hook.]] Same principle. :P [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:39, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::I mean honestly, yeah. TBH that's a very strange article... It even notes itself that the ''SMS'' hook is a pole with a hook on the bottom, and that the pole is the part that actually matters, even though that makes it entirely different functionally from the ''DKC2'' hooks.[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 00:49, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::Typically, if the object is recognized in Japanese text like the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' (as is the case with the hook), I trust it as intentionally distinct. Why are the hooks highlighted as distinct in ''Super Mario Sunshine'', while the moving poles from Dire, Dire Docks are not? This is something only the teams at Nintendo EPD know, though it may be related to the fact that static, featureless poles are very rare in ''Sunshine''. They ability to cling and ascend objects is not.  - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:57, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::Just chiming in to say this is definitely a case of the name being changed over time by NoJ, not NoA. Check the manuals for ''[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clv/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-HAAAJ.pdf Super Mario Bros.]'' (pg.6), ''[https://m1.nintendo.net/docvc/NTR/JPN/A2DJ/A2DJ_J.pdf New Super Mario Bros.]'' (pg.15) and ''[https://m1.nintendo.net/docvc/RVL/JPN/SMNJ/SMNJ_J.pdf New Super Mario Bros. Wii]'' (pg.16): the original object name was「ポール」(pole), albeit identified as the objective「ゴール」(goal). The idea to codify it as the catchier「ゴールポール」(Goal Pole) seems to have happened in or around ''Super Mario 3D Land''. ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' is a case where they use the new terminology in the old sections for brand unification over chronological accuracy (they also didn't name the "Super" Mushroom, "Fire" Flower or "Super" Star straight away; also, the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' object section doesn't include the Checkpoint Flag / midway point visualization, yet it's there in the original manual). It may not be a "Goal" Pole, strictly speaking, but the same can be said of the ''Super Mario Advance 4'' version, and other (flag)poles here were also designed without the now-traditional "course goal" element in mind. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:35, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::::That's good to clarify, though again, it is not just the name here, and if they thought the name "Goal Pole" made since to apply in retrospect to the flags in ''Super Mario Bros.'' and ''New Super Mario Bros.'', they had the opportunity to clarify/redefine these flags as "Goal Poles" in the encyclopedia, but they did not. Probably because they are not the same thing, in my view. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:25, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::::I think it's more because they're sort of extras in those games. Like how Rail Lifts were sometimes just classified as Lifts, and sometimes not, depending on what other Lifts existed in the game and some other arbitrary criterion we do not know. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:41, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::::Maybe it could be worth having a "flagpole (nongoal)" article for not-stage-clear-goal appearances, like how Mushroom, Star and Flower have other articles that aren't Super/Fire power-ups. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:16, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::::::I do suggest it, and it's a good place for flagpoles that reference the Goal Pole but otherwise are not Goal Pole, such as flags causing fireworks in [[Crank to Rank]]. {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:37, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::::::And I can see the utility of that, but like, we don't split the various uses [[Shine Sprite]] has had (and yes, that one is a purely fictitious element); meanwhile, [[Golden Banana]] is an utter mess. [[Key]]s are sometimes goals too, and if not given specific names are not split from non-goal ones either. Either way, these still technically qualify as the goals of a race or obstacle course, so the function is still there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:51, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::A Shine Sprite is only ever a Shine Sprite, and it sometimes serves different functions in different series/genres like ''Mario Kart''. All Goal Poles are flagpoles, but not all flagpoles are Goal Poles. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:04, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::Indeed. And these are Goals, they are Poles, they are Goal Poles. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:15, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::If they do not meet the criteria I outline above, and NCL have not recognized them as such, then I don't really think they do. Sorry. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:40, January 11, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::::::::::::And as LTL pointed out, a lot of that wasn't specifically codified yet, particularly the name. Cat Mario clambering up them and doing the handstand from the orb in 3DW is the same basic idea as normal Mario climbing and doing the handstand in those previous 3D games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:51, January 11, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::::::While nice context, I don't think it addresses the points I raised above. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:54, January 11, 2025 (EST)
<br>(resetting indent) I don't find said points to be necessary qualifications. Indeed, I find them quite arbitrary. That feels, to me, like saying the [[key]]s from the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games aren't actually keys because they never have a corresponding keyhole, or that [[Green Star]]s <small>(which I'll count too, Nintendo does not own a trademark on green-colored stars with eyes)</small> are different things in every one of their appearances due to their vastly different properties. I feel "flagpole inspired by the ones from SMB1 with the gimmicks adapted to that game's gameplay style <small>which includes by default the stars being the actual mission-enders</small>" to be a perfectly reasonable way to describe these, and perfectly reasonable to include on the article. Remember, them being specified as "goal" poles is a relatively recent invention, even in Japanese, and SMBE's editors are not the absolute authority on whether things can or should be grouped together. (Also, you yourself linked to them when you uploaded the original images...) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:32, January 11, 2025 (EST)

