Editing Talk:Giant Wiggler

==Romanization==
According to {{media link|NAP-05 Hearts 10.png|''Mario Trump'' NAP-05 10 of Hearts}}, ハナチャン appears to be officially romanized with a hyphen, as Hana-chan. I don't think this is to split the word across lines, as in the [[Mario Playing Cards#NAP-05 (Characters Picture Book)|full deck]], other names such as Nokonoko are split without a hyphen. This would make the proper article name "Kyodai Hana-chan", right? [[User:AgentMuffin|AgentMuffin]] ([[User talk:AgentMuffin|talk]]) 01:43, July 28, 2019 (EDT)
:There are other cases where it's [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_wvWK9KxU&t=3m6s not] hyphenated, so a deck of cards isn't worth changing it over. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:22, July 28, 2019 (EDT)

==Should just be changed to "Giant Wiggler"==

I mean, it's Japanese name literally means Giant Wiggler. We had cases with Super Mario Land enemies like Piranha Plant having "Pakkun Flower" literally meaning the former. So why this? [[User:CastleResearch|CastleResearch]] ([[User talk:CastleResearch|talk]]) 15:05, December 1, 2019 (EST)
:Because we do not fan translate under any circumstance. Additionally, Nintendo seems to like to translate "Kyodai" to simply "Big," judging by [[Giant Land|Big Island]] and [[Boss Bass]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:06, December 1, 2019 (EST)
::So wouldn't that mean Big Wiggler and this one are essentially the same? Should we merge them? [[User:CastleResearch|CastleResearch]] ([[User talk:CastleResearch|talk]]) 15:12, December 1, 2019 (EST)
:::Potentially, but since a proposal split them, another proposal would be needed to re-merge them. I've come to disagree with some of the points made to split them, particularly the internal unused data one (as the same could be said of Micro Goombas in NSMBW and Big Boos in SMA4). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:14, December 1, 2019 (EST)
::::Another thing of note is that in Japanese NSMB, the only other "Kyodai" are the similarly larger-than-the-screen Mega Unagi, as well as the Mega Mario transformation and Mega Mushroom. The big Cheep-Cheeps, Deep-Cheeps, Dry Bones, Piranha Plants, Thwomps, and Whomps all use "Dai" instead, indicating that "Kyodai" was intended as a level above "Dai" in this game (though "Kyodai" had been used for simply "big" enemies in SMB3). Note that Mega Goomba in NSMB uses "Boss" like most of the other bosses in the game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:48, April 14, 2020 (EDT)

== Is it an enemy? ==

Can you die by touching its face? --[[Special:Contributions/58.176.43.120|58.176.43.120]] 23:37, March 3, 2022 (EST)

:No, but in the future please don't add something you're unsure about to the page before asking for verification. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 07:27, March 4, 2022 (EST)

== Proof that the Giant Wiggler is harmless ==

I don't have the DS anymore so I need a video showing if the Giant Wiggler is actually harmless or does it still damage you {{unsigned|ToadMushroom823}}

:See the previous section. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 09:42, June 25, 2023 (EDT)

== Can it be wall jumped at least? ==

If the Giant Wiggler is harmless, is it a solid enemy that can be wall jumped or is it semi-solid[[User:ToadMushroom823|ToadMushroom823]] ([[User talk:ToadMushroom823|talk]]) 22:36, June 26, 2023 (EDT)

==Merge with Big Wiggler==
{{TPP}}

This article is pretty much a stub, has a name that consists of a generic descriptor, and is even acknowledged in the current article as a specific [[Big Wiggler]]. The Big Wiggler article also has a ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'' section that links to this page. I overall don't really see any reason to keep these articles separate, as they are describing essentially the same entity which has only minor differences in appearance between games (number of segments in this case) that might be expected for a gameplay-relevant creature such as this, which serves as a platform in this particular game.

Looking further at the [[Talk:Big_Wiggler#Split_Kyodai_Hanachan_from_this_article|previous proposal]] that led to these articles being split to begin with, it seems like the split hinged largely on the point of the unused giant Wiggler enemy in ''New Super Mario Bros.''. While I might consider this a good argument if these Wigglers were actually in the released game to contrast with the rideable Giant Wiggler, they are ultimately unused, and so I can't see them as a good argument for keeping them separate — there doesn't seem to be strong reason to believe that these two variants of giant Wiggler were ever meant to appear together in the release game, as unused elements are often essentially prototypes for game elements that ultimately make it in, and in any case, they are not really part of the game as released.

