Editing Talk:Flame thrower (Flame Chomp)

==not the same==
Fire chomps are not fire spitters. Fire spitters shouldn't be mentioned as being in the Ds remake of Mario 64.{{User|Mechayoshi}}
==

This is 100% a [[Fire Chomp]]. I say we merge this with that article.

{{User:Mario64fanatic/sig}}

:Fire Chomps have faces, Fire Spitters don't; Fire Chomps move freely in the air, Fire Spitters don't; Fire Chomps can only use a limited amount of flames, Fire Spitters don't. They have not been confirmed as being the same species, so... rather not. - {{User:Edofenrir/sig}} 18:29, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

==English name?==
I typed in the Japanese characters used on the "Names in other Languages" section on a translator and it translated it to "black bean" should I add this in the article?
--[[User:Dry Bowser rules!|User:Dry Bowser rules!/sig]] 16:53, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
:Considering online translators aren't usually the most reliable sources of translation, no. [[User:GreenDisaster|GreenDisaster]] 16:59, 8 June 2012 (EDT)
::In this case, it's actually correct: it literally translates to "black bean" and is also the name of [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ファイル:Kuromame.JPG a type of black soybean dish]. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:32, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

==Move Super Mario 64 DS Flame Chomp info over to Kuromame or Merge==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|3-3-0}}
We currently list the ''Super Mario 64'' Kuromame as having been replaced by the ''Super Mario 64 DS'' Flame Chomp. This seems to be the idea spread around by [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D%E3%82%A2%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AA%E3%82%B7%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7#.E3.82.B9.E3.83.BC.E3.83.91.E3.83.BC.E3.83.9E.E3.83.AA.E3.82.AA64 some] [http://ja.mario.wikia.com/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%91%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AA64 wiki] [http://wikiwiki.jp/23237/?%A5%B9%A1%BC%A5%D1%A1%BC%A5%DE%A5%EA%A5%AA64 sources,] but it's hard to find anything solid. Kuromame don't even have a relation to Flame Chomps in other appearances, and there's nothing separating the two besides the newer face paint. On the other hand, we don't have a good source on the Kuromame name in the first place, so alternatively I'm leaving the option open to simply merging the two - although as mentioned, just as we don't have a more direct source calling these enemies Kuromame, we don't really have anything calling them Flame Chomps, either.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>May 1, 2015, 23:59 GMT</s> '''Extended''': <s>May 8, 2015, 23:59 GMT</s>, <s>May 15, 2015, 23:59 GMT</s>, May 22, 2015, 23:59 GMT

===Move section only===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}}
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per LinkTheLefty.
#{{User|TheHelper100}}

===Merge them entirely===
#{{User|Bwburke94}} Given that we don't have a solid source on the Kuromame name, merging it is the best option.
#{{User|Burningdragon25}} I will say this once: MERGE IT!
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} Per all.

===Keep as-is===

===Comments===
@burningdragon25: Please elaborate upon your vote. [[User:Andymii|Andymii]] ([[User talk:Andymii|talk]]) 19:26, 20 April 2015 (EDT)

I'm staying neutral for now, but I think that is it worth mentioning that even though the only difference is face paint, the Kuromame from SM64 DS ''obviously'' represents and is a Fire Chomp. If this <s>yet another</s> merge/move proposal is successful, then the name should be Fire Chomp (''Super Mario 64''), as we take newest names as an official policy. The only problem is that Kuromame looks ''nothing'' like a Chomp of any sort... [[User:Andymii|Andymii]] ([[User talk:Andymii|talk]]) 19:38, 20 April 2015 (EDT)

Would it be possible to list which levels these guys appear in? I have the SM64DS Pocket Guide, so it might help. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}

