Editing Talk:Giant Bowser

Is this article's title conjectural? I know the SSBM deal makes it at least part conjecture... {{user:yellowYoshi398/sig}}

Did you say "Part Conjecture"?<br>[[User:Confused|<span style="color:Red;">I</span>]] [[User talk:Confused|<span style="color:Blue;">am</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Confused|<span style="color:Green;">Confused</span>]] 22:19, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

:You know, half conjecture; half not. There's a whole [[:Template:part conjecture|template]] for that. {{user:yellowYoshi398/sig}}

Um... Merge with [[Bowser]]??? {{User:Maxlover2/sig}}

I definitly say merge...... - [[User:Ultimatetoad|Ultimatetoad]]

Yeah, merging it with Bowser would make a lot of sense. Keep the screenshot though :P - {{User:Pokemon DP/sig}}

If it's a conjectural form, then it should be merged. {{User:Plumber/Pignature}} 15:16, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

:I'd have to disagee with the merge. Hope I'm not becoming A Link to the Past. http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif '''[[User:Paper Jorge|Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back!]]''' http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif

I'd say merge. But then again, we do have [[Giant Baby Bowser]].{{User:SpikeKnifeNeedleSword/sig}} 17:20, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

I request a merge with [[Bowser]]! {{User:Pokemon DP/sig}}

My opinion here is the same as in the [[Giant DK]] article. Besides, Giant Bowser is a boss in [[Melee]] and in [[New Super Mario Bros]]. So we should keep it. And I'm not saying this just because I wrote this article. --[[User:Xeze|Xeze]] 07:19, 6 February 2008 (EST)

I'd say merge. Maybe a proposal is in order? {{User:HyperToad/sig}}
:That name isn't even official. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 16:26, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

==Merge Giant Bowser to [[Bowser]]==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|21-12|merge giant bowser to bowser}}
I really don't see any reason to separate Giant Bowser from Bowser, since the two are clearly one and the same.

'''Proposer''': {{User|M&SG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 3, 2011 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|M&SG}} - Per my proposal.
#{{User|Zero777}} I am Zero! Regular and Giant Bowser are the same person. There are no difference except with size; even at that point, Mario can still beat him. And plus the title "Giant Bowser" vaguely fits for several size versions of Bowser throughout the games. The ONLY ''Official Giant Bowser'' we have will be the Giant version of Bowser in PM: TTYD. Zero signing out.
#{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} Per discussion, all, and proposal. The name is not even official.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per proposal; per the precedent set on [[Talk:Giant Kirby]]. This isn't a separate entity, and it's not really an official power-up either: Bowser's always using different things to grow (meat, a minigame in his [[Rump Command]], offscreen magic...), and his "giant" size varies drastically (i.e. [[:File:NSMB7.png|in ''NSMB'']] he's barely any bigger than he is [[:File:World8-CastleNSMB.png|normally]]). Growing huge is pretty much a standard [[Bowser#Powers and Abilities|ability]] of his by this point: it'd be better to give a succinct overview there, rather than keep this mass of unrelated "giant" situations. The fact that "Giant Bowser" appears more than the ''SSB''-only Giant forms is irrelevant, as is the part about plot significance: the Bowser page and the game pages themselves can describe what happens perfectly fine without a corresponding [[Template:stub|stub]] here to link to.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} In some games, we don't even know if Bowser is Giant Bowser or if it is just size inconsistency. Per all.
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per all.
#{{user|Bloc Partier}} - Per Walkazo. It keeps consistency. Plus, as far as I know, it's not exactly official.
#{{User|MarioMaster15}} Per all.
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
#{{User|Edofenrir}} - As far as the article goes, this name has never been officially used, making its status as an actual distinct form ambiguous. As for the comparison with Super Mario: Super Mario is a distinct form of Mario that Mario achieves through means that stay relatively '''consistent netween installments''' (the Super Mushroom). The term Super Mario also '''appears in the instruction booklets''' of every game that has that form. Giant Bowser does neither of those things, and therefore that comparison  does not make a valid counter-argument in this case.
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} - Per all.
#{{User|DKPetey99}} No different than Bowser, just a bigger form.
#{{User|Boowhoplaysgames}} Per all! Mega Bowser is no different. His name isn't even official.
#{{User|Ilovemarioandtoad}} Per my big bro.! We fought over this a few minutes a go, he won. Wasn't pretty, the outcome...
#{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per all instead!
#{{User|Castle Toad}} We used to have a ''Giant Baby Bowser'' article as well, but then it was merged with ''Baby Bowser'', because it's the same character with a different size. Also to be noted, there's a picture of Bowser taken from '''Super Princess Peach''', and I just checked the game and there, it's just referred to as "Bowser" in normal size and as "Bowser 2" in his bigger form.
#{{User|Nicke8}} Per Castle Toad.
#{{User|Ultrahammer5365}} I agree. The same logic applies here as with Giant Kirby and Giant DK.
#{{User|Superfiremario}} Per Zero777.
#{{User|DK and Diddy Kong vs Bowser and Bowser Jr.}} <s>Good idea</s> Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Yoshidude99}} They are different so this should stay.
#{{User|Kaptain K. Rool}} Per Yoshidude99.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. Giant Bowser has more appearences than Giant Donkey Kong and Giant Kirby.
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per Tails777.
#{{User|Bowser's luma}} Giant Kirby and Giant DK are just bigger forms of their respective characters, this, however, has a bigger impact on the storyline and appears in many games.
#{{User|Mariomario64}} If it appears in multiple games and affects the storyline of the game (similar to what Bowser's luma said), then it should be a separate article.
#{{User|Bop1996}} Per BL.
#{{User|Marioguy1}} - Mario gets big by eating [[Mushroom]] = [[Super Mario]]. Bowser gets big by eating [[Meat]] = Delete? No thx, my math skills refuse to allow me to support this equation (or proposal).
#{{User|Pokémon Trainer Mario}} Lets merge all of Marios forms into [[Mario]]?
#{{User|Magikrazy51}} This isn't like Giant DK and Giant Kirby, Giant Bowser is a tad more prominent (<-understatement).
#{{User|Iggykoopa}} per Pokemon trainer mario
#{{User|Phoenix}} I kinda see what you're saying, but at the same time I think Giant Bowser has too big of an impact on several Mario games to merge him...

