Editing Talk:Expresso

Expresso II's [[Scrapbook]] picture in [[Donkey Kong Country 2]] states his name as Expresso. Should this be merged to Expresso then? {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 12:26, 25 June 2011 (EDT)

:Create a proposal. {{User:Supremo78/sig}}


==Merge to Expresso==
{{settledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|red|keep split 2-12}}
Like what I said above, Expresso II's scrapbook picture states his name as Expresso, not Expresso II. Expresso II was obviously made up, I think it should be merged. If the scrapbook states it, that means the game states it, and that also means their names are identical. Obviously Expresso II was mistaken for Expresso.

'''Proposer''': {{User|DKPetey99}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 9, 2011, 23:59 GMT

===Merge to [[Expresso]]===
<s>{{User|DKPetey99}} Like what I said, if the game states it, it has to be true.</s>
<s>{{User|Supremo78}} Per proposal.</s>
<s>{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} The name is official if it is listed ingame. The only reason we named it Expresso II is because there was no other source other than the scrapbook claiming that these two birds are the same. Since the scrapbook from the game indeed lists this bird's name as "Expresso", then that is what its name should be. Therefore, this deserves a merge.</s>
#{{User|Zero777}} I don't think Nintendo will make the naming as complex as M4E said, per all.
#{{User|Superfiremario}} Per BabyLuigiOnFire.

===Keep Expresso II with Expresso===
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} People who are named after others in their family aren't addressed by the number. It's more reasonable to assume that Cranky found a replacement for Expresso and named it Expresso in memory of the bird (especially if one considers the time between the SNES version of the game and the remake. This could be a means of demonstrating in-game that time has passed, as was done with ''[[Super Mario 64 DS]]''), adding the II so as not to confuse the Kongs, than it is to assume that it is the same bird. The number would only be important if they were placed side-by-side, as it would serve as a means to distinguish them.
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per Mario4Ever.
#{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} you have no evidence to suggest that they are the same thing considering how Expresso II is smaller than Expresso
#{{User|Nicke8}} Per Mario4ever.
#{{User|Mario Bros.!}} Per Mario4Ever.
#{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per M4E!
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} As shown in my comments, they are two different birds with the same name. I actually think this article should be renamed to "Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)", since that is his official name.
#{{User|Xzelion}} &ndash; Per Fawfulfury65.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Fawfulfury65.
#{{User|DKPetey99}} Even though this is my proposal, I have no more argument. Per FF65. I want to move it to Expresso the Ostrich (Donkey Kong Country 2).
#{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} Per all, except for Mario4Ever. Sorry, but your reasoning is pretty...weird. And I agree renaming to Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)
#{{User|Supremo78}} Per Fawfulfury65.

===Comments===
@Mario4Ever, you are speculating, you don't have an official source. I just looked at the scrapbook picture of [[Expresso]]. Where's your source? {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 12:41, 25 June 2011 (EDT)
You're still speculating. You're saying "assume" many times. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 12:45, 25 June 2011 (EDT)
:Stating that the name Expresso II was made up just because the II was dropped from the Scrapbook is an assumption in itself. How do you know it wasn't an oversight? {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
::The name Expresso II is conjectural itself because no official source lists this name. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

@Goomba's Shoe15: Page 13 of the Scrapbook. Look at the so-called Expresso II's name: Expresso. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 13:23, 25 June 2011 (EDT)
:The scrapbook does say its name is Expresso. I remember a year ago I was planning on making a proposal about this myself but I thought it out and changed by mind. I can't remember my reasoning on why, though. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}

I would also like to note that when "Expresso II" races, the minigame is called [[Expresso Racing|'''Expresso''' Racing]]. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 14:02, 28 June 2011 (EDT)
:So? It's a catchier name than "Expresso II Racing." There is nothing to support the claim that the name of the mini-game is the intended name of the bird. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
::And there nothing to support that it is called "Expresso II Racing" either. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

Look at [[Expresso]]'s trophy from Brawl, it says he appears in ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest]]''. They are the same and Mario4Ever, you are speculating ''' a lot'''. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 07:02, 1 July 2011 (EDT)

