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| == Fix the Chaos == | | == Fix the Chaos == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-2-20|Do not move information}}
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| The current [[Donkey Kong]] that originated from ''[[DKC]]'' is not the original [[Cranky Kong|Donkey Kong]] that originated from ''[[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]]''. Yet the wiki currently considers DK and CK to have a first appearance in the '81 DK as the "original DK" and the article for the "current DK" goes over their "appearances" in the older DK media as the "original DK". Either DK or CK is the "original DK", not both. As a wiki, we must move the appearances of the "original DK" in the older DK media (the parts of the current DK's article going over the history of the "original DK") over to [[Cranky Kong]]'s article and remove the "appearance" of ''[[Donkey Kong]]'' (as the original Donkey Kong) (1981) from the [[Donkey Kong|"current DK"]]'s article. While both characters are DK, only Cranky Kong is the "original DK" and the [[Donkey Kong|"current DK"]] is not. That's why we call them the "current DK". | | The current [[Donkey Kong]] that originated from ''[[DKC]]'' is not the original [[Cranky Kong|Donkey Kong]] that originated from ''[[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]]''. Yet the wiki currently considers DK and CK to have a first appearance in the '81 DK as the "original DK" and the article for the "current DK" goes over their "appearances" in the older DK media as the "original DK". Either DK or CK is the "original DK", not both. As a wiki, we must move the appearances of the "original DK" in the older DK media (the parts of the current DK's article going over the history of the "original DK") over to [[Cranky Kong]]'s article and remove the "appearance" of ''[[Donkey Kong]]'' (as the original Donkey Kong) (1981) from the [[Donkey Kong|"current DK"]]'s article. While both characters are DK, only Cranky Kong is the "original DK" and the [[Donkey Kong|"current DK"]] is not. That's why we call them the "current DK". |
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Pizza Master}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Pizza Master}}<br> |
| '''Deadline''': <s>February 14, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s>Closed early on February 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline''': February 14, 2025, 23:59 GMT |
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| === Move "Original DK info" in [[Donkey Kong|this article]]'s history to Cranky Kong's article and remove the ''[[Donkey Kong]]'' (as the original Donkey Kong) (1981) from the [[Donkey Kong|"current DK"]]'s article === | | === Move "Original DK info" in [[Donkey Kong|this article]]'s history to Cranky Kong's article and remove the ''[[Donkey Kong]]'' (as the original Donkey Kong) (1981) from the [[Donkey Kong|"current DK"]]'s article === |
| #{{User|Pizza Master}} Per. | | #{{User|Pizza Master}} Per. |
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| === Move Pre-DKC info to {{fake link|Donkey Kong (Pre-DKC)}} ===
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| #{{User|Pizza Master}} Secondary.
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| #{{User|Salmancer}} At the very least, this option doesn't make ''Super Mario Odyssey'' give me a splitting headache.
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| ===Oppose=== | | ===Oppose=== |
| #{{User|Nintendo101}} The ''individual'' that is Cranky Kong is supposedly the original DK from the arcade game, in terms of lore and continuity. However, he is not the same ''character'' from that game. The Donkey Kong you play as in ''Donkey Kong Country'' is the same character from the arcade game, and this is reflected in how Nintendo utilizes and brands the latter character throughout history, from ''[[Gallery:Mario Tennis (Nintendo 64)|Mario Tennis]]'' (which includes the ''Donkey Kong Country'' iteration of DK alongside... Donkey Kong Jr., which makes no sense if the continuity established by Rare was always true) to the [[:File:DonkeyKongMovieStadium2.png|recent movie]]. Perhaps a decent parallel is that the {{iw|zeldawiki|Hero's Spirit}} from ''Twilight Princess'' is the same individual {{iw|zeldawiki|Link}} from ''Ocarina of Time'', but he is not the same character from that game, and Zelda Wiki covers that material accurately. If that is not sufficient, I find [https://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/9/25/3407672/miyamoto-the-mario-cast-is-a-troupe-of-actors-and-bowsers-kids-are this article quoting Shigeru Miyamoto] to be contextualizing with regard to how they use and conceptualize their characters, in which he states, "If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon... They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games." | | #{{User|Nintendo101}} The ''individual'' that is Cranky Kong is supposedly the original DK from the arcade game, in terms of lore and continuity. However, he is not the same ''character'' from that game. The Donkey Kong you play as in ''Donkey Kong Country'' is the same character from the arcade game, and this is reflected in how Nintendo utilizes and brands the latter character throughout history, from ''[[Gallery:Mario Tennis (Nintendo 64)|Mario Tennis]]'' (which includes the ''Donkey Kong Country'' iteration