===Comments===
I should probably state that I'm not talking about [[Giga Bowser]] (who is obviously a separate entity).  I only did up this proposal, because a similar one was done for Giant Kirby (which passed), along with Giant Donkey Kong (which seems likely to pass).  I would think the same reactions would be applied to Giant Bowser too. {{User:M&amp;SG/sig}} 09:54, 20 March 2011 (EDT)
:That sounds reasonable. I should agree with you on this. I think you're right, we do need to merge this. {{User:Kaptain K. Rool/sig}}
:We have the different articles for the different forms for Mario, Luigi, Yoshi and Wario. You realize that, right? {{User|Magikrazy51}}
::I am Zero! Like what for each one? Zero signing out. {{User|Zero777}}
:::We have Yoshi's forms from Mario Galaxy 2, we have pages for Tiny Wario, Wario-Man and all the forms from the Wario-Land series and we have pages for every single Mario form ever. {{User|Magikrazy51}}
:Shouldn't this at least be merged with Bowser? {{User:UltraMario3000/sig}}
::That is exactly what this is proposing. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}
:Orly? I thought the article was going to be deleted. I fail.{{User:UltraMario3000/sig}}
::No you don't, it's just a simple misunderstanding. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

I am Zero! I think Yoshidude99's oppose is invalid, and thus the next two opposers, since he doesn't really explain. Zero signing out. {{User|Zero777}}
:Zero777: I think he means that Giant Bowser appears more than Giant DK and Giant Kirby. {{User:Kaptain K. Rool/sig}}
::I am Zero! He didn't explain anything at all, he just say that he thinks they should be separate without an explanation, so his vote, and the following two voters, is invalid. Zero signing out. {{User|Zero777}}
:::@Kaptain, that was I, {{User|Magikrazy51}}, who talked about prominence. Not Yoshidude.

If anyone can prove that the name is completely official anywhere within the main Mario series (a.k.a. not SSB), I will gladly change my vote. - {{user|Bloc Partier}}

I am Zero! '''GUYS THIS IS ''GIANT'' BOWSER, NOT ''GIGA'' BOWSER!!!!''' Zero signing out. {{User|Zero777}}

Well we have a full list of his moves in Melee and he appears in other games too. Thers my explanation Zero777. --[[File:Yoshi4.jpeg|35px]][[User:Yoshidude99|Yoshidude99]]  03:55, 23 March 2011 (EDT)

