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| ==Re-merge with [[Frog]]== | | ==Re-merge with [[Frog]]== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|5-9|keep split}} | | #Their Japanese name is simply derived from generic frog onomatopoeia. It's like calling cats "meows" or cows "[[Moo Moo]]s"; doesn't necessarily mean they're something different from the run-of-the-mill frog, cat, or cow. Croaks are such intrinsic aspects of a frog that the "geko" name can easily be interpreted as a {{wp|metonym}} for the animal. |
| #There is nothing in their appearance and behavior that sets them apart from generic frogs. They leap and soak in water, not unlike real frogs. | | #There is nothing in their appearance and behavior that sets them apart from generic frogs. They leap and soak in water, not unlike real frogs. |
| #Their Japanese name is simply derived from generic frog onomatopoeia. It's like calling cats "meows" or cows "[[Moo Moo]]s"; doesn't necessarily mean they're something different from the run-of-the-mill frog, cat, or cow. Croaks are such intrinsic aspects of a frog that the "geko" name can easily be interpreted as a {{wp|metonym}} for the animal.
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| #Apparently, the only source of their Japanese name is a licensed guide. Even if said guide were to give them a more "special" name, like "Jungle Frog" or "Cute Frog" or w/e, we don't know if it's also what the developers or the designer of this enemy envisioned and it feels deceptive to assume authority from a guide just because it's written in the same language as the game's original localization. | | #Apparently, the only source of their Japanese name is a licensed guide. Even if said guide were to give them a more "special" name, like "Jungle Frog" or "Cute Frog" or w/e, we don't know if it's also what the developers or the designer of this enemy envisioned and it feels deceptive to assume authority from a guide just because it's written in the same language as the game's original localization. |
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| ====Support==== | | ====Support==== |
| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} ribbit | | #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} ribbit |
| | #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Has nothing to set itself apart from regular frogs. |
| #{{User|Mario}} These don't have anything going for them to distinguish them from other frogs. I opposed splitting this to begin with. The other Yoshi's Story enemies? Meh. | | #{{User|Mario}} These don't have anything going for them to distinguish them from other frogs. I opposed splitting this to begin with. The other Yoshi's Story enemies? Meh. |
| #{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all. This frog looks and acts generic and I think would be better off inside a general frog article without a messy identifier. | | #{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all. This frog looks and acts generic and I think would be better off inside a general frog article without a messy identifier. |
| #{{User|MegaBowser64}} Purr all | | #{{User|MegaBowser64}} Purr all |
| #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal. Unlike [[Moo Moo]]s, which are named separately from cows, I don't see anything that differentiates these frogs from any other frog.
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| <s>#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Has nothing to set itself apart from regular frogs.</s>
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| ====Oppose==== | | ====Oppose==== |
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all and the reasons we had them split in the first place. | | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all and the reasons we had them split in the first place. |
| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all. | | #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all. |
| #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
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| <s>{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Blinker. I generally do not like this trend of lumping subjects together with discrete Japanese names because they are perceived as "generic".</s> | | <s>{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Blinker. I generally do not like this trend of lumping subjects together with discrete Japanese names because they are perceived as "generic".</s> |
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| Other arguments in your vote hinge on "the wiki already does this thing" which is a fallacy. Some of the subjects you brought up ought to be, in fact, treated differently than they are currently. | | Other arguments in your vote hinge on "the wiki already does this thing" which is a fallacy. Some of the subjects you brought up ought to be, in fact, treated differently than they are currently. |
| *Preying Mantas are not only called "jellyfish" in multiple Japanese guides from different times (as opposed to just one, which makes it more likely it is meant to be perceived as a generic jellyfish), there's nothing in their behavior that indicates some distinction from the real thing and the only strikingly fantastical liberty in their design is the pair of eyes, which {{file link|Jellyfish.png|doesn't quite imply it's meant to be something distinct}}. Seeing as the {{file link|SMW2_Guide_128.jpg|source}} of its English name tends to be quite whimsical in the naming of YI creatures, which [[Talk:Piscatory Pete#Merge to Cheep Cheep|has been thoroughly argued]] [[Toady#Merge to Toady|to be of little relevance]] [[Talk:Flopsy Fish#Merge Flopsy Fish with Cheep Cheep|to how these creatures]] [[Talk:Grinder (enemy)#Merge with Ukiki redux|are meant to be treated]], I think there's enough reason for Preying Mantas to be merged with Jellyfish; so that comparison to Frog (Yoshi's Story) falls apart. | | *Preying Mantas