of DK alongside... Donkey Kong Jr., which makes no sense if the continuity established by Rare was always true) to the [[:File:DonkeyKongMovieStadium2.png|recent movie]]. Perhaps a decent parallel is that the {{iw|zeldawiki|Hero's Spirit}} from ''Twilight Princess'' is the same individual {{iw|zeldawiki|Link}} from ''Ocarina of Time'', but he is not the same character from that game, and Zelda Wiki covers that material accurately. If that is not sufficient, I find [https://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/9/25/3407672/miyamoto-the-mario-cast-is-a-troupe-of-actors-and-bowsers-kids-are this article quoting Shigeru Miyamoto] to be contextualizing with regard to how they use and conceptualize their characters, in which he states, "If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon... They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games." |
| #{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Cranky being from the arcade games only occurred during Rare's tenure with Nintendo. Donkey Kong and Cranky Kong are properties of Nintendo. | | #{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Cranky being from the arcade games only occurred during Rare's tenure with Nintendo. Donkey Kong and Cranky Kong are properties of Nintendo. |
| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Nintendo101. Trying to adhere strictly to the "Donkey Kong in the pre-''Country'' games is Cranky Kong" narrative just doesn't work in the long run, because unlike, say, [[Wrinkly Kong]], Nintendo is a ''lot'' more willing to play fast-and-loose with Cranky's continuity and if he's either the Donkey Kong we see in the original arcade game, or just an elderly member of the Kong family; heck, in the movie, Cranky isn't even Donkey's grandfather--he's just his ''father'' father. If that doesn't say "Cranky Kong and Donkey Kong's familial relationship can vary based on story", nothin' will. Rather than try to assert one of these is "the true answer" when there almost certainly isn't one, we feel like [[Cranky Kong#Identity confusion|the pre-existing section]] on Cranky's article already does a suitable enough job of clearing up the situation while not making any strong leaps to assert one narrative over the other.
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| #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Completely removing everything about the arcade games from this article is a seriously bad idea.
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Not entirely per anyone here. I just feel like the information about the Donkey Kong character should be accessed at the Donkey Kong page, and the pages already make the distinction between DKs as clear as they can be.
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| #{{User|Ray Trace}} some writer at rare decided "hey let's make the character do a fun reference to that arcade game in the form of this old guy quoting it" and then proceeded to break the mario fandom's spine over it
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| #{{User|PopitTart}} Donkey Kong is Donkey Kong.
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| #{{User|Salmancer}} This is one of those things where a wiki about fictional characters has to decide where on the spectrum it lands between "treat things as the events of the fiction are real" and "treat things as them being fictional works". I think Super Mario Wiki leans closer to the latter. (Why hello, [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]] for saying there is no canon and [[MarioWiki:Naming]] for sticking to names as presented per game rather than updating to the most current name.) Given this it makes sense to say: "Cranky Kong is a character using early appearances of the Donkey Kong character as fun way to build a backstory for a rambling old man character and present the reimagined Donkey Kong character as being hip and fresh despite how the character was created before some in the target audience were born".
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Nope, don't change this.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I can get behind this if the designs were kept straight, but that's not always the case, and the timing isn't great when there looks like an update on the horizon.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Per all, especially since the recent design is a Kong-lomeration of the pre- and post-Rare designs.
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| #{{User|Jdtendo}} I think that the whole "Cranky Kong was the original Donkey Kong" shtick was just a one-off joke for the original ''DKC'' that should not be taken too seriously, especially considering that the ''Mario'' and ''DK'' canons are extremely inconsistent, including [[Cranky_Kong#Identity_confusion|the relation between Cranky and Donkey Kong]].
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per all, the lore of Cranky being the original Donkey Kong is not as consistent as this proposal makes it out to be. Also, see [[Paper Mario (character)]].
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| #{{User|Rykitu}} Please no
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| #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Generally, people are looking for information about Donkey Kong on the Donkey Kong article, including the game ''Donkey Kong'' which stars Donkey Kong.