:Zero777: We are just calling it Giga Bowser because we are used to the name and please don't shout at us like that. Also he kinda is related to Giga Bowser. It is probably a nickname. {{User|Kaptain K. Rool}}
::I am Zero! Yoshidude99, your argument is either unrelated or doesn't make sense and Kaptain K. Rool <small>you can't shout in the internet</small>, your argument is nothing more then fanism. Both of your arguments are invalid. Zero signing out. {{User|Zero777}}

'''@Pokemon Trainer Mario:''' I think your vote is invalid, the difference with it is that Mario's forms are official forms, while ''Giant'' Bowser's is not official. {{User|Zero777}}
:Invalid =/= Illogical, his vote is valid as he has never said that Bowser's form was official. P.S. you missed your "I am Zero!" {{User|Marioguy1}}

'''@Opposers:''' How is this proposal different from Giant DK or Giant Yoshi or Giant Kirby? {{User|Zero777}}
:This form (conjectural as it may be) appears in more games as a Bowser-specific form. DK never becomes giant except in Brawl, when he uses an item that can be used to make ''any'' character giant, same with Yoshi and Kirby. However there are no other characters that use Meat to grow, Bowser is unique in that concept and therefore it should be classified as a form. {{User|Marioguy1}}
::This only applies to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. What are we going to do with the rest of the information? {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}
:::I think it should be deleted, it just represents a larger-than-normal Bowser. The Meat-Bowser is the only time that it is a true power-up.{{User|Marioguy1}}

Well if we got rid of this article we woild have to delete quite a few  good quality images. The Bowser article is big enough anyway.--[[File:Yoshi4.jpeg|35px]][[User:Yoshidude99|Yoshidude99]]  05:34, 27 March 2011 (EDT)
:No, the images would go into [[Gallery:Bowser]]. Also, merging this page would only increase the Bowser article's length by a few sentences, and if you think about it, removing this page would actually ''decrease'' the total amount of space we're dedicating to Bowser around the wiki. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 10:35, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

== A Quandary ==

OK, there has been a new development. The Giant Bowser article is back, per [[Talk:Bowser#Make an article for Giant Bowser of Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story|this proposal]]. Now, the proposal is wanting to make an article for just the Giant Bowser of ''[[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]]''. But there were conversations during the duration of the proposal that ended with me wanting to list any instances of Bowser having drastic size changes within a game (so not his modest size changes between games or the small change in [[New Super Mario Bros.]]). From what I can tell, the original was a bit messy, mentioning any changes between games, as well as his size change when grabbing a [[Super Mushroom]] in the [[Super Smash Bros. (series)|Super Smash Bros. series]]. I definitely do not agree with the latter because then we would have to make an article for the large version of every character since everyone can grab a Super Mushroom and the former is a bad idea because there is not much continuity between Mario games, so a minor size change between games does not warrant a mention. In a nutshell, should the article stick with just the Giant Bowser from Inside Story and maybe Dream Team, since those are the only officially named ones, or should we make the article for all of Bowser's size changes within games? ([[New Super Mario Bros. (disambiguation)|New Super Mario Bros. series]], [[Super Princess Peach]], [[Super Mario Galaxy 2]], etc.)<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:04, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
:Before I can say anything, I need to see the article (BiS and maybe DT). {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 13:28, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
::As in you need me to create the new article or you need to see the old one? Just go to the history tab and click the second edit from the top, the last one before the page was turned into a redirect. It looks pretty bad. Giant Bowser has his own infobox, which just seems wrong, he's not a separate character. That, and it doesn't provide much information for anything except Melee, which is the section that shouldn't be covered at all!
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 13:56, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
:::I am talking about the one you need to recreate because you proposed it. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 14:04, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
::::Ah, I see. Just get to work on the Inside Story part and worry about the rest later? That makes more sense.
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 14:08, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
::::Article created. I gave it just as much information as [[Giant Luigi]]. Have a look.
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 15:30, 4 November 2016 (EDT)

If you are going to mention Giant Bowser X, why don't you add the normal version here and model it like the other normal giant battles. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 20:06, 7 November 2016 (EST)
:Actually, I didn't mention Giant Bowser X. I just noticed that that was added into the template by another user. I'll remove that until it's decided if we are going to include just what's here now, what's here now + Dream Team, or every instance of significant enlargement within one game.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 22:19, 7 November 2016 (EST)
::I think Dream Team would be nice here. It is an official name (that and Giant Bowser X doesn't look good without a counterpart). {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 14:39, 11 November 2016 (EST)

:Just Giant Bowser's appearance in the Mario & Luigi series, with an {{tem|about}} linking to [[Bowser#Size]]. Otherwise we're basically going to end up resurrecting the old page.