:Sure! I'm unaware if they were added in any exclusive missions, but they appear in the following courses in the N64 version: Vanish Cap Under the Moat, Hazy Maze Cave, Shifting Sand Land, Dire, Dire Docks, Bowser in the Fire Sea, Wet-Dry World, Tiny-Huge Island, Tick Tock Clock, Rainbow Ride, and Bowser in the Sky. Despite being fairly common, they don't seem to be mentioned in the ''Super Mario 64 Player's Guide''. (By the way, since this is somewhat related, there's also a citation needed for the "[[Pyro Box]]" from Bowser in the Dark World, Big Boo's Haunt, Hazy Maze Cave, Lethal Lava Land, Bowser in the Fire Sea, Rainbow Ride, and Bowser in the Sky.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:46, 12 May 2015 (EDT)

::The Nintendo Power Player's Guide refers to "Pyro Boxes" as "flame spouts" in its description for Bowser in the Dark World, on page 42: "The road to Bowser has been cunningly crafted to confuse and abuse intruders. Moving floors, flame spouts and teetering platforms defy Mario, but Bowser himself represents the ultimate challenge." It isn't a proper noun, but is this good enough to constitute an official name? I can't find a source on "Pyro Box." {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}}
:::So far, I haven't found anything for the Chomp/mame thing (which is especially annoying when there's one ''right in an image''), and the Pyro Box is never specifically referred to; it's always some variant on emerging fire ("jets of flame" in Hazy Maze Cave, "flaming blasts of lava" in Lethal Lava Land, etc.) Interestingly, almost all the names that actually ''are'' in this guide match the original 64 guide, such as Spindel, Grindel, Skeeter, Heave-Ho, and probably others (though not Snufit, because we need more hassle with that). If it's not in the original, it likely won't be here. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}

'''@Kart Player 2011''': I'm afraid there are no "half-votes" - only full votes and abstaining. Please either remove your vote, or commit fully to one of the options. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 17:15, 16 May 2015 (EDT)

== Move Super Mario 64 DS Flame Chomp info over to Kuromame? ==
Considering the above proposal tied over a [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Kuromame&diff=1840218&oldid=1840059 half-vote,] and no one wanted to leave it as-is, would it okay to go ahead and do that so the ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario 64 DS'' enemy lists match (especially since neither guide named the enemy)? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:33, 18 July 2015 (EDT)
:Not sure if this is the right path to take since we have enemies that have different, even drastic behavior within versions. The situation over Kuromane's naming is really hairy right now, so I can't support moving anything into Kuromane right now, especially since Fire Chomp is a much more concrete name. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:33, 18 July 2015 (EDT)
::Yeah, if you wanna make a change, make a new proposal: the fact that the old one was barely voted on and then tied just proves it's a complex situation that needs a better, clearer approach. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 12:58, 13 November 2015 (EST)

== Name ==
Likely from [http://honndana.sakura.ne.jp/mario/dr.cgi?key=522 the Daijiten]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 11:54, 4 January 2016 (EST)
:Found an improper name in the Nintendo Power guide, calling them "flame throwers" on page 115, talking about the "Get a Hand" Star. Should the page be moved to that? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:01, 19 January 2017 (EST)
::''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'' has another name: 「ケロンパボール」 ''Keronpa Bōru'', or '''Flame Chomp Ball'''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:44, 26 November 2017 (EST)
:::<s>And after I had just used Kuromame in a video of mine :P</s> If Keronpa Bōru is the most recent name, then by all means it can be moved. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:28, 26 November 2017 (EST)
::::The name change from Kuromame to Keronpa Ball seems clear-cut, but there's one more question: what about [[Flame Chomp#Super Mario 64 DS|''SM64DS'' Keronpa / Flame Chomp]]? The previous proposal above failed to reach consensus, but it looks like the intention behind the newer name seems obvious (otherwise they would have clearly left the original Kuromame as-is, especially since the book only covers the 64 game and there's no obligation to acknowledge the DS's odd Keronpa), plus the other [[Snufit|enemy]] [[Bub|design]] [[Bubba|differences]] between the 64 & DS versions are treated as aesthetic. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:51, 26 November 2017 (EST)

