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| == Merging with Wiggler...? == | | == Merging with Wiggler...? == |
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| I don't see a strong enough reason to merge Flutter with Wiggler. Firstly, they are unique characters, one basically being the winged form of the other (and we do discern between all different versions of enemies, after all). I am aware that they share the same Japanese name - however, "Hana-chan" basically refers to Wiggler like a proper name. It's like calling Wiggler "Miss Flower", so when Wiggler transforms into a butterfly it keeps its name "Miss Flower". Finally, we have official localisations consistently referring to them as distinct characters. By merging Flutter into Wiggler, we'd have to keep switching back and forth discussing Wiggler and Flutter within sections, and it could get messy. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 16:51, March 23, 2019 (EDT) | | I don't see a strong enough reason to merge Flutter with Wiggler. Firstly, they are unique characters, one basically being the winged form of the other (and we do discern between all different versions of enemies, after all). I am aware that they share the same Japanese name - however, "Hana-chan" basically refers to Wiggler like a proper name. It's like calling Wiggler "Miss Flower", so when Wiggler transforms into a butterfly it keeps its name "Miss Flower". Finally, we have official localisations consistently referring to them as distinct characters. By merging Flutter into Wiggler, we'd have to keep switching back and forth discussing Wiggler and Flutter within sections, and it could get messy. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 16:51, March 23, 2019 (EDT) |
| :Indeed. I'm generally for merging things with the same Japanese name that are intended to be based off each other, but this seems like a clear ''variation'' to me, like the Boo Buddy formations. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, March 23, 2019 (EDT) | | :Indeed. I'm generally for merging things with the same Japanese name that are intended to be based off each other, but this seems like a clear ''variation'' to me, like the Boo Buddy formations. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, March 23, 2019 (EDT) |
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| :::::::::Imo, it's a bit speculative to assume Wigglers and Flutters are meant to be the same thing, considering how many "winged X" type enemies the Mario series has. If anything, I'd assume the guide used Wiggler's name generically, similar to what Prima did with [[Goomba (balloon)]]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 04:55, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | | :::::::::Imo, it's a bit speculative to assume Wigglers and Flutters are meant to be the same thing, considering how many "winged X" type enemies the Mario series has. If anything, I'd assume the guide used Wiggler's name generically, similar to what Prima did with [[Goomba (balloon)]]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 04:55, March 24, 2019 (EDT) |
| :::::::::@FOY Many people have spoken here and you are the only person to say they should be merged. Until we get a platformer game where they can switch on a whim or something like that, these should stay split. Chomp may be merged as it's a completely different situation, as they ''have'' been known to seemingly switch. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:04, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | | :::::::::@FOY Many people have spoken here and you are the only person to say they should be merged. Until we get a platformer game where they can switch on a whim or something like that, these should stay split. Chomp may be merged as it's a completely different situation, as they ''have'' been known to seemingly switch. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:04, March 24, 2019 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::Granted, the [[Flutter Orb|Futter Orb]] does seem to be called "Hana-chan Capsule", but that's because they're basically the same face but different body (and abilities). Even if by creator's intent they are meant to be the same entity, for convenience's sake we should keep them separate since Flutters would then be a unique form of Wiggler. (I still argue that "Hana-chan" is being used as a proper name here, it's like if you had a pet caterpillar and named it "Miss Flower", you probably wouldn't change its name when it turned into a butterfly. Or perhaps, a pet tadpole that grew into a frog.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:44, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | | ::::::::::Granted, the [[Futter Orb]] does seem to be called "Hana-chan Capsule", but that's because they're basically the same face but different body (and abilities). Even if by creator's intent they are meant to be the same entity, for convenience's sake we should keep them separate since Flutters would then be a unique form of Wiggler. (I still argue that "Hana-chan" is being used as a proper name here, it's like if you had a pet caterpillar and named it "Miss Flower", you probably wouldn't change its name when it turned into a butterfly. Or perhaps, a pet tadpole that grew into a frog.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:44, March 24, 2019 (EDT) |
| :::::::::::It's also worth mentioning that we usually split out winged variants of enemies from their normal counterparts (barring ''Super Mario Maker''). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:58, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | | :::::::::::It's also worth mentioning that we usually split out winged variants of enemies from their normal counterparts (barring ''Super Mario Maker''). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:58, March 24, 2019 (EDT) |