The Expresso in this game and the one in the first DKC are in fact different characters. After playing the game for a couple of minutes, I found out that, according to Cranky, Expresso II is a bird that he got with his wealth from DKC. Before you begin to race, Cranky names the bird "Expresso". They are two different ostriches with the same name. {{User:Fawfulfury65/sig}}

I have no argument now, so I remove my vote. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 09:21, 4 July 2011 (EDT)
:I actually agree with FF65: Move it to "Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)". {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 11:56, 6 July 2011 (EDT)

==Move to {{fakelink|Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)}}==
{{settledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|green|move name 11-0}}
During the events of the proposal above, it was revealed that [[Expresso the Ostrich]] is different than [[Expresso II]]. Now, since their names are the same, I say we move this name to "Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)". And this is not my idea, Fawfulfury65 first stated we should do this.

'''Proposer''': {{User|DKPetey99}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 25, 2011, 23:59 GMT

===Move the Name===
#{{User|DKPetey99}} Per my proposal.
#{{User|Reddragon19k}} Sounds like a per DKP is an order! Move it!
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} Expresso II's official name, found in the game, is simply Expresso, and he is a different bird than the Expresso from DKC.
#{{User|Cleanup Guy}} Fictional name. Move.
#{{User|Supremo78}} Like FF65 said in the above proposal, it would just be easier to move it.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
#{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} Per all
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per FF65.
#{{User|Mariomario64}} &ndash; Per those who per FF65.
#{{User|Mario Bros.!}} &ndash; Per Fawful Fury 65
#{{User|Bowser's luma}} Per all.

===Keep the Name===
===Comments===
The comments in the first proposal seemed to indicate he was only called "Expresso", not "Expresso the Ostrich", so shouldn't the new name just be "Expresso (Donkey Kong Count 2)"? - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 11:51, 11 July 2011 (EDT)
:Yes, but he is an animal buddy. Each animal buddy (except for Nibbla) has their species after their name. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 11:54, 11 July 2011 (EDT)
::He's not a normal animal buddy: he's not used in the levels, but in a single minigame. But either way, it doesn't matter what everything else is called; what matters is what ''this'' character was called, and by the sounds of it, he was called "Expresso". Calling him anything else is an assumption on our part. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 16:02, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

== What the? ==

Tell me, on what planet is this character any different from Expresso from DKC? Someone explain it to me with some evidence because right now this entire page seems like nonsense to me. At what point did we determine that this Expresso is SOMEHOW an entirely different bird, and exactly where does this logic end? Is Squawks in DKC2 a different bird from DKC because he's bigger? [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 18:58, 22 March 2014 (EDT)
:I can't really think of any differentiating factor that doesn't also apply to literally every other ridable creatures in the extended mario universe. This doesn't make much sense. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 19:30, 22 March 2014 (EDT)
::I looked into it a bit more and it just seems to be one of those instances of multiple animal buddies. Yes, this Expresso is treated different (although it seems more an instance of ignoring the first game for the sake of new players), but it's still Expresso. There's no "the" Expresso anyway, it's perfectly possible to get multiple animal buddies in certain games, including the original (pretty sure you can get two Enguardes on screen in Aquatic Ambiance, for example). Anyway, I see no reason for this "character" to have a separate page when for all intents and purposes it's the same character just in a different setting. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 10:47, 28 March 2014 (EDT)