:{{User:Shokora/sig}} 04:22, 13 November 2016 (EST)

::OK then. It's decided.
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:20, 13 November 2016 (EST)

:::Could someone with more knowledge of Dream Team add it in? We could also wait until I borrow it, but I'm not sure when that will be. It could be next week or next month.
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 18:49, 15 November 2016 (EST)
:Sure I was actually looking for a page to edit but yeah I will copy the stats over to the page. {{User:The RPG Gamer/sig}} 19:04, 15 November 2016 (EST)

In regards to Giant Bowser being the only officially named form, this isn't entirely accurate. As an example, here's the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii PRIMA Official Game Guide'' on pg. 171: "''When Super Bowser begins spitting fireballs, edge up against the right wall and jump over the fireballs to let them bypass you.'' [...] ''After you defeat Super Bowser, you gain access to World 9!''" There's also "Bowser 2" in ''Super Princess Peach'' (although the Glossary in the Japanese version just lists it as "Koopa" like the first entry), as well as "Mega Baby Bowser" seen in the ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' scrapbook. Should these cases be given their own articles as well? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:47, 12 January 2017 (EST)

:Interesting. The "Bowser 2" is probably just to differentiate it from normal Bowser, so it shouldn't be treated as a name, but the others... I'm not sure. It's a bit different, since the appearances listed here are named in-game. Your finds are in guides. I'm really not sure though.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 17:39, 22 March 2017 (EDT)
::The scrapbook and glossary are in-game features, though. I'll grant you that ''Super Princess Peach'' has a noticeably rushed localization, so "Bowser 2" seems more like a text test they forgot to remove. As for Super Bowser, the wiki doesn't discriminate names if there's no other good source, and plenty of article titles currently come from Prima material. It's not like Nintendo Power wasn't error-prone at times (as an example, the Prima ''Superstar Saga'' guide was higher quality overall compared to its Nintendo Power counterpart). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:30, 3 May 2017 (EDT)
:::To add to this, the internal filenames of ''Yoshi's New Island'' present another name: "Mega Koopa" (Mega Bowser), which can be found at <tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/megakoopa.bch.z</tt>. This is consistently used elsewhere (<tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/ev_kameck_for_megakoopa_apeear.bch.z</tt>, <tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/ev_megakoopa.bch.z</tt>, <tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/ev_megakoopa_model.bch.z</tt>, <tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/event/boss_megakoopa_appear01_r.csv</tt> & <tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/event/boss_megakoopa_appear02.csv</tt>). Like ''Yoshi's Woolly World'', the name "Mega Baby Koopa" (Mega Baby Bowser) also similarly shows up. This is on top of the name "Super Bowser" used for the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' Prima guide. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:45, 15 December 2017 (EST)

== Dream Team ==

Right now the article looks pretty good, but there's one thing left and I don't have the knowledge to add it. I was able to write in the details of his Dream Team battle, but I know zilch about how he grew. Could someone add it in?<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 20:17, 21 November 2016 (EST)
:Another question about Dream Team, is it OK to use Giant Bowser X's picture? I mean they look exactly the same, but the background is only ever shown behind Giant Bowser X, I think.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:46, 22 November 2016 (EST)
::Never mind. I got the needed info from Bowser's article.
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 13:34, 23 November 2016 (EST)
:::I think the picture should be changed, it would be weird having the image of Giant Bowser X and besides, an original one would be more representative. {{User:The RPG Gamer/sig}} 13:36, 23 November 2016 (EST)
::::I can't seem to find a picture of normal Giant Bowser.
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 13:51, 23 November 2016 (EST)
:::::We need a better image. The current one only shows about half of him. I'll try to get a better one.
:::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 22:24, 23 November 2016 (EST)
::::::I got a better image, but I have a question. Should he be facing the other way? Because I think the image I have is for left-handed gameplay and it looks weird to me (no offense to lefties, of course).
::::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 10:44, 24 November 2016 (EST)