==Move ''Super Mario 64 DS'' Flame Chomp info and/or Kuromame over to Keronpa Ball==
{{TPP}}
The previous proposal above failed to reach consensus; however, new information has come to light that warrants revisiting this subject. In ''Super Mario Bros. Hyakka: Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook'', better known as ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'', another name for these objects has been found on page 92: 「ケロンパボール」 ''Keronpa Bōru'', or '''Flame Chomp Ball'''. Since the book covers ''Super Mario 64'' and not ''Super Mario 64 DS'', this seems to be a deliberate attempt at renaming and mixing both appearances of the original Kuromame and the odd Keronpa (or what would be translated as Flame Chomp). The first proposal option renames Kuromame to Keronpa Ball and adds Flame Chomp's ''Super Mario 64 DS'' section to this article, treating the design difference as aesthetic like we do for others such as Bub, Bubba and Snufit, and the second proposal option renames Kuromame to Keronpa Ball but keeps Keronpa separate. Either way, if and when the English version of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' comes out, it will be moved once again to the new localization.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 15, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Move ''SM64DS'' Flame Chomp section here and rename article to Keronpa Ball===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per proposal; the intention behind the newer name seems clear, otherwise the old name likely would have been left as-is.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} This thing isn't a bean, and the painfully different-from-normal '''Fire''' Chomp in ''DS'' was clearly intended to be derivative, not the same thing, much like [[Clubba]] for [[Spike]]. [[Fire Snake]] in ''[[Yoshi's Safari]]'' is a line of blue [[Lava Bubbles]] despite not being related to them in any other game, for example, and let's not start on [[Rocky Wrench]].
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.
#{{User|Astro-Lanceur}} per all

===Rename Kuromame to Keronpa Ball but do not move ''SM64DS'' Flame Chomp section===
#{{User|Alex95}} - Main problem I have with merging is that the object in ''SM64DS'' is very obviously a Flame Chomp. I'm all for the rename, but the merge doesn't work for me.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Wow, Alex95, you read my thoughts exactly.  Per Alex95.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per Alex.

===Do not rename Kuromame to Keronpa Ball and do not move ''SM64DS'' Flame Chomp separate===