== What is the scope of the Goal Pole article? ==

{{TPP}}

It is clear above that Doc and I have some disagreement on what is most accurate to include on this article, which is fine. I do not want to relitigate everything above here, but please at least skim our exchange [[#3D games|above]]. However, I will reiterate that I think all Goal Poles are flagpoles, but not all flagpoles are Goal Poles. I do think this is a pretty narrowly defined subject on par with a [[? Block]], [[Fire Flower]], and [[Warp Pipe]] (and just as iconic), and looking slightly similar does not mean you are the same exact object, such as [[:File:SMG2 Screenshot Flagpole.png|this one]] from ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' that ends zero levels and is not even at the end of any of them. Making contact with the flagpoles in ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', or ''Super Mario Galaxy'' does not end their respective levels, and the player is not rewarded anything like a [[score]] for reaching the top. Nor do they slide back down. Maybe that is too narrow for you, but that is fine. It's why I made this proposal.

I offer four options, from broadest to narrowest.

For our article, a <u>Goal Pole</u> is:
#'''no different from a generic flagpole.''' This includes everything below, plus any other flagpole in the franchise.
#'''any flagpole that is the target of a level objective.''' This is the definition supported by Doc von Schmeltwick above. It includes everything below plus the targets in footrace-style missions from ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario Sunshine'', as well as the pin flag-styled flagpoles from ''Super Mario Galaxy'' that are fixed in [[Hard Block|stairblocks]].
#'''a very specific recurring flagpole in the series. It ends the level when touched, replaces the flag with the player character's, and gives the player a greater reward for touching the top than for touching the bottom.''' This is the definition I lay out above. It omits the ones from the 3D games (which I for shorthand will call "target flags"), but would still include explicit allusions to Goal Poles in other series like the [[:File:Flagpole ACGCN.png|furniture item]] in ''Animal Crossing'', the [[:File:SSB Mushroom Kingdom.png|cameo on the Mushroom Kingdom stage]] in ''Super Smash Bros.'', the [[:File:MK8 3DS Piranha Plant Slide Starting Line.png|cameo in Piranha Plant Pipeways]], and other subjects of that nature. I don't know offhand if it would include the ''Mario & Luigi'' flagpoles because I know recurring objects sometimes serve different roles in different genres and these flagpoles do look [[:File:MLPJ Victory.png|quite similar to Goal Poles]] in ''Paper Jam'', but I would not be opposed to them being split off if this option passed.
#'''Oppose: the article is fine as is and does not need any context clarified.'''

'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 26th, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===A Goal Pole is any generic flagpole===

===A Goal Pole is any flagpole that is the target of a level objective===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - 🎵''It's a goal! It's a pole! It's a goal pole!''🎵 Anyways, considering they were just considered "poles"/"flagpoles" at the time when SM64-through-SMG came out, I think not following ''highly specific'' criteria that was not yet written in stone is not a reason for them to be considered a different thing. More just [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness not-exactly-"early" installment weirdness]. As I said above, "I feel 'flagpole inspired by the ones from SMB1 with the gimmicks adapted to that game's gameplay style <small>which includes by default the stars being the actual mission-enders</small>' to be a perfectly reasonable way to describe these, and perfectly reasonable to include on the article," not to mention that SMG's pole and block are deliberately stylized after the originals from SMB (and the flag's symbol already varies from skull to mushroom to star to nothing at all to Bowser on the current page contents, so shell, Pianta, and golf course aren't outliers there). Also, reaching them in these games ''[https://youtu.be/ZOFZz9CO5ME?t=61 does]'' [https://youtu.be/CyzFcbBFQb8?t=71 play] [https://youtu.be/pi10SbgecVo?t=292 music]. Yes, it's not the same music as the SMB1 ones, but they didn't start reusing music all the time until the NSMB series - I float you [https://youtu.be/CD9S_cY_a1I the downright ''happy''-sounding death theme from ''Super Mario World''] that sounds nothing like the one from SMB1 and every NSMB game.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I lean here as they should be covered somewhere and have more in common with what'd be called Goal Poles than "flagless" poles. <small><small><small>Oh, are we doing music again? Ahem. "Per-per-per-per-per-per-peeer Doc, per-per-per-per-per-per-peeer Doc, per-per-per-per-per-per-peeer Doc, von Schmeltwiiiick~"</small></small></small>

===A Goal Pole is a very specific flagpole that ends the level when touched===
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|PopitTart}} [[Course Clear|If it's the end of each lev-el, and plays a musical jin-gle, then the flagpole you've got there... is a Goal Pole!]]
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} The poles in 64 and Sunshine are more generic appearances and it's not the only time I've seen a race course end that way, even far outside of Mario media.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal
#{{User|MBertie}} per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal. The Goal Pole is enough of a distinct and recurring element that it makes sense for them to have separate coverage from any generic flagpole that happens to show up.