==Merge with Expresso the Ostrich==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|green|merge 7-2}}
There are numerous reasons for this merge.
#It's an ostrich named Expresso that looks identical to Expresso the Ostrich. IDENTICAL. It's Expresso the Ostrich.
#While Expresso is treated like a new bird in DKC2 GBA, this seems more aimed at new players and just seems to be bending the "canon" (such as it is) for the sake of a minigame.
#The DKC is very loose with the idea of "single" characters. Klump is treated as a single character but you meet two of them in the first level, for example. Just because Expresso is treated as a single entity in the DKC manual doesn't mean there aren't multiple Expressos. It's perfectly possible to have multiple animal buddies on screen in DKC, and the cancelled Donkey Kong Racing included multiple Expressos. Multiple Squawks have appeared before in a few games, also.
#The minigame is called "Expresso Racing", with the implication being that they're all Expressos.
#The "character" is far too minimal to have it's own little page like this, considering it appeared in a mini game in a GBA port. A simple mention on the Expresso the Ostrich page that this Expresso is treated as a unique bird is enough. That's all that's required. Segmenting this information into it's own page seems silly.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Fizzle}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 12, 2014 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Fizzle}} Per my proposal.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} They're both ostritches named "Expresso". They look the same. Animal buddies have appeared as generics before (2 Enguardes in the first underwater level of DKC and [[Quawks]] in DKC). There's nothing that applies to this "character" that can't also be applied to other ridable mounts in the extended franchise.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} per all
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} There is pretty much NOTHING that makes them different in any way. Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} Per the carbonation guy.
#{{user|Green 6017 King Of The Slowpoke}} Per all.
#{{User|YoshiCookie}} I've been wanting to move this for ages. Per Fizzle.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} According to DKC 2 GBA the Expresso in that game was bought by Cranky using the money he got from the first game and he only named it Expresso right before the race therefore they are different characters and should by split.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per Marshal Dan Troop and Fawfulfury65's reasoning from the previous proposal.

===Comments===
Cranky naming the bird Expresso seems more like an in-joke more than anything else, given that it's previously established that he knows the names of Expresso and Winky. That or it's just a massive inconsistency. It seems to be there just so the player knows which bird is his when the race starts. It doesn't make much sense either way and doesn't seem like grounds to keep this character separate. For all intents and purposes, the bird is identical. I'm fairly sure there are numerous instances in the Mario series of a previously established character being effectively "re-introduced". Do we need a separate page for the small Winky he keeps, also? [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] ([[User talk:Fizzle|talk]]) 21:45, 29 March 2014 (EDT)

==Split Expresso from Expresso (''Donkey Kong Country 2'')==
{{TPP}}
I feel that there has to be some major clarification here. During the events of the [[Game Boy Advance|GBA]] version of [[Donkey Kong Country 2]], [[Cranky Kong]] explicitly states that Cranky bought a new ostrich. Yes, this new ostrich shares a name with the one from ''Donkey Kong Country'' and yes, they look the same. However, simply put, they are two different characters. Why are two different characters merged into one article? I am confident that this will be the final debate regarding this issue, and I hope we make the right decision here and, above all, obtain some clarification on this matter. For further comments on this, refer to FawfulFury65 and my comments above.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|DKPetey99}} <br>
'''Deadline:''' December 17, 2016 23:59 GMT

===Support===
*{{User|DKPetey99}} Again, why have two different characters merged into one article based upon the sole fact that they have the same name and feather colors?