Additionally, while the two Wigglers have different Japanese names, per LinkTheLefty in the last proposal, there is a lot of precedent for “Kyodai” and “Deka” being used inconsistently for examples such as [[Big Goomba]], [[Big Koopa Troopa]], and [[Mega Block]] – and these articles are merged on the wiki nonetheless.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Pseudo}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Fair enough, provided that the singular Giant Wiggler stays as a subsection on the Big Wiggler page.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense. We probably shouldn't be giving priority to unused content anyhoo. ;P
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Now that I think about it, I suppose this isn't a bad idea; I was just being conversative. Heck, Big Wigglers in general made their first appearance in this game.  
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per proposal.
<s>{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I don't necessarily stand by the previous proposal. As Doc points out a little after that [[Talk:Big Boo|here]], ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' has used ''Super Mario Bros. 3''-esque Mini Goombas but unused ''New Super Mario Bros.'' ones. Also consider [[Big Wiggler#Internal names|this]]: ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' internally uses basically the same name as the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' version, which wasn't known about in the previous proposal. The only ''Kyodai/Deka'' outlier I know of is Mega/Big Mushroom, and even then, Mega Mushroom has had several Japanese names and was at one point called ''Deka Kinoko'' anyway, just like ''Super Mario Maker'''s Big Mushroom. All in all, I no longer think this is strong enough to remain split.</s>

====Oppose====
<s>#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} The Wiggler has a totally different function to most Wigglers, actually being a ridable creature rather than an enemy, and has longer segments. In fact, the original proposal states as such, "The NSMB one is actually '''an ally as opposed to an enemy,''' is much bigger than the future appearances, '''has more segment than Big Wiggler,'''"</s>

====Comments====
The "big" prefixes are inconsistent between different games, but I think they tend to be consistent within each game. NSMB tends to use "dai" for its big enemies, as opposed to "kyodai", right? If so, there seems to be an intentional difference of degree here. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:34, October 17, 2023 (EDT)
:That's a good point, but the consistency didn't come in until ''Wii'' or ''2''; [https://imgur.com/dfDUNt6 here] is a scan of the original's Shogakukan book, for example, and you can see that Big Thwomp wasn't yet ''Deka Dossun'', and ''Kyodai Utsubo'' is used for giant Unagi. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:42, October 17, 2023 (EDT)
::Sure, but from what I can tell, "deka" wasn't used for big enemies yet as of this game, so Big Thwomp using "dai" isn't too noteworthy. The "Kyodai Utsubo" thing is interesting though. I guess they probably used "kyodai" for the Unagi and Wiggler due to their near-screen-filling size? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 08:16, October 17, 2023 (EDT)
:::If ''that'''s true, then ''Mega'' Goomba ''could'' be a carryover from when it was still a regular enemy, and some of these may have been intended to be ''Kyodai''/Mega-powered like ''3D Land'' / ''3D World'' would later do for the Tail/Cat enemies... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:04, October 17, 2023 (EDT)
::::@Pseudo I'm curious to know your take on this. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:48, October 20, 2023 (EDT)

@TheUndescribableGhost (and @ this argument in general) — I do not think that being an ally as opposed to an enemy is a relevant point toward keeping this as a separate article. [[Koopa Troopa]] has a completely different role and functionality in, say, ''[[Super Mario Kart]]'' as opposed to ''[[Super Mario World]]'', being a playable character instead of a generic enemy, but we still consider these to be the same character/species owing to appearing similarly, being named similarly, and so forth. Additionally, I do not think it would be unreasonable to consider ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]''{{'}}s Big Wigglers to be themselves rideable, since they can be safely bounced on and used to cross hazards. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 13:08, October 17, 2023 (EDT)