===Oppose: no need to explicitly define coverage===

===Comments on Goal Pole coverage===
I guess if all else, the flagpoles Doc suggested to be included at least deserve a mention on the article, especially since the one article they're all currently situated on, [[Pole]], doesn't make note of these at all since they technically don't even fit there (none of these flagpoles are climbable).<br>Also, I think the ''Mario & Luigi'' flagpoles should stay. I'm pretty confident that they're supposed to reference the Goal Poles of the mainline ''Super Mario'' games, which makes these Exp. gauges extremely clever references. If not, I would find it extremely random for AlphaDream to model their Exp. gauge after some flagpoles if they have nothing to do with Goal Poles. {{User:Arend/sig}} 07:59, January 12, 2025 (EST)
:The flagpoles from SM64, SMS, and SMG are climbable. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:15, January 12, 2025 (EST)
::{{@|Arend}} to be clear, I would personally be fine with the ''Mario & Luigi'' flagpoles staying here. My position is neutral because I do not know those games as well as the mainline platformers. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:29, January 12, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Nightwicked Bowser}} - My interpretation, at least, is that even the ones from SMB1 take cues from those real-life "race mark end" flags, bringing their appearance in SM64 and the like full-circle. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:23, January 12, 2025 (EST)
:Has there ever been a statement about it being designed in relation to the [[Time Limit|timer]]? Could also be where the idea to call stages "courses" came from... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:15, January 12, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Nintendo101}} - One thing I want to ask, if the coverage is made heavily rigid, how will that affect [[Checkpoint Flag]]? The entity in the first ''New Super Mario Bros.'' is for all intents and purposes a completely different thing, being a floating icon that only appears after being reached rather than a constantly visible physical object - it's even ''more'' different than these are. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:30, January 12, 2025 (EST)
:Offhand, no, because their mechanical gameplay function does not seem different. The appearance from ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' onward just seems like a mechanical evolution of that. However, Checkpoint Flags are outside the scope of this proposal. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:29, January 12, 2025 (EST)
::This seems like just as much a mechanical evolution in my opinion, especially since SM3DW added traits like "climbable from the bottom to the top" from these ones to the NSMB-codified ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:37, January 12, 2025 (EST)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==(First topic)==
 I always thought it was a skull, and the remakes in Super Mario All-Stars clearly indicate that it is a skull. This skull likely represents that a fort or castle is under the control of the Koopa Troop. When Mario brings the flag down, he is performing a symbolic gesture signifying Bowser's rule in this location is over. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]
@@ Line 141: / Line 140: @@
 == What is the scope of the Goal Pole article? ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|0-2-11-0|Goal Poles are a very specific flagpole that ends the level when touched}}
+{{TPP}}
 It is clear above that Doc and I have some disagreement on what is most accurate to include on this article, which is fine. I do not want to relitigate everything above here, but please at least skim our exchange [[#3D games|above]]. However, I will reiterate that I think all Goal Poles are flagpoles, but not all flagpoles are Goal Poles. I do think this is a pretty narrowly defined subject on par with a [[? Block]], [[Fire Flower]], and [[Warp Pipe]] (and just as iconic), and looking slightly similar does not mean you are the same exact object, such as [[:File:SMG2 Screenshot Flagpole.png|this one]] from ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' that ends zero levels and is not even at the end of any of them. Making contact with the flagpoles in ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', or ''Super Mario Galaxy'' does not end their respective levels, and the player is not rewarded anything like a [[score]] for reaching the top. Nor do they slide back down. Maybe that is too narrow for you, but that is fine. It's why I made this proposal.
@@ Line 168: / Line 167: @@
 #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} The poles in 64 and Sunshine are more generic appearances and it's not the only time I've seen a race course end that way, even far outside of Mario media.
 #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal
+#{{User|MBertie}} per all.
 #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal. The Goal Pole is enough of a distinct and recurring element that it makes sense for them to have separate coverage from any generic flagpole that happens to show up.
