Editing Talk:Dragoneel (purple)

==Separate enemy?==

So do we have any official proof that this "Baby Dragoneel" is a Dragoneel subenemy? What does the Prima Guide say? Or how about the Japanese guide which was used as proof to make the [[Gūrindai]] article? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 11:51, 21 July 2015 (EDT)
:They're smaller than regular Dragoneels, so even if we don't find a name, they're clearly a separate entity, as demonstrated by all the other enemies that have articles based on being larger or smaller than their counterparts. In any case, this is the only mention of the little Dragoneels in the Prima guide (remember that there are only two of them, and they appear together): "Duck into a red Warp Pipe G to visit this Coin-fi lled cavern, where the final Star Coin is kept. Beware the twin Dragoneels that guard this place—they’re slower than the one that chases you through the main stage, but there are two of them! Lure the Dragoneel twins to one side of the cavern, then quickly swim to the other side and make your escape." You could almost make the argument that it treats them like characters and not a species... {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::It's "clearly" a separate entity because there are other sized enemies that have their own articles? Most of those at least are justified by being officially acknowledged as such. "Baby Dragoneels" don't have that, and aren't even really treated as separate enemies in Prima guide, if they're not mentioned in the enemy section (assuming that guide has one). They may be unique one-timers, but if that's all they have, then I don't see much of a reason for the separate article. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 07:36, 22 July 2015 (EDT)
:::Prima is known to have a have oversights when it comes to enemy types, though. I think we can at least use that quote to change it to "Twin Dragoneel" with a "Dragoneel Twin" redirect. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:57, 22 July 2015 (EDT)
::::How much of an oversight this is on Prima's part would still depend on other official guides and sources, though. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 06:11, 26 July 2015 (EDT)

==Move Baby Dragoneel to Twin Dragoneel==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|red|failed 2-5}}
To now, the enemy is called Baby Dragoneel, a conjectural name, but according to New Super Mario Bros. U’s prima guide, they are called Twin Dragoneel which would make sense, since they attack together and there are only two of them appearing in the full game. Moreover, they do not appear in New Super Luigi U (the page say so, I do not think I have seen in this game). I believe in this case that these are good reasons to change the name for a more official one.


'''Proposer''': {{User|LudwigVon}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 1, 2016, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per proposal and above.
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} Per all.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Time Turner}} They're not called "Twin Dragoneels", they're called "twin Dragoneels". This is an important distinction, since the former indicates that it's a name, while the latter indicates that the word "twin" is merely being used to describe the Dragoneels that appear in the level. I'm generally not a fan of cobbling random bits of text into a name, especially when it's only been used once in the entire body and it's right next another descriptive title: "Dragoneel twins". Neither name is ideal, and I still prefer the current name as it appropriately describes the subject. If it was absolutely the name, I'd go along with it, but the circumstances are far too vague and the name is used too infrequentely for my tastes.
#{{User|Chocolate Mario}} Per Time Turner.
#{{User|Andymii}} Per Time Turner.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Per Time Turner. Although I'm not a fan of the "baby" adjective and would prefer "Small Dragoneel", "Short Dragoneel", or "Purple Dragoneel"/"Dragoneel (purple)".
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per Time Turner.

====Comments====
Time Turner, I put uppercase T, because it would be the title name of the page and the first letter of the article (like "Twin Dragoneel is a enemy that appear...), but yes it's a lowercase T in the prima guide.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 20:04, 17 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not saying that you're incorrect in capitalizing it, but it's misleading as the original quote doesn't capitalize it. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
Bazooka Mario, I will agree with the name "Small Dragoneel", because I think it describes better the enemy, unlike Purple Dragoneel, because it is as if the only difference between the two Dragoneel would be the color, or it is smaller than actual Dragoneel, then I agree if it changes its name to small Dragoneel. Short is not really good in my opinion, since we have some enemies like [[Small Spider]], [[Small Urchin]], [[Small Fry Guy]], It will keep consistency if we name it Small Dragoneel.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 23:52, 27 January 2016 (EST)
:And like you say there is no indicator that they are actually offspring of Dragoneel.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 23:54, 27 January 2016 (EST)
::All right. That's another time, though, but I can go with any of those three names. I think "short" might work because the purple ones apparently are the same size as the regular Dragoneels, but just shorter. Purple also works too, though, and we have different colored Electro-Koopas as separate articles, so renaming the "Baby" Dragoneels by color works as well. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:13, 28 January 2016 (EST)
:::Considering the existence of [[Lava Bubble (blue)]], I wouldn't mind moving this article to "Dragoneel (purple)" or something along those lines. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::::Considering the fact that the NSMBU Prima Guide call them "twin" Dragoneel instead of "Twin Dragoneel" shows that this type of Dragoneel may not a different name than the normal bigger Dragoneel like how there is no different name between the two colors Lava Bubble. Maybe it's too much interpretation. I would say yes, a move to "Dragoneel (purple)" may be the best we can do.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 00:08, 31 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, and it will remove the conjecture too, so that's another plus. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:32, 31 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'd also support the "Dragoneel (purple)" name. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 17:02, 31 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Since we agree to move this to "Dragoneel (purple)", once the proposal end, I will move the page. Okay?--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  13:57, 1 February 2016 (EST)