@TheUndescribableGhost: Maybe it's a bit unwise for me to say this considering it's coming out this Friday, but adding to what Pseudo had said, there's a big Wiggler with rollerskates in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' that you can have friendly races against. This Wiggler is not an enemy either and cannot hurt you, yet I don't think it will get a separate article either. In addition, there's a Wiggler who's a complete character in ''[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]]'' who Mario ends up befriending; not even that has its own separate article.<br>As for the amount of segments, that also doesn't matter. While Wigglers do typically have four segments, there have been instances where they have more or less segments (much like [[Pokey]]s), and we don't have those instances split either. For instance, in ''Mario Kart'', the playable Wiggler has three segments as opposed to four. When a Wiggler transforms into a [[Flutter]], they typically only have two segments left. There's Big Wigglers in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' with five segments. In ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', the Wiggler from the boss game [[Wiggler Bounce]] ends up with no less than ''ten'' segments.<br>Really, the only point I can see why to keep the split is merely because it's just '''huge''', a lot bigger than any other Wiggler in the franchise in fact; yet this is a very meritless point, considering that size changes can absolutely happen inbetween games. {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:48, October 18, 2023 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Romanization==
-According to {{file link|NAP-05 Hearts 10.png|''Mario Trump'' NAP-05 10 of Hearts}}, ハナチャン appears to be officially romanized with a hyphen, as Hana-chan. I don't think this is to split the word across lines, as in the [[Mario Playing Cards#NAP-05 (Characters Picture Book)|full deck]], other names such as Nokonoko are split without a hyphen. This would make the proper article name "Kyodai Hana-chan", right? [[User:AgentMuffin|AgentMuffin]] ([[User talk:AgentMuffin|talk]]) 01:43, July 28, 2019 (EDT)
+According to {{media link|NAP-05 Hearts 10.png|''Mario Trump'' NAP-05 10 of Hearts}}, ハナチャン appears to be officially romanized with a hyphen, as Hana-chan. I don't think this is to split the word across lines, as in the [[Mario Playing Cards#NAP-05 (Characters Picture Book)|full deck]], other names such as Nokonoko are split without a hyphen. This would make the proper article name "Kyodai Hana-chan", right? [[User:AgentMuffin|AgentMuffin]] ([[User talk:AgentMuffin|talk]]) 01:43, July 28, 2019 (EDT)
 :There are other cases where it's [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_wvWK9KxU&t=3m6s not] hyphenated, so a deck of cards isn't worth changing it over. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:22, July 28, 2019 (EDT)
@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 ==Merge with Big Wiggler==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|9-1|Merge with Big Wiggler}}
 This article is pretty much a stub, has a name that consists of a generic descriptor, and is even acknowledged in the current article as a specific [[Big Wiggler]]. The Big Wiggler article also has a ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'' section that links to this page. I overall don't really see any reason to keep these articles separate, as they are describing essentially the same entity which has only minor differences in appearance between games (number of segments in this case) that might be expected for a gameplay-relevant creature such as this, which serves as a platform in this particular game.
@@ Line 46: / Line 46: @@
 #{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Now that I think about it, I suppose this isn't a bad idea; I was just being conversative. Heck, Big Wigglers in general made their first appearance in this game.
 #{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Sparks}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Okapii}} Per proposal!
 <s>{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I don't necessarily stand by the previous proposal. As Doc points out a little after that [[Talk:Big Boo|here]], ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' has used ''Super Mario Bros. 3''-esque Mini Goombas but unused ''New Super Mario Bros.'' ones. Also consider [[Big Wiggler#Internal names|this]]: ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' internally uses basically the same name as the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' version, which wasn't known about in the previous proposal. The only ''Kyodai/Deka'' outlier I know of is Mega/Big Mushroom, and even then, Mega Mushroom has had several Japanese names and was at one point called ''Deka Kinoko'' anyway, just like ''Super Mario Maker'''s Big Mushroom. All in all, I no longer think this is strong enough to remain split.</s>
 ====Oppose====
-#{{User|Blinker}} Per my comments below.
 <s>#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} The Wiggler has a totally different function to most Wigglers, actually being a ridable creature rather than an enemy, and has longer segments. In fact, the original proposal states as such, "The NSMB one is actually '''an ally as opposed to an enemy,''' is much bigger than the future appearances, '''has more segment than Big Wiggler,'''"</s>
@@ Line 62: / Line 57: @@
 :::If ''that'''s true, then ''Mega'' Goomba ''could'' be a carryover from when it was still a regular enemy, and some of these may have been intended to be ''Kyodai''/Mega-powered like ''3D Land'' / ''3D World'' would later do for the Tail/Cat enemies... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:04, October 17, 2023 (EDT)
 ::::@Pseudo I'm curious to know your take on this. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:48, October 20, 2023 (EDT)