== Quote ==

I can't find a quote from Giant Bowser. Could someone add one to the Bowser's Inside Story section? The article should be done after that.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 13:35, 23 November 2016 (EST)
:"That’s an order! (to Paraplonk)" "Leave it to me." "Instead of crying, why not get big too?!" | "The lake… (looks left) Back here, too!" "Man… What’s this guy’s body made of?" "Aw, you wanna fly away?! Tough luck, sucker!" "Attacking this dude’s body seems useless… Maybe the head?; Nice! He’s sinking! Now I can whale on his head!" | "What’s your deal?" "Huh? Fireworks? Real festive…; Huh? Nothing! Worst fireworks ever!" "Weird fireworks, pal… Real weird. Well… Moving on… Time to deal with your ugly mug!" "NOOO! That thing’s sucking me in! don’t even try it!" "Aw, that again?! Come ON! (they shot it up) Please! I blast that thing down with a fireball! (Bowser shots a fireball and it starts to come down) GAHAHA! See that? All Bowser, baby!". And that's all of the quotes I can find. I think you should do the third one of the last quote, but it is up to you.
:Note: [[Bowser's Castle]] | [[Tower of Yikk]] | [[Super Peach's Castle]]. ; separates time with nothing happening. ()s have notes about what happens in between.
:{{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 13:57, 23 November 2016 (EST)
::I'm thinking either "Instead of crying, why not get big too?!" or "Time to deal with your ugly mug!" or "GAHAHA! See that? All Bowser, baby!" Which do you think?
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 18:37, 23 November 2016 (EST)
:::I think the last one. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 18:40, 23 November 2016 (EST)
::::I think so too. I'll add it in and remove the construction template.
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 20:46, 23 November 2016 (EST)
::::I'll also add a quotes section. I think he says enough to have that.
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 20:49, 23 November 2016 (EST)
:::::Sounds good. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 22:05, 23 November 2016 (EST)

== Oh no ==

I just played through ''Bowser's Inside Story'' again. It seems I was wrong about him being referred to as Giant Bowser in-game. Is there a guide that refers to him as Giant Bowser? If not, this page may need to be deleted yet again or at least rethought, as [[Talk:Giant Bowser X#Uh-oh|there's some question as to his "official" name in ''Dream Team'']], as well. And what's to be done about the "Super Bowser" issue {{User|LinkTheLefty}} brought up up there?<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 14:30, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
:I'd say this article has enough information to stand on its own. If there is ''for sure'' no official name in the game (check save text, sometimes things pop up there), then a conjecture tag can be added. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:23, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
::I definitely think that deserves it's own article, probably covering even more games, if I had my way. I'm just wary of it because of its overwhelmingly unanimous deletion.
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 16:47, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
::Personally, I think this article would be fine covering info on every game in which Bowser has an obvious size change. For example, it would be silly to cover his larger-than-normal size in Mario Party games since we never actually see him growing, it's just his standard size in those games. But it would make sense to talk about the NSMB games, since we see him one size, then another. Of course, that's kind of what was going on when this page was first deleted, but maybe we could try again. It just seems silly to only cover the M&L games, especially if we discover that the form was never officially names there anyway.
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 16:59, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
:::I don't think there's any Save Block text that mentions the giant battles. I know that there isn't for the last three and for the first one, I think it just talks about the [[Sliding Punch]]. I don't think he's name din Dream Team either, because I rewatched that whole scene and they never call him Giant Bowser (though Bowser does say that he invented "'''transforming''' into a '''giant'''", where transforming implies changing into a separate form). And then there's the closely related [[Talk:Giant Bowser X#Uh-oh|Giant Bowser X issue]]. I think we'll need to slap a {{tem|conjecture}} tag on this. Then we need to talk about my above comment.
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:43, 23 April 2018 (EDT)

== Change this article's name and coverage or delete ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-3-7-0|only ''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'', ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', and ''New Super Mario Bros. 2''}}
This article was created under the assumption that Giant Bowser was officially named as such in the ''Mario & Luigi'' games. "Assumption" is a word which here means "I said Giant Bowser was the name and everyone took my word for it". I'm sorry to say that "delusion" would be a better word, as it is a word that means "I was completely wrong in saying that I knew the official name and I lead everyone to vote for a conjecturally named article with a weird amount of information."

Because it turns out, Giant Bowser is never referred to as such in any game, guide, movie, graphic novel, puppet show, or any official work ever, not even the M&L games. I was just plain wrong in believing it was called Giant Bowser in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story|BIS]]'', while I thought the name in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team|DT]]'' came from the fact that there is an X Boss named Giant Bowser X. Except there isn't a boss named Giant Bowser X, just Bowser X. (That issue is discussed [[Talk:Giant Bowser X#Uh-oh|here]].) So that means that this article has no official name. The only reason we chose to cover just these two game sis because we thought those were the games the name came from. Now that we know that that is false, there is no reason to cover only those two games.