| :::::::::::To be fair, the "Hana-chan Capsule" spawns a Wiggler first. It asks you for coins and once you give it enough coins, then it'll transform to Flutter. Edit: Also, that Japanese name is shared with the English name, being the "Wiggler Capsule", and the appearance of that capsule is a Wiggler, while the succeeding orb in Mario Party 6 is renamed ''and'' changed to Flutter (Flutters at the time had pink noses). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| Out of curiosity, what is its quote in the Paper Mario game when it turns into a Flutter? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:24, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | | Out of curiosity, what is its quote in the Paper Mario game when it turns into a Flutter? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:24, March 24, 2019 (EDT) |
| :The thing at the top of the page. The change itself was offscreen. Unless you meant JP version, but you didn't say that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:36, March 24, 2019 (EDT) | | :The thing at the top of the page. The change itself was offscreen. Unless you meant JP version, but you didn't say that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:36, March 24, 2019 (EDT) |
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| ::I'd ask to {{User|SmokedChili}} to be sure about what does that Wiggler says in the Japanese version then. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:17, March 25, 2019 (EDT) | | ::I'd ask to {{User|SmokedChili}} to be sure about what does that Wiggler says in the Japanese version then. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:17, March 25, 2019 (EDT) |
| :::I think you're putting too much stock in the Japanese name. While, yes, Flutters were originally called "Flying Wigglers" and could've easily fit on the Wiggler page should this wiki been made around the time of ''Yoshi's Island'', that would not be the case today. In '''English''', the two characters have different names, different properties, different roles, and the only connection is Flutter "evolves" from a Wiggler. There are a few cases where [[Flutter Return|Wiggler can change back and forth]], but even then, it's more akin to how Mario turns into Super Mario. Flutter's an improved form of Wiggler in a similar fashion to Tanooki Mario being an improved form of Mario. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:34, March 25, 2019 (EDT) | | :::I think you're putting too much stock in the Japanese name. While, yes, Flutters were originally called "Flying Wigglers" and could've easily fit on the Wiggler page should this wiki been made around the time of ''Yoshi's Island'', that would not be the case today. In '''English''', the two characters have different names, different properties, different roles, and the only connection is Flutter "evolves" from a Wiggler. There are a few cases where [[Flutter Return|Wiggler can change back and forth]], but even then, it's more akin to how Mario turns into Super Mario. Flutter's an improved form of Wiggler in a similar fashion to Tanooki Mario being an improved form of Mario. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:34, March 25, 2019 (EDT) |
| ::::I'm not sure if "creator's intent" is the right phrase to go off of, but we do cover cases of inconsistent localization, which can be considered under "Name changes". Although [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8F%E3%83%8A%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%B3_(%E3%82%B2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC) Japanese Wikipedia] uses the name 「成虫のハナチャン」 (''Seichū no Hanachan'', or "Imago Wiggler"), but I don't know if that is a fan-name or if there is an official source. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:27, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
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| [https://youtu.be/UyDdkokZDmc?list=PLz4YmReicr_VChDuMycjPOxvs7Jgnh0Tg&t=484 The Japanese dialogue in ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star''] points to Flutter being an adult (「<span class=explain title="おとな">大人</span>」) ''Hana-chan'' as well as its true form (「<span class=explain title="ほんとう">本当</span>の<span class=explain title="すがた">姿</span>」), this is good for us as they're kept distinct enough that we don't have to worry too much about them having a different name in English, though both of them being ''Hana-chan'' is something that we have to keep in mind should Nintendo pull another ''Mario Power Tennis'' case. They definitely are not a different species.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:37, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
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| According to [[List of characters in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition]], there is both a "Wiggler & Flame Chomp" and "Flutter & FLame Chomp" unit. I wonder how the Japanese version handled that. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 21:53, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