-:::::While I do see the point you have here about being potentially Mega Mushroom-powered, I personally think this is largely immaterial again due to being speculation drawn from pre-release content — it is known that the [[Mega Goomba]] boss in the final game originally grew upon touching a [[Super Mushroom]], but in the final game its Japanese name roughly translates to “Boss Goomba”, fitting the naming scheme for most of the game’s unique bosses ([[Cheepskipper]]’s Japanese name translates to “Boss Cheep Cheep”, for example, instead of being given a unique name as they were in the strategy guide that gave them an English name). The final game’s Giant Wiggler, and [[Mega Unagi]] for that matter are not shown actually transforming using a Mega Mushroom or other power-up and are not clearly connected to it in game in the way that ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]''{{'}}s [[Tail Goomba]]s or even ''[[Super Mario World]]''{{'}}s [[Super Koopa]]s are in their respective games, so I would be reticent to consider this point anything more than speculation. Additionally, while for the Mega Unagi at least I can see  a behavioral resemblance to [[Mega Mario]], since it destroys blocks and such, the Giant Wiggler on the other hand does not do this and doesn’t have any obvious Mega Mario-esque traits other than being very large, which I would not expect if it was meant to mimic Mega Mario’s abilities. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 23:37, October 20, 2023 (EDT)
-::::::Hm, I guess they may not literally be Mega-powered, but I don't think the shared naming scheme is a coincidence. After all, aside from SM64 (which used "deka", probably for consistency with Tiny-Huge Island being "Chibi-Deka Island"), this is as far as I'm aware the first mainline game to use something other than "kyodai" in the names of its big enemies, and is coincidentally the game where the Mega Mushroom is (sort of) introduced, and one of the main new features. Meaning the only instances of the word "kyodai" are in the names of Mega Mario, the Mega Mushroom, and these two enemies. (I suppose I'd be remiss not to point out that the big spike ball of all things apparently also uses "kyodai" in this game, and that's strange, I'm curious to know if/where that name appeared in that guide, but it's also arguably not an enemy so much as an obstacle, so...) [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:40, October 21, 2023 (EDT)
 @TheUndescribableGhost (and @ this argument in general) — I do not think that being an ally as opposed to an enemy is a relevant point toward keeping this as a separate article. [[Koopa Troopa]] has a completely different role and functionality in, say, ''[[Super Mario Kart]]'' as opposed to ''[[Super Mario World]]'', being a playable character instead of a generic enemy, but we still consider these to be the same character/species owing to appearing similarly, being named similarly, and so forth. Additionally, I do not think it would be unreasonable to consider ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]''{{'}}s Big Wigglers to be themselves rideable, since they can be safely bounced on and used to cross hazards. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 13:08, October 17, 2023 (EDT)
 @TheUndescribableGhost: Maybe it's a bit unwise for me to say this considering it's coming out this Friday, but adding to what Pseudo had said, there's a big Wiggler with rollerskates in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' that you can have friendly races against. This Wiggler is not an enemy either and cannot hurt you, yet I don't think it will get a separate article either. In addition, there's a Wiggler who's a complete character in ''[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]]'' who Mario ends up befriending; not even that has its own separate article.<br>As for the amount of segments, that also doesn't matter. While Wigglers do typically have four segments, there have been instances where they have more or less segments (much like [[Pokey]]s), and we don't have those instances split either. For instance, in ''Mario Kart'', the playable Wiggler has three segments as opposed to four. When a Wiggler transforms into a [[Flutter]], they typically only have two segments left. There's Big Wigglers in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' with five segments. In ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', the Wiggler from the boss game [[Wiggler Bounce]] ends up with no less than ''ten'' segments.<br>Really, the only point I can see why to keep the split is merely because it's just '''huge''', a lot bigger than any other Wiggler in the franchise in fact; yet this is a very meritless point, considering that size changes can absolutely happen inbetween games. {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:48, October 18, 2023 (EDT)
-:With ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' having come out since now, it has come to my attention that the big Wiggler with roller skates is called [[Racing Wiggler]]. However, the Wiggler is named as such because it's another racing character akin to [[Koopa the Quick]] and the [[Spooky Speedster]], not so much because it's not an enemy that can't hurt you; plus, Prince Florian tends to refer to him as simply "Wiggler" anyway. Regardless, the rest of my points should still apply. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:10, October 22, 2023 (EDT)
-@Pseudo Is the idea to have the Giant Wiggler separate from the rest of the Big Wiggler page, or not? just wondering --[[User:MegaBowser64|BOWSER...]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) 10:55, October 23, 2023 (EDT)
-:Given that it's the only one in New Super Mario Bros., it could easily just be covered in the NSMB section of the Big Wiggler article. Besides, this article is only three sentences long anyway, it's not like we'll be missing out on much if we merge it into that section. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:35, October 23, 2023 (EDT)
-::Yes, the intention would be to fold the information from the current Giant Wiggler article into the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' section of the Big Wiggler article, while probably stull mentioning that it was called a "'''giant Wiggler'''" in the Player's Guide and so forth. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 15:47, October 23, 2023 (EDT)