===Oppose===
===Comments===
@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 ==Merge to Expresso==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{settledTPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|red|keep split 2-12}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|red|keep split 2-12}}
 Like what I said above, Expresso II's scrapbook picture states his name as Expresso, not Expresso II. Expresso II was obviously made up, I think it should be merged. If the scrapbook states it, that means the game states it, and that also means their names are identical. Obviously Expresso II was mistaken for Expresso.
@@ Line 53: / Line 53: @@
 :I actually agree with FF65: Move it to "Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)". {{User:DKPetey99/sig}} 11:56, 6 July 2011 (EDT)
-==Move to {{fake link|Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)}}==
+==Move to {{fakelink|Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)}}==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{settledTPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|green|move name 11-0}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|green|move name 11-0}}
 During the events of the proposal above, it was revealed that [[Expresso the Ostrich]] is different than [[Expresso II]]. Now, since their names are the same, I say we move this name to "Expresso (Donkey Kong Country 2)". And this is not my idea, Fawfulfury65 first stated we should do this.
@@ Line 87: / Line 87: @@
 ==Merge with Expresso the Ostrich==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|green|merge 7-2}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|green|merge 7-2}}
 There are numerous reasons for this merge.
 #It's an ostrich named Expresso that looks identical to Expresso the Ostrich. IDENTICAL. It's Expresso the Ostrich.
@@ Line 116: / Line 116: @@
 ==Split Expresso from Expresso (''Donkey Kong Country 2'')==
-{{settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{proposal outcome|failed|2-7}}
 I feel that there has to be some major clarification here. During the events of the [[Game Boy Advance|GBA]] version of [[Donkey Kong Country 2]], [[Cranky Kong]] explicitly states that Cranky bought a new ostrich. Yes, this new ostrich shares a name with the one from ''Donkey Kong Country'' and yes, they look the same. However, simply put, they are two different characters. Why are two different characters merged into one article? I am confident that this will be the final debate regarding this issue, and I hope we make the right decision here and, above all, obtain some clarification on this matter. For further comments on this, refer to FawfulFury65 and my comments above.
@@ Line 124: / Line 123: @@
 ===Support===
-#{{User|DKPetey99}} Again, why have two different characters merged into one article based upon the sole fact that they have the same name and feather colors?
+*{{User|DKPetey99}} Again, why have two different characters merged into one article based upon the sole fact that they have the same name and feather colors?
-#{{User|Yoshi the Space Station Manager}} looking at the results, Expresso from the DKC2GBA port was more thought of as separate when the name was Expresso II. But, ever since it was changed to Expresso, the results change to having them merge. What changed? The name is the same, but they are obviously the two are different. I support splitting them apart again.
 ===Oppose===
-#{{User|Glowsquid}} - I think Fizzle's reasoning in the original proposal still stands.
-#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per previous proposal for a merge and Glowsquid.
-#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} Some splits cause confusion. Also the Super Smash Bros. Brawl trophy information considers it the same entity. Per all.
-#{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} Why split a character's appearance in another game when they are still the same character? A mention in the original article for his DKC appearance is, in my opinion, the best decision. Per all.
-#{{user|Shokora}} &ndash; Per the previous proposal.
-#{{User|Magikrazy}} Per all.
-#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Per all, especially on points 3 and 4 of the Fizzle proposal, which haven't been addressed here.
 ===Comments===
-@Opposers: Fizzle's reasoning above is that since they have the same names, they are the same characters. The game explicitly says that Cranky bought the new Expresso after DKC1. His fourth reasoning above says that all the ostriches are Expresso, when in fact they have plenty of different names that randomize each race. It has been established that they are different characters. Let's not keep two separate characters merged into one article. {{User|DKPetey99}}
-:If you look at [[Expresso]]’s trophy in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, the two named games where he appears are '''SNES Donkey Kong Country''' and '''GBA Donkey Kong Country 2'''. This probably means that both Expresso are not different. --{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  19:47, 4 December 2016 (EST)
-:: Yes but if the Brawl trophies are not always 100% true. They claim Kaptain K. Rool is King K. Rool's brother so if we are to solely base our reasoning off of  the trophy description, then we must stay consistent and split Kaptain K. Rool from King K. Rool. {{user:DKPetey99/sig}}
-Is there anything significant enough for the second Expresso to have his own article? Does he have a role or is he just "there"? If he's just simply Cranky's pet, then he'd best to be a mention on the main Expresso page. I haven't played the game, so... {{User:Alex95/sig}} 23:03, 6 December 2016 (EST)
-:He has his own game mode called "Expresso Racing." {{User:DKPetey99/sig}}
-@Wildgoosespeeder, can you give an example of a split causing confusion because I don't think you're giving a good reason. Seems vague and subjective. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}}
-:Also look [[Talk:King K. Rool#Long-Lost Brother|here]] for other examples about the Super Smash Bros. trophies having errors. {{User:DKPetey99/sig}}
-Both Expressos serve pretty much the same function. It's an ostrich, and it runs fast. And sometimes you can ride it. That's about all there is to Expresso, and the minigame doesn't make one game's Expresso different from the other. The minigame is very briefly discussed in this article to begin with. I get that I said they've got different names at some point, but even then, that's not always a surefire reason to split an article. The information is much more complete and conveniently supplied in one article. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}