===Comments===
@Alex95 - In every other appearance, Flame Chomps always have a chain of fireball projectiles and float around before combusting. In ''Super Mario 64 DS'', it's still a single immobile ball that generates fire as in the original game, only with a graphical update in the form of a face. If it weren't for noticing that a Japanese guide had the name Keronpa, we probably wouldn't think twice about it. Another thing is that ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' doesn't cover ''Super Mario 64 DS'' information in the ''Super Mario 64'' section (ie. [[Snufit#Names in other languages|Snufit]] is still called by its original name instead of the new one), so there's likely more to it than just a name change. Basically, Kuromame apparently had nothing to do with Flame Chomps in the 64 version, but the change to Keronpa Ball appears to be consciously due to the DS version. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:00, 1 December 2017 (EST)
:It's possible that the Keronpa Ball can be a derivative of a Flame Chomp rather than actually be a Flame Chomp. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:05, 1 December 2017 (EST)
::^Yeah, that. Also, I don't have the book you do, so is there any other information on the object? What else does the book say about it? Or should we just wait for the English release of the book, if that's confirmed to release? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:09, 1 December 2017 (EST)
@@ Line 16: / Line 16: @@
 ==Move Super Mario 64 DS Flame Chomp info over to Kuromame or Merge==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|no consensus|3-3-0}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|3-3-0}}
 We currently list the ''Super Mario 64'' Kuromame as having been replaced by the ''Super Mario 64 DS'' Flame Chomp. This seems to be the idea spread around by [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D%E3%82%A2%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AA%E3%82%B7%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AF%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7#.E3.82.B9.E3.83.BC.E3.83.91.E3.83.BC.E3.83.9E.E3.83.AA.E3.82.AA64 some] [http://ja.mario.wikia.com/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%91%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AA64 wiki] [http://wikiwiki.jp/23237/?%A5%B9%A1%BC%A5%D1%A1%BC%A5%DE%A5%EA%A5%AA64 sources,] but it's hard to find anything solid. Kuromame don't even have a relation to Flame Chomps in other appearances, and there's nothing separating the two besides the newer face paint. On the other hand, we don't have a good source on the Kuromame name in the first place, so alternatively I'm leaving the option open to simply merging the two - although as mentioned, just as we don't have a more direct source calling these enemies Kuromame, we don't really have anything calling them Flame Chomps, either.
@@ Line 62: / Line 62: @@
 ==Move ''Super Mario 64 DS'' Flame Chomp info and/or Kuromame over to Keronpa Ball==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|passed|7-2-0|move ''Super Mario 64 DS'' Flame Chomp info and rename Keronpa Ball}}
 The previous proposal above failed to reach consensus; however, new information has come to light that warrants revisiting this subject. In ''Super Mario Bros. Hyakka: Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook'', better known as ''[[Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.]]'', another name for these objects has been found on page 92: 「ケロンパボール」 ''Keronpa Bōru'', or '''Flame Chomp Ball'''. Since the book covers ''Super Mario 64'' and not ''Super Mario 64 DS'', this seems to be a deliberate attempt at renaming and mixing both appearances of the original Kuromame and the odd Keronpa (or what would be translated as Flame Chomp). The first proposal option renames Kuromame to Keronpa Ball and adds Flame Chomp's ''Super Mario 64 DS'' section to this article, treating the design difference as aesthetic like we do for others such as Bub, Bubba and Snufit, and the second proposal option renames Kuromame to Keronpa Ball but keeps Keronpa separate. Either way, if and when the English version of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' comes out, it will be moved once again to the new localization.
@@ Line 74: / Line 73: @@
 #{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.
 #{{User|Astro-Lanceur}} per all
-#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
-#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
-#{{User|YoshiStar28}} Per proposal. It can be moved.
 ===Rename Kuromame to Keronpa Ball but do not move ''SM64DS'' Flame Chomp section===
@@ Line 83: / Line 79: @@
 #{{User|Time Turner}} Per Alex.
-===Do not rename Kuromame to Keronpa Ball and do not move ''SM64DS'' Flame Chomp section===
+===Do not rename Kuromame to Keronpa Ball and do not move ''SM64DS'' Flame Chomp separate===
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 89: / Line 85: @@
 :It's possible that the Keronpa Ball can be a derivative of a Flame Chomp rather than actually be a Flame Chomp. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:05, 1 December 2017 (EST)
 ::^Yeah, that. Also, I don't have the book you do, so is there any other information on the object? What else does the book say about it? Or should we just wait for the English release of the book, if that's confirmed to release? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:09, 1 December 2017 (EST)
-:::Keronpa Ball's description in ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' is as follows:
-::::'''ケロンパボール'''
-::::近くにいると、一定の
-::::<span class="explain" title="かんかく">間隔</span>で炎を出してくる
-::::黒い球。
-:::Meaning: "''When near, this black ball gives off a flame at regular intervals.''" It's rather basic information, but we don't have much to go off of besides the three names from different sources and a design change in the remake that connects it to Flame Chomp. The book's English release status is rather [[Talk:Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.|uncertain]] - it's been delayed indefinitely, but not outright canceled. But just to reiterate so it's clearer, the first option would treat the resulting Keronpa Ball article as an amalgamation of ''SM64'' Kuromame and ''SM64DS'' Keronpa, which would also make the Flame Chomp article more congruent in my opinion; with either option, Keronpa Ball will naturally be considered a derived species of Flame Chomp (albeit somewhat retroactively). The main issue is if the new name is sufficient enough to merge ''SM64DS'' Keronpa. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:40, 4 December 2017 (EST)
-::::Hm... Really the only thing they share as of the DS version is the face, everything else about them is different (Flame Chomps move, Keronpa Balls don't; Flame Chomps explode, Keronpa Balls don't) aside from spitting fire. I guess it would work better as a derivative rather than actually being a Flame Chomp, but I'm still not sure. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:47, 4 December 2017 (EST)
-:::::"Very obviously a Flame Chomp?" I'd say it's very obviously ''not'' a Flame Chomp by all accounts, the reasons of which you just said here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:28, 7 December 2017 (EST)