-#{{User|Mario}} I would personally define my terms by visual design, or it can help supplement the above definitions. Goal Pole is a long flagpole with a small ball and a triangular flag at top, usually with a white insignia, with minor variations on the insignia, that is located near a castle of some sort. It is also usually on a small support structure. Though an exception applies: one Super Smash Bros. iteration lacks it, but it is otherwise recognizable enough due to surrounding context (it's at the end of the level referencing World 1-1 of Super Mario Bros.). While the LEGO iteration of it is a rectangular version, it's still recognizable enough and designed in otherwise the same manner as the rest. The same applies to the Mario & Luigi flags. I do believe a visual definition will help to unify the article, help inclusions like the flag cameos in Smash Bros and Animal Crossing and Nintendo HQ, and reclassify the Super Mario Galaxy one as a reference due to the similarities; and avoid inclusions like the Crank to Rank flags (or at least it's a reference. The Piranha Plant Slide one (from MK8 only) is similar case to the Galaxy one, seem more like reference than being trademark Goal Pole due to surrounding context (doesn't look like a goal Mario reaches and it's used as tower decoration, not being on top of a small base but I'm not going to entirely oppose its inclusion). I also advocate splitting [[Big Goal Pole]] due to being a variant of this Goal Pole. The resulting flagpoles that don't adequately fit the visual criteria can be relocated to [[Pole]] I believe, if not be at a hypothetical flagpole page.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per others; especially given the consideration for the rather obvious Goal Pole cameos in stuff like the ''Animal Crossing'' games, which while we realize that's a very weird sticking point to have... It's one we have. ;P
-#{{User|Rykitu}} If there isn't a goal at the pole, then why is it a Goal Pole?
-#{{User|LadySophie17}} Keep the Piranha Plant Slide ones, ditch the Crank to Rank ones. Split the Big one. On the fence on the ''Mario & Luigi'' ones, since I remember some of those are really far in appearance to the Goal Pole.
-#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
-#{{User|SComic}} Per All. The Goal Pole is a specific Design, with a specific function. I think that the other ones could just go to a generic "flagpole" article
 ===Oppose: no need to explicitly define coverage===
@@ Line 189: / Line 183: @@
 :Offhand, no, because their mechanical gameplay function does not seem different. The appearance from ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' onward just seems like a mechanical evolution of that. However, Checkpoint Flags are outside the scope of this proposal. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:29, January 12, 2025 (EST)
 ::This seems like just as much a mechanical evolution in my opinion, especially since SM3DW added traits like "climbable from the bottom to the top" from these ones to the NSMB-codified ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:37, January 12, 2025 (EST)
-:::The Goal Poles in ''Super Mario 3D World'' end the level when touched, replace the flag with that of the character, give the character a higher score towards the top of the pole than the bottom, and are even called Goal Poles in paratext. None of the flagpoles in ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', or ''Super Mario Galaxy'' do any of those things. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:41, January 12, 2025 (EST)
-::::They also have a sound effect, a whistling one, associated with them. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:56, January 12, 2025 (EST)
-:::::So? Combining traits is done all the time. A good example is [[Ukiki]], which seems to have started out as two disparate enemies. Also, the "replacing the flag" thing didn't happen at all until 3DL if I'm remembering right, so that's an additional trait combination. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:58, January 12, 2025 (EST)
-::::::Out of curiosity, would you consider the [[:File:Unknown name goal post.png|goal posts]] in the Wiggler Race levels from ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' to be [[Giant Gate]]s? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:37, January 12, 2025 (EST)
-:::::::I haven't played Wonder yet, but that does look suspiciously similar to a Giant Gate from SMW. Without the "tape"-that-looks-more-like-a-bar, at least. Both are likely based on rally/slalom gates in the same manner. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:18, January 12, 2025 (EST)
-::::::::I always thought the [[Giant Gate]]s and [[Midway Gate]]s were based on [https://www.google.nl/search?sca_esv=4fbe7c869920a6f3&q=rugby+goal&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0A6bwEop21ehxKWq5cj-cHaxUZOSO72WoU7KkLyB7O1BOnPTqc2lmP5Jtiku-C_ETuS3sociDRHPGNCwJbzshSCv-pE55bgoMOVO3V0fNkqYQpmP8VMsFRRavnPyt8NrmI-mL_WZQTU3ahgdkmu8nmlg-L7ER3c8yGe9e24A2yUiiucyHpDGEPwTNK5TC-1Fxk4iWoN&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE7O2uifOKAxWY0QIHHV8iE-4QtKgLegQIExAB&biw=1128&bih=707&dpr=2#vhid=2N71jGzh7V2t7M&vssid=mosaic rugby goals], given these are also two posts connected by a bar, and the fact that [[Chargin' Chuck|Football-playing Koopas]] were also introduced in the game and often guard these gates like how football players guard a football goal (and given that American Football was based on rugby). {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:07, January 13, 2025 (EST)