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| :According to [http://pzdm.gamelandos.com/zukan.html this site] and [https://www41.atwiki.jp/pazdoramed/pages/60.html this site], their names are Wiggler & Flame Chomp (larva) (「ハナチャン・ケロンパ(ようちゅう)」) and Wiggler & Flame Chomp (imago) (「ハナチャン・ケロンパ(せいちゅう)」).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:46, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::Wikipedia Japan is unreliable (unless they found an actual source, i kinda wonder what does it says about the Spiked Fun Guy and Needlenoses), as far as i can tell. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:09, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::That's not Wikipedia, ergo your response makes no sense. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:25, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::No need to go on with the "ergo" part, still it's correct to state that my response didn't mention the Japanese Wikipedia, rather two independent online sites about ''Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition''. Since I couldn't find a video showcasing these units, I tried looking at the Japanese online sites that listed the units. The two I found are two different sites that are nonethless consistent on these names,it is thefore likely that those are the actual names used in the game. The name used for Flutter is also similar to the one found in the Japanese Wikipedia by {{User|LinkTheLefty}}, so the game is possibly the source of said name as well.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:40, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbkuL3p17Us&t=18m49s Gotcha] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GLIaU5jy8k&t=7m36s covered.] Names match. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 12:18, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::Thanks!--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:50, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::If those names are basically referring to the forms as "Wiggler (larval)" and "Wiggler (grown-up)" (a bit of interpretation there on my part), then I think it would be fine to keep Flutter separate, but make it clear that they are specifically the grown form of a Wiggler rather than a derived species (even though the rules for that are a bit loose). [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 23:05, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::[[Baby Cheep|Eh, not really]]. All the more reason to use "entity" instead of "species." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:24, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::::Indeed, going by that infobox, we should keep Wiggler and Flutter together to not imply they are a different species, I'd personally just leave ''Derived'' and ''Related'' so we don't need to find a proper term and keep things simple, without particular assumptions.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:11, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::The merge isn't a '''bad''' idea, but it also inevitably opens up a can of worms for merging other winged enemies with their non-winged counterparts, which is one of the reasons why I'd strongly advise '''against''' doing this. Heck, I'm surprised you didn't even mention [[Beach Koopa]], as they too have a similar Japanese name as their counterparts and are even less differentiable from their counterparts (not that I'd agree to merge that page either). {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 15:23, April 5, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::The fact that there ''is'' a Japanese distinction [Hana-chan (larval) and Hana-chan (imago)], in a game released as recent as 2015 (versus something from ten years prior), indicates that there is a strong basis to keep Wiggler and Flutter separate. Not only does this work for functional purposes (where Wigglers and Flutters differ in role and function in various games), but it's basically what we already do with things like [[Piranha Plant]] and [[Piranha Plant (potted)]]. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 22:17, April 17, 2019 (EDT)
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| It's established that "species" is treated loosely in terms of Mario creatures, referring to any separate entities. Again, argumentum ad creatorsintentium is such a meaningless and vapid argument, can you stop using it? It's not a substitute for actual argument. In this specific case, it's completely counterproductive for us as an ''English'' wiki that documents clearly separate entities that happen to share a Japanese name. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| :Another problem with rigidly going to "creator's intent" is that many more recent arguments with it don't take into account the simple fact that intent can and usually does change. Quite regularly. Thy may have been intended as a simple alternate take on Wiggler ''back then'', but at this point, they're clearly intended as distinct, but close entities. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::And sometimes, localizers make the more sensible call. It happens. Perhaps Japanese name should be used as a crutch for more ambiguous cases, but it just doesn't stand on its own. English name should take priority as most people would look up a creature based on an English name from, perhaps, a guide that has the name, and not from a Japanese guide or an otherwise obscure source. Flutter gets its own page, people aren't going to be confused about its relationship with Wigglers. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 17:41, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| Well i agree on this Flutter is just a form. not a completely different character. {{User:MediaVideoEditor856/sig}}
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| :For what it's worth, the internal name for this form of Wiggler is called "<tt>HanachanImago</tt>" in ''Yoshi's Crafted World'', which is a title where younger Wigglers do not exist. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:08, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::Assuming Wigglers weren't planned for the game and later scrapped, then this would show that the developers do treat Flutters distinctly from Wigglers. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 22:12, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
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