It turns out, however, that there is an official name. The ''Prima'' guides for ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'' and ''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2|2]]'' refer to this form as '''Super Bowser'''. (Thanks to {{User|LinkTheLefty}} and {{User|Time Turner}} for that info.) So we have an official name, but only from the guides of two games. If the page stays, it will definitely be moved to '''Super Bowser'''. Beyond that, with the info we have, there are three options.

'''Cover all games with this form appearing:''' For this option, we move the page and cover every game in which ''Bowser has a significant size change within the given game''. For example, Bowser quite clearly appears one size in ''BIS'', then appears on a much larger scale. In ''[[Mario Party 10]]'', he seems to be far larger than in the platformers, but we won't cover that because we never actually see him growing or at any other size for that matter. We won't cover size changes between games here, since Bowser's size is often inconsistent. We would have to slap {{tem|part conjecture}} on the page for this option. To be specific, here are the games we are covering:
*''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]''
*''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]''
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2]]''
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]''
*''[[Mario Party 5]]''
*''[[Paper Mario]]''
*''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''
*''[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star]]''
*''[[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]]''
*''[[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team]]''
*''[[Super Princess Peach]]''
*''[[Yoshi's Island DS]]''
*''[[Yoshi's New Island]]''
'''Cover only NSMBW and 2:''' One of the grounds on which this article was previously deleted is that the way Bowser grows is inconsistent (for example, in ''BIS'', he grows when the Bros. power him up form the inside, while in ''DT'', he eats a bunch of meat). Therefore, the proposal says, each growth could be seen as a totally separate form. If that is the case, it could be argued that we should only recognize the size changes that have official names (those two ''NSMB'' games) as separate forms. We may also cover any other size changes brought on magic, (e.g., NSMBU) since that's how the officially named forms come about. Voters of this option may present their opinions on NSMBU.<br>
'''Cover only NSMBW, NSMB2, and BIS:''' Same as the previous option, but with ''BIS'' added, to stay consistent with the fact that [[Giant Luigi]] has an article.<br>
'''Delete the page and forget this ever happened:''' The quick-and-clean way. Just put the article out of its misery.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Ultimate Mr. L}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>May 8, 2018, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to May 15, 2018, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May 22, 2018, 23:59 GMT

===All games===
#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} This option makes the most sense to me.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} As long as the DT bestiary is fixed after this, and that Giant Bowser X article is merged with Bowser X, I’m in.  Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} It's a heavily-recurring form at this point and abridging it to oddly-specific instances just seems silly. Besides, the YI bosses are regarded as generic enlarged enemies in Japan, yet get their own articles nonetheless, why should this be any different?
#{{User|Sonic98}} Per Ultimate Mr L
#{{User|Camwood777}} - No growing, no go. Simple as that.

===Only NSMB Wii and 2===
#{{User|Alex95}} - The name Super Bowser only seems to be used in the ''NSMB'' guides, so it doesn't make much sense to me to list every instance of size change under this title when it's only in reference to a few games.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} I don't like the idea of covering all games mentioned. I would be satisfied if it was all instances of Giant Bowsers that are indeed different from the normal Bowser. However, per Alex95. I also would ideally like SMM to be covered too, but on a different article (Big Bowser) due to him not being the same size as Giant Bowser/Super Bowser, but still bigger than normal size. However, he is very similar to the regular Bowser.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Super Bowser is a very specific name used only in these two instances, whereas a Giant Bowser article has more general applicability and should be self-explanatory.

===Only NSMB Wii and 2 and BIS===
#{{User|Alex95}} - Per my above vote, but also since Giant Luigi has an article, and there is enough information unique to "Giant Bowser", I say we can slap a conjectural tag on the Giant Bowser page and make Super Bowser a separate thing.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Alex95.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Alex95.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Same as above. And still per Alex95.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Alex95.
#{{User|YoshiEgg1990}} Still per Alex95.
# {{User|John Denver Fan}} Per All.