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| #{{User|Arend}} Yeah no, per all. (Also to add on Camwoodstock's point: in the 2023 movie, Cranky Kong is never referred to as "Donkey Kong" and never even went to New York to kidnap Pauline and fight Mario: he meets Mario for the first time when he, Peach and Toad visit his Jungle Kingdom - meaning that the Donkey Kong there, despite being Cranky's son in the movie, isn't Donkey Kong Jr., either, in case that's a proposal you planned to do as well)
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} i feel like placing my vote here might be a bit overkill, but per most, particularly Nintendo101 and Salmancer
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| #{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.
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| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
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| Should I add an option where we consider DK to always be DK and Cranky to not? Because it doesn't make sense to me to have two characters who are clearly different to be the same character.--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 20:48, January 30, 2025 (EST) | | Should I add an option where we consider DK to always be DK and Cranky to not? Because it doesn't make sense to me to have two characters who are clearly different to be the same character.--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 20:48, January 30, 2025 (EST) |
| :Accept that you're going to have disagreements. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:54, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| How do you propose [[Donkey Kong (Game Boy)]], the [[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (series)]] that succeeded it, and [[Super Mario Odyssey]] be covered under this? --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:58, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| Cranky is DK in [[Donkey Kong (Game Boy)]], not in the [[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (series)]], and yes is DK in Odyssey since its the arcade DK. You all should consider that the Hero's Shade is a different character from the Hero of Twilight. If both characters had articles, it wouldn't make sense to say they're both the Hero of Time. The Hero's Shade (NPC Link) is the Hero of Time and the playable Link is the Hero of Twilight. They're both Link, but they are separate versions of Link. This situation is the same way, Donkey Kong and Cranky are both Donkey Kong but DK is the DKC DK and Cranky is the DK DK. They're separate versions of DK like how the two Links are separate versions of Link. Also, with Camwoodstock's point, when has Nintendo ever after Cranky's introduction into the series claimed he is '''NOT''' the original DK? --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 21:04, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| :But if you mean to say appearance matters more in the context of the arcade sprite than the character design, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t5DetuBMOY&t=40s then...] (Also, a few lines in the Wii DKCR manual implied that Retro's Cranky might be Rare's DK, but I think that idea's been nixed.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:24, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| I would support an option to split the pre-DKC / non-DKC info into a separate article ("Papa Donkey Kong" or "Donkey Kong (arcade)" or something) rather than to relocate it to Cranky's. For the same reason the babies and Dr. Mario have their own pages, they're variations of characters that have enough individual info to warrant an individual page. The arcade DK is different from Cranky for obvious reasons, but also from the Modern DK, due to the different design, different characterization, and different context in time which he was relevant. The concept of Cranky being the arcade DK and Modern DK being a different person have been referenced as recently as DKCRHD, and trailers for DKCTF. I mean, Cranky's post-Rare design takes heavy cues from GB DK, so it's always there. On a separate note, I think it's silly to use MT64 as an example to argue that Rare's canon is irrelevant when it's the same game that features both Mario and Baby Mario. [[User:DesaMatt|DesaMatt]] ([[User talk:DesaMatt|talk]]) 21:00, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| I guess we could consider Pre-DKC DK to be separate from both which is weird but makes more sense than what we currently are doing with this nonsense. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 21:14, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| :Not sure if I support it, but this ''might'' be a more agreeable idea. (Though for clarification, I at least was referring to the [[Game & Watch Gallery (series)|''Game & Watch Gallery'' series]] and [[Mario Clash#Cameos|that one Virtual Boy cameo]] - they've gotta link to one of these articles.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:19, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| <s>Shameless plugs but it'd help a lot if more people could vote on my [[Gallery talk:Super Mario (Kodansha manga)#Split Waluigi (Super Mario Land 2: 6-tsu no Kinka 2)|Waluigi proposal]] and my [[Talk:Dr. Luigi (character)#Split Dr. Luigi (character) from History of Luigi|Dr. Luigi proposal]].</s>--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 21:29, January 30, 2025 (EST)
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| :{{@|Pizza Master}} I understand you mean well, but please do not ask other users to vote on proposals. It is considered [[MarioWiki:Courtesy|discourteous behavior]] in our policies. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:10, January 31, 2025 (EST)
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| ::Per N101. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:26, January 31, 2025 (EST)
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| My mistake. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 01:16, February 1, 2025 (EST)
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| == To the Donkey Kong III article ==
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| Well, technically he is Donkey Kong III because his father is Donkey Kong Jr while Kranky was the Original Donkey Kong. Right? [[Special:Contributions/172.58.49.151|172.58.49.151]] 03:20, February 14, 2025 (EST)
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