are not only called "jellyfish" in multiple Japanese guides from different times (as opposed to just one, which makes it more likely it is meant to be perceived as a generic jellyfish), there's nothing in their behavior that indicates some distinction from the real thing and the only strikingly fantastical liberty in their design is the pair of eyes, which {{media link|Jellyfish.png|doesn't quite imply it's meant to be something distinct}}. Seeing as the {{media link|SMW2_Guide_128.jpg|source}} of its English name tends to be quite whimsical in the naming of YI creatures, which [[Talk:Piscatory Pete#Merge to Cheep Cheep|has been thoroughly argued]] [[Toady#Merge to Toady|to be of little relevance]] [[Talk:Flopsy Fish#Merge Flopsy Fish with Cheep Cheep|to how these creatures]] [[Talk:Grinder (enemy)#Merge with Ukiki redux|are meant to be treated]], I think there's enough reason for Preying Mantas to be merged with Jellyfish; so that comparison to Frog (Yoshi's Story) falls apart. |
| *Bumblebee is just Frog (Yoshi's Story) v2.0. | | *Bumblebee is just Frog (Yoshi's Story) v2.0. |
| So yeah. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:20, May 24, 2024 (EDT) | | So yeah. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:20, May 24, 2024 (EDT) |
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| :I don't really get the aversion to looking to other similar cases for a precedent as to how we should handle this case ("whataboutism" as some might call it). That feels to me like a major part of many (maybe even most) split and merge debates on the wiki, since if we've been deciding to do something a certain way many times and deviating only once or twice, that's reason to reconsider if that deviation can be justified. Consistency on the wiki is good. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:16, May 25, 2024 (EDT) | | :I don't really get the aversion to looking to other similar cases for a precedent as to how we should handle this case ("whataboutism" as some might call it). That feels to me like a major part of many (maybe even most) split and merge debates on the wiki, since if we've been deciding to do something a certain way many times and deviating only once or twice, that's reason to reconsider if that deviation can be justified. Consistency on the wiki is good. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:16, May 25, 2024 (EDT) |
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| Okay, so, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I understand, your point is that this enemy is too uncreative and obscure to have a page of its own, as opposed to more unique or established enemies, hm? But, when talking about merging, isn't it more relevant to discuss whether the two pages are covering the same subject? Sure, there are exceptions like pages about groups of characters (eg. the Koopa Bros.), but in that case the article doesn't act like the characters are the same. So here, is this page covering the same subject as [[Frog]]? I'd say it isn't. Don't get me wrong, it's an impressively boring enemy concept, but it's still treated as a fictional creature. It is to frogs as Swoops and Keese are to bats, or as Bloopers are to squids. I mean, have you stopped to consider how boring Bloopers are as fictional creatures go? You know what I mean? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:05, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Strongly agreed — even if we see this as a perfectly generic frog in design and naming, it's still a unique enemy with unique behavior and a unique role in the game, and I would say that's enough to justify it having its own article even disregarding the other reasons people have mentioned, such as its unique Japanese name (which do serve as additional justification in my view, to be clear). {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:15, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::"Unique behavior" is a stretch as far as frogs go. Also, I'm curious as to what you mean by "unique enemy with a unique role in the game"--there's [[Do-Drop|one other enemy]] in Yoshi's Story who attacks by hopping around. Moreover, I'm not sure how that's even relevant here seeing as even the frogs covered on their own singular article have had various roles between games, with one instance also being an enemy, another being a [[Capture|capturable]] entity, and yet another being an NPC species in an RPG. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:08, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I think being a proper enemy inherently distinguishes the ''Yoshi's Story'' frog from the generic animal, which I perceive as neutral entities. This frog harms Yoshi on contact, and it can be eaten to produce an egg. I think those details alone provide enough substantive reason for a dedicated article. I personally am unsure if the ''Luigi's Mansion'' frog should even be covered here on similar grounds. But at least that one is categorically differentiated from the "proper" [[Ghost (Luigi's Mansion series)|ghost]] enemies in ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon''. (The game distinguishes the [[:File:LM ambient enemies.png|small animals]] from the ghosts in-game, in its paratext, and in the spin-off [[Luigi's Mansion Arcade|arcade game]].) This green frog enemy from ''Yoshi's Story'' is not presented as a lesser subject from the other damage-causing creatures in the game - it is just as much of an enemy as [[Shy Guy]]s and [[Pak E. Derm]]. ''Yoshi's Story''{{'}}s frogs are one of only seven enemies in the game that are favored by a particular colored Yoshi (green in this case - the only other enemy favored by the green Yoshi is [[Spike|Gabon]]). It rewards the player with more petals for the Flower Meter when eaten by a green Yoshi. The frogs are also one of two enemies endemic to [[Neuron Jungle]], the other being an [[Ick Worm]]. This is all in addition to having a categorically discrete name in the language of its country of origin. I understand the appeal of lumping it with generic frogs, but I do not think the opposition is being unreasonable in their reservations. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:05, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::As I said above, many of Mario's generic frogs can be just as well distinguished between appearances. The Super Mario Odyssey frog can be captured, conferring Mario the ability to jump much higher than usual, and is invulnerable to Mario's attacks, though giving one coin when stomped; it is also listed on an equal footing along with other capturable things in the game, calling into question just how generic it is meant to be perceived. The LM frog hurts you, but can be turned into a collectible coin by flashing it with the [[Strobulb]]. By far the most remarkable among these frogs are the NPCs in Super Mario RPG, who are actually sapient and can talk, with one frog character playing a non-insignificant role in the game's story. Wouldn't all these quirks call for a split of these instances? Otherwise it seems arbitrary to just pick out the Yoshi's Story frog on the criteria you listed. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:33, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::Unlike the ''Yoshi's Story'' character, the frogs in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' are not enemies (which holds more categorical weight to me). The are ambient wildlife on par with the [[small animal]]s, [[small bird]]s, [[Bird (traveling)|hawk]]s, and [[seagull|gulls]] also in the game, and thus do not contradict the inherent nature of a generic frog character, similar to the ones from ''Crafted World'' or ''Super Mario RPG''. (The "inherent nature" thing is ''my'' perception of a "generic frog". It is okay for others to interpret that differently. I am wrong all the time.) Additionally, it is part of the artistic intent of ''Super Mario Odyssey'' for those frogs to ''be'' generic. They are referred to as Kearu in Japanese, are physically identical to the {{wp|Japanese tree frog}}, and were designed with {{wp|realism (art)|realistic}} design principals in mind to surprise the player with the fact that they can take control of a normal animal. I'm not sure how I'd approach a split proposal for the ''Mario Odyssey'' frog if put in front of me, but I do not think it is a comparable situation. Regardless of its complexity, it is not an enemy, and it is suppose to be understood as a normal animal within its game. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:40, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :You are correct in your assessment that this frog concept is pretty mundane, what with all the [[Attacky Sack|spawns]] [[Neuron|of the]] {{file link|Yoshis Story Spiny Fish.png|devil}} inhabiting the same game, which I'd say is one reason to believe it indeed blends in with the usual cartoon frogs that have occasionally been featured in the franchise as gameplay elements. Its status as an enemy, for the time being, wouldn't change that perception, given the fact that Luigi's Mansion 2's frog is also functionally a health-draining obstacle--not to mention there has been at least [[Talk:Cannon#Article Split Proposal: the enemy cannon vs. the interactive cannon|one attempt]] at splitting a generic object based on its nature as an aid or an obstacle, which failed. In addition, unlike what happened to [[Goonie]]s (who may internationally go by "[[Seagull#Game & Watch Gallery series|albatrosses]]"), [[Urchin]]s (currently distinguished from [[Sea Urchin]]) or [[Sidesteppers]] (aka "[[crab]]s"), there has been no effort to expand upon and turn this frog enemy into a species with its own recognizable design within the Mario or Yoshi brand, and if that wasn't such a sticking point in the organization of subjects, multiple sections from the [[Frog]] article would've been split into their own pages by now, namely those regarding Mario Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 2. The Japanese name was pretty much the pivot of this particular split from the common Frog, which I contend to have been a misguided action given (a) the name's dubious origin in a licensed guidebook, and (b) itself being simply a generic interjection associated with the animal. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:53, May 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I see. Then, I have two things to say:
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| ::*First, you have been questioning the Japanese guide's trustworthiness, which is fair. But as you can see [[User talk:Somethingone#Re:Yoshi's Story|here]], a lot of names (''minobon'', ''tibiunabon''...) in the guide are corroborated by the enemies' internal names. Can't get much closer to the developers' intent than that. As such, I think we can safely trust the names given in the guide.
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| ::*Also, I still don't understand why it matters how "recognizable" the enemy is (or isn't, as the case may be). The frogs in Odyssey are just generic realistic frogs, and those in RPG are a fairy tale anthropomorphized interpretation of frogs, but they are still treated as, well, frogs. The Yoshi's Story enemy isn't. Yes, it's not particularly creative, but again, neither is Blooper. I dunno, either it is intended as a regular frog, or it isn't, and the fact they bothered to give it a name, however uncreative it might be, tells us that it isn't. I don't see how only appearing in one game, without a proper English name (keeping in mind that plenty of enemies in this game lacked proper English names), changes the fact that, in the context of this game, it's treated similarly to Blooper in SMB1.
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| ::[[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 08:34, May 27, 2024 (EDT)
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