===Delete===

===Comments===
Regarding ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'', Bowser changes size due to the power-ups, akin to [[Super Mario (form)|Super Mario]]. There's no name given for the form in game, but maybe in a guide. ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' Bowser's size change is due to the [[Sticker Comet]] crown or something, so I say the information on him is fine where it is. ''Super Princess Peach''{{'}}s Giant Bowser is just simply named "Bowser 2", but I'm not sure what causes the change, as the Vibe Scepter doesn't seem capable of doing something like that. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 13:08, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
:@Ultimate Mr. L: ''Yoshi's Island DS'', ''Yoshi's New Island'', and maybe the original ''New Super Mario Bros.'' should be added to that list. On that note, Mega Baby Bowser should really have a separate article as well.
:@Alex95: It's "Bowser 2" in the English version but just a second "Koopa" entry in the Japanese version, so I think it might just be a debugging oversight. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:35, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

Your third option has a discrepancy: In the description above, it says it's for just NSMBW, NSMB2, and BIS, while in the vote header, it says "NSMB games and BIS." Bowser grows larger at the end of all of the NSMB games, including the first, and in YNI. (You also left out YIDS and YNI in the list above...) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:47, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

:'''@Alex95 and anyone else voting for options 2 or 3''', should we include NSMBU, since it come about in the exact same way as Wii and 2?
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 14:13, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
::Is there confirmation of a name anywhere? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:43, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
:::According to Time Turner, the Prima guide just calls him "Bowser" But it seems silly not to cover it since he grows in the exact same manner as the other two games (magic).
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 15:52, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
::::NSMB and NSMBU are a bit of odd cases, since in the first one he's larger after being resurrected by Bowser Jr., <s>and in NSMBU he just grows offscreen.</s> In contrast, in the other two we see Bowser specifically being enlarged onscreen with magic. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:57, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::Scratch that, I just checked and there is a cutscene of Kamek using his magic on Bowser in NSMBU as well, so NSMB is the only oddball here. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:12, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

Also, how about ''Super Mario Sunshine''? He's huge during the battle there, and it's not intended to be the "normal" size for that game, as he's back to a more typical size in the closing cutscene. So it seems like a similar case to SMG2. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:43, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

:That's the one I was forgetting. Gracias.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:21, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
::You still haven't added YIDS or YNI though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:24, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
:::Done.
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:39, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
::::Are you able to use YouTube? If you can, searching for "(game name) final boss" will be a very good friend if you're to make the article full. Just a suggestion. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:44, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

I suppose ''Super Mario Maker'' would also count, or at least I think it might be more noticeable than the size difference in the original ''New Super Mario Bros.'' [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:22, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:No, we wouldn't cover that because that's just an enemy being enlarged with a Mushroom; you could do the same thing with a Goomba. It doesn't have any new attacks or anything. Part of why the original was deleted was because a lot of the article was about the giant Bowser in SSBM, which was nothing more than a bigger Bowser, no new attacks, no real role in the plot, just enlarged with a Mushroom in the same manner as any other playable character.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 21:35, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
::In ''Super Mario Maker'', the "Big" enemies are all the original enemy plus Super Mushroom, but we still call a spade a spade. Why wouldn't the first option cover it if a size increase is the distinguishing feature? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:50, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:::I suppose there's no real reason not to mention it. Should Option 1 also include SSB?
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 22:10, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
::::Are you referring to ''Melee''{{'}}s Adventure Mode's required final boss, with Giga Bowser being the optional one? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:15, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::Yes. And what about if someone playing as Bowser just randomly grabs a Mushroom in battle? Do we cover that and categorize it under "Playable Characters"?
:::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 22:17, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
::::::Already a playable character in BIS, so that's irrelevant. >_> [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:28, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::::..... Oh yeah. Giant Bowser's in a lot of games.
:::::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 22:32, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::::P.S. I love how we're discussing what to do in the case of Option 1 despite the fact that Option 3 is winning.
::::::I would say exclude the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series since Giga Bowser is its own unique design, the Super Mushroom's effect is bigger than in the ''Mario'' series, and those fighters are referred to as "Giant" forms. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:39, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::::We aren't talking about Giga Bowser, we're talking about the enlarged regular Bowser fought directly before him ._. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:41, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
::::::::Right, [[smashwiki:Giant Bowser|Giant Bowser]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:48, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
::::::::On second thought, if ''Super Smash Bros.'' is included as "all games" suggests, shouldn't that really make Giant Bowser the name of the article instead of Super Bowser? I mean, if the takeaway is the size increase, we might as well use the self-explanatory game that was actually used in some games, right? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:18, 28 April 2018 (EDT)
::::::::Wait, it was explicitly called Giant Bowser in SSB? If so, yes that should certainly be the article name, if in-game names take priority. But that's only if we decide to cover SSB, which I'm skeptical of.
::::::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:09, 28 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::Yes, the structure is "VS. ((nothing)/Team/Giant/Metal) (character name)." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:44, 28 April 2018 (EDT)
'''@Alex95''' You're saying we would keep the BIS info on this page, but we delete the DT info, correct?<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 21:40, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
:You say Giant Bowser X doesn't have the "Giant Bowser" name, but is that the same for the actual Giant Bowser battle? Regardless of the answer, the form in ''Dream Team'' is clearly a reference to the form in ''Bowser's Inside Story'', so I think it should stay. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:23, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
::The Giant Bosses' names never show up in-battle, except for dialogue. He's just called "Bowser" by Dreambert, leaving the X Boss for us to go on, but that's called Bowser X. I'm not so sure about it being a reference (though we cannot ignore his cry of "SHOWTIME!").
::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:07, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
:::"''Transforming into a giant... I invented that, pal!''" Sure seems like it's supposed to be the same transformation to me. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:10, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
::::I think he was referencing not just BIS, but Mario games in general, considering BIS was neither the first nor last time he grows. Giant forms of Bowser show up ''a lot''. I think he was referencing his frequent growths by saying he "invented" it, since that phrase is used to mean you're known for it.
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:17, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::Hm, not sure then. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:39, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
::::::Particularly as both NSMB and SPM feature "Mega" forms, and came out before BIS. Granted, there's also the Mega Mushroom in MP4, but he still became bigger in SMW2 (as Baby Bowser), PM64 (slightly), and ''Sunshine'' before even that... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:47, 27 April 2018 (EDT)