== Identifier ==
{{talk}}
Shouldn't we change it to something like "Dragoneel (short), or Dragoneel (small)? Current identifier make it seem it is simply a color variation, while they are also short. It could differenciate between simply a color variation and a size variant. That says, i'm still waiting for the internal filenames for both this and the normal Dragoneel. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:02, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
:I'd personally prefer "small" or "twin," since those are A: what affect gameplay and B: what people are actually going to remember after having played through the whole game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:09, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
::Like i said, it would help differenciate between just being a color variation, and being a size variation as well. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:13, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
:::I'm for the "small" identifier as well. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 09:28, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
::::Maybe a "twin" identifier, given how the Prima describes them? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:30, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
:::::Well, since both small Dragoneels act independently of each other, I don't think "twin" would be an accurate identifier. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 09:35, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Given, that it is in length rather than in size, (has a shorter tail), "short" could work. However, if many people would prefer someting else, we could make a proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:46, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::(Small) is my preferred option, as short is a bit too descriptive for an identifier. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 10:10, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::They aren't even mentionned in the english version of the encyclopedia (well, you'd tell me that the Cheep Cheep, which i am referring to the cuckoo bird obstacle, isn't mentionned either) That says, i do want to know if the Japanese version also does this mistake. I asked to LinkTheLefty about both this Dragoneel and the normal Dragoneel's internal filenames. I wonder if he already determined what they are to determine which identifier to use... --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:37, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 ==Move Baby Dragoneel to Twin Dragoneel==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|red|failed 2-5}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|red|failed 2-5}}
 To now, the enemy is called Baby Dragoneel, a conjectural name, but according to New Super Mario Bros. U’s prima guide, they are called Twin Dragoneel which would make sense, since they attack together and there are only two of them appearing in the full game. Moreover, they do not appear in New Super Luigi U (the page say so, I do not think I have seen in this game). I believe in this case that these are good reasons to change the name for a more official one.
@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 == Identifier ==
+{{talk}}
 Shouldn't we change it to something like "Dragoneel (short), or Dragoneel (small)? Current identifier make it seem it is simply a color variation, while they are also short. It could differenciate between simply a color variation and a size variant. That says, i'm still waiting for the internal filenames for both this and the normal Dragoneel. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:02, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 :I'd personally prefer "small" or "twin," since those are A: what affect gameplay and B: what people are actually going to remember after having played through the whole game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:09, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
@@ Line 49: / Line 50: @@
 :::::::(Small) is my preferred option, as short is a bit too descriptive for an identifier. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 10:10, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 ::::::::They aren't even mentionned in the english version of the encyclopedia (well, you'd tell me that the Cheep Cheep, which i am referring to the cuckoo bird obstacle, isn't mentionned either) That says, i do want to know if the Japanese version also does this mistake. I asked to LinkTheLefty about both this Dragoneel and the normal Dragoneel's internal filenames. I wonder if he already determined what they are to determine which identifier to use... --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:37, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
-:::::::::They're both in the archive "<tt>content/Common/actor/unabon</tt>". The red one uses the model "<tt>unabon</tt>" and the purple one uses the model "<tt>unabon_S</tt>". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:33, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
-::::::::::So yeah, that could be "small," "short," or any number of other things. Given typical theme naming though, it's probably "small." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:26, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
-:::::::::::Then they're definitely based off of [[Snorkel Snake]]. The "S" might have suggested small. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:45, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
-::::::::::::Potentially just behaviorally-based without ever being intended as the same thing, or potentially an intended reappearance that was stylized beyond recognition in the final. Who knows. I've made note of it on the main Dragoneel page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:37, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
-Old, but what does it say in the Prima guide? {{User:DarkNight/sig}} 20:46, September 3, 2020 (EDT)
-== Merge to [[Dragoneel]] ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|6-0|merge}}
-Previously, discussion on merging these subjects was shot down due too "splitting other size variations." I want to contest that; it's not a size variation, it's a color and ''length'' variation. We don't split Wigglers and Pokeys based on segment number ([[Pokey Head]] notwithstanding as that's actually considered a different enemy), red Dragoneels appear at differing lengths in the ''Mario Party'' games, and no official source in any language from what I can tell bothers to list these differently. They're ''already'' covered succinctly on the main Dragoneel page, with the amount of information still needing to be merged being very small.<br>
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': February 26, 2022, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - per above
-#{{User|WildWario}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, this seems more comparable to [[Koopa Troopa]]s.
-#{{User|OhoJeeOnFire}} Yep. Think about it like the four colors of [[Koopa Troopa]]s and the red and blue [[Spike Top]]s.
-#{{User|winstein}} Sounds reasonable to merge the two subjects into one page.
-===Oppose===
-===Comments===