Editing Talk:Flutter
From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.
| Latest revision | Your text | ||
| Line 9: | Line 9: | ||
== Merging with Wiggler...? == | == Merging with Wiggler...? == | ||
{{talk}} | |||
I don't see a strong enough reason to merge Flutter with Wiggler. Firstly, they are unique characters, one basically being the winged form of the other (and we do discern between all different versions of enemies, after all). I am aware that they share the same Japanese name - however, "Hana-chan" basically refers to Wiggler like a proper name. It's like calling Wiggler "Miss Flower", so when Wiggler transforms into a butterfly it keeps its name "Miss Flower". Finally, we have official localisations consistently referring to them as distinct characters. By merging Flutter into Wiggler, we'd have to keep switching back and forth discussing Wiggler and Flutter within sections, and it could get messy. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 16:51, March 23, 2019 (EDT) | I don't see a strong enough reason to merge Flutter with Wiggler. Firstly, they are unique characters, one basically being the winged form of the other (and we do discern between all different versions of enemies, after all). I am aware that they share the same Japanese name - however, "Hana-chan" basically refers to Wiggler like a proper name. It's like calling Wiggler "Miss Flower", so when Wiggler transforms into a butterfly it keeps its name "Miss Flower". Finally, we have official localisations consistently referring to them as distinct characters. By merging Flutter into Wiggler, we'd have to keep switching back and forth discussing Wiggler and Flutter within sections, and it could get messy. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 16:51, March 23, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Indeed. I'm generally for merging things with the same Japanese name that are intended to be based off each other, but this seems like a clear ''variation'' to me, like the Boo Buddy formations. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, March 23, 2019 (EDT) | :Indeed. I'm generally for merging things with the same Japanese name that are intended to be based off each other, but this seems like a clear ''variation'' to me, like the Boo Buddy formations. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, March 23, 2019 (EDT) | ||
| Line 22: | Line 23: | ||
:::::::::Imo, it's a bit speculative to assume Wigglers and Flutters are meant to be the same thing, considering how many "winged X" type enemies the Mario series has. If anything, I'd assume the guide used Wiggler's name generically, similar to what Prima did with [[Goomba (balloon)]]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 04:55, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | :::::::::Imo, it's a bit speculative to assume Wigglers and Flutters are meant to be the same thing, considering how many "winged X" type enemies the Mario series has. If anything, I'd assume the guide used Wiggler's name generically, similar to what Prima did with [[Goomba (balloon)]]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 04:55, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::@FOY Many people have spoken here and you are the only person to say they should be merged. Until we get a platformer game where they can switch on a whim or something like that, these should stay split. Chomp may be merged as it's a completely different situation, as they ''have'' been known to seemingly switch. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:04, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | :::::::::@FOY Many people have spoken here and you are the only person to say they should be merged. Until we get a platformer game where they can switch on a whim or something like that, these should stay split. Chomp may be merged as it's a completely different situation, as they ''have'' been known to seemingly switch. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:04, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::Granted, the [[Flutter | ::::::::::Granted, the [[Flutter Orb]] does seem to be called "Hana-chan Capsule", but that's because they're basically the same face but different body (and abilities). Even if by creator's intent they are meant to be the same entity, for convenience's sake we should keep them separate since Flutters would then be a unique form of Wiggler. (I still argue that "Hana-chan" is being used as a proper name here, it's like if you had a pet caterpillar and named it "Miss Flower", you probably wouldn't change its name when it turned into a butterfly. Or perhaps, a pet tadpole that grew into a frog.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:44, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::It's also worth mentioning that we usually split out winged variants of enemies from their normal counterparts (barring ''Super Mario Maker''). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:58, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | :::::::::::It's also worth mentioning that we usually split out winged variants of enemies from their normal counterparts (barring ''Super Mario Maker''). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:58, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::To be fair, the "Hana-chan Capsule" spawns a Wiggler first. It asks you for coins and once you give it enough coins, then it'll transform to Flutter. Edit: Also, that Japanese name is shared with the English name, being the "Wiggler Capsule", and the appearance of that capsule is a Wiggler, while the succeeding orb in Mario Party 6 is renamed ''and'' changed to Flutter (Flutters at the time had pink noses). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | :::::::::::To be fair, the "Hana-chan Capsule" spawns a Wiggler first. It asks you for coins and once you give it enough coins, then it'll transform to Flutter. Edit: Also, that Japanese name is shared with the English name, being the "Wiggler Capsule", and the appearance of that capsule is a Wiggler, while the succeeding orb in Mario Party 6 is renamed ''and'' changed to Flutter (Flutters at the time had pink noses). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | ||