Bowser grows in Paper Mario too in the final battle after Kammy activates the Power Platform. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:25, 26 April 2018 (EDT)

We mustn't forget the readers for whom we are writing this wiki. I imagine that those who don't read this discussion will be quite confused as to why there are two articles for Giant Bowser (the name many fans know it as). Should issues like this be taken into account?<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:09, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
:{{tem|about}} or {{tem|distinguish}} is usually used to help lead readers in the right direction. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:11, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
::But....it's still the same thing. It's a scaled-up Bowser, regardless of the role and exact size. Bowser's normal size has been subject to change all over the place, as has his role, why should a form be different? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:28, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
:::Well, if the All Games option passes, they won't be needed anyway. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:39, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
::::Pass? I don't know the meaning of the word. I think I've created another Mega Mole vs Morty Mole war! (Though I kinda saw this coming.) Anyway, Options 1 and 3 were tied 3-3 this morning. Now they're 4-4. Considering there's an equal number of people voting for these options, both outcomes should be discussed (though a tie means nothing happens, at least not for 4 weeks).
::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:47, 27 April 2018 (EDT)
:::::....as in succeed? And no, there isn't any even remotely envenomed arguing going on here, so I wouldn't call it that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:59, 27 April 2018 (EDT)

This won't matter if Option 1 wins, but if an option involving moving the page to Super Bowser wins, I would like [[Talk:Mario Kart Wii#Recent change in terminology|this discussion]] be taken into account. To take that discussion's points, Giant Bowser should at least still receive a mention if Super Bowser is used because that's a name generally known by the Mario fandom (I think) and audience should really be one of our main concerns because we are writing this for fans. But we'll see where that discussion goes.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 22:11, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Since of course this is ending before E3, which means that most likely there won't be any new information about BIS remake until then. Which, this is included in that (In the direct where it was announced, he is called beefed up). So, either we need to get the second option more votes or just wait for it to tie. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:45, 19 May 2018 (EDT)

:I don't think I understand.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 21:33, 19 May 2018 (EDT)
::1. I am saying to those who are supporting to the third option. 2. I am saying the two options if no one else votes in option 3. Otherwise, most likely we will have more info by the time this gets proposed again. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 16:10, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

:::Are you saying that Option 3 will not work if he is officially named in BIS+BJJ?
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 17:31, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
::::No. If he is not. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 22:41, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
:::::Well, I'm confused.
:::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 10:46, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
::::::Huh? Well, basically, new information won't come until after the deadline, but probably before it is proposed again. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 13:54, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

Okay, so we have 13 voters. Half of 13 is 6.5 and Option 3 has 7. Can an option win by 0.5 votes?<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 23:39, 22 May 2018 (EDT)
:Yes, and it has been counted as that. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 09:26, 23 May 2018 (EDT)