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| ::If the original Japanese name is just an English word, we're free to write them in English. A good example of this is ''Sūpā Mario Fushigi no Korokoro Pāti'', whose article is titled [[Super Mario Fushigi no Korokoro Party|''Super Mario'' Fushigi no Korokoro ''Party'']]. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 12:39, 16 August 2017 (EDT) | | ::If the original Japanese name is just an English word, we're free to write them in English. A good example of this is ''Sūpā Mario Fushigi no Korokoro Pāti'', whose article is titled [[Super Mario Fushigi no Korokoro Party|''Super Mario'' Fushigi no Korokoro ''Party'']]. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 12:39, 16 August 2017 (EDT) |
| :::Shouldn't it be called "Kometto Chico," since the original Japanese name is preferable to the French translation? [[User:Raymond1922A|Raymond1922A]] ([[User talk:Raymond1922A|talk]]) 21:51, 10 May 2018 (EDT) | | :::Shouldn't it be called "Kometto Chico," since the original Japanese name is preferable to the French translation? [[User:Raymond1922A|Raymond1922A]] ([[User talk:Raymond1922A|talk]]) 21:51, 10 May 2018 (EDT) |
| ::::I think the rationale for that is supposedly due to the {{file link|Lumacomete.png|French-language text}} being the [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming_an_article|first international name]], but that's not true. It might be the case for ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' since the North American release predates the Japanese release, but it's vice versa for the first ''Super Mario Galaxy''. In-game, Butler/Polari does indeed refer to it as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIqX2IY9lI&t=9m53s Kometto Chico] (the corresponding English line is "''If you want to learn more about these curious comets, ask the '''Luma who knows about such things.'''''"), which we would render as [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects_with_Japanese_names|Comet Tico]]. Or we could wait until the English translation of ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' comes out, since it's listed among the other NPCs on page 126. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:05, 11 May 2018 (EDT) | | ::::I think the rationale for that is supposedly due to the {{media link|Lumacomete.png|French-language text}} being the [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming_an_article|first international name]], but that's not true. It might be the case for ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' since the North American release predates the Japanese release, but it's vice versa for the first ''Super Mario Galaxy''. In-game, Butler/Polari does indeed refer to it as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcIqX2IY9lI&t=9m53s Kometto Chico] (the corresponding English line is "''If you want to learn more about these curious comets, ask the '''Luma who knows about such things.'''''"), which we would render as [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects_with_Japanese_names|Comet Tico]]. Or we could wait until the English translation of ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' comes out, since