| Line 48: | Line 49: | ||
:::::::::Indeed, going by that infobox, we should keep Wiggler and Flutter together to not imply they are a different species, I'd personally just leave ''Derived'' and ''Related'' so we don't need to find a proper term and keep things simple, without particular assumptions.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:11, March 27, 2019 (EDT) | :::::::::Indeed, going by that infobox, we should keep Wiggler and Flutter together to not imply they are a different species, I'd personally just leave ''Derived'' and ''Related'' so we don't need to find a proper term and keep things simple, without particular assumptions.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:11, March 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::The merge isn't a '''bad''' idea, but it also inevitably opens up a can of worms for merging other winged enemies with their non-winged counterparts, which is one of the reasons why I'd strongly advise '''against''' doing this. Heck, I'm surprised you didn't even mention [[Beach Koopa]], as they too have a similar Japanese name as their counterparts and are even less differentiable from their counterparts (not that I'd agree to merge that page either). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 15:23, April 5, 2019 (EDT) | ::::::::::The merge isn't a '''bad''' idea, but it also inevitably opens up a can of worms for merging other winged enemies with their non-winged counterparts, which is one of the reasons why I'd strongly advise '''against''' doing this. Heck, I'm surprised you didn't even mention [[Beach Koopa]], as they too have a similar Japanese name as their counterparts and are even less differentiable from their counterparts (not that I'd agree to merge that page either). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 15:23, April 5, 2019 (EDT) | ||
It's established that "species" is treated loosely in terms of Mario creatures, referring to any separate entities. Again, argumentum ad creatorsintentium is such a meaningless and vapid argument, can you stop using it? It's not a substitute for actual argument. In this specific case, it's completely counterproductive for us as an ''English'' wiki that documents clearly separate entities that happen to share a Japanese name. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | It's established that "species" is treated loosely in terms of Mario creatures, referring to any separate entities. Again, argumentum ad creatorsintentium is such a meaningless and vapid argument, can you stop using it? It's not a substitute for actual argument. In this specific case, it's completely counterproductive for us as an ''English'' wiki that documents clearly separate entities that happen to share a Japanese name. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Another problem with rigidly going to "creator's intent" is that many more recent arguments with it don't take into account the simple fact that intent can and usually does change. Quite regularly. Thy may have been intended as a simple alternate take on Wiggler ''back then'', but at this point, they're clearly intended as distinct, but close entities. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | :Another problem with rigidly going to "creator's intent" is that many more recent arguments with it don't take into account the simple fact that intent can and usually does change. Quite regularly. Thy may have been intended as a simple alternate take on Wiggler ''back then'', but at this point, they're clearly intended as distinct, but close entities. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::And sometimes, localizers make the more sensible call. It happens. Perhaps Japanese name should be used as a crutch for more ambiguous cases, but it just doesn't stand on its own. English name should take priority as most people would look up a creature based on an English name from, perhaps, a guide that has the name, and not from a Japanese guide or an otherwise obscure source. Flutter gets its own page, people aren't going to be confused about its relationship with Wigglers. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 17:41, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | ::And sometimes, localizers make the more sensible call. It happens. Perhaps Japanese name should be used as a crutch for more ambiguous cases, but it just doesn't stand on its own. English name should take priority as most people would look up a creature based on an English name from, perhaps, a guide that has the name, and not from a Japanese guide or an otherwise obscure source. Flutter gets its own page, people aren't going to be confused about its relationship with Wigglers. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 17:41, April 16, 2019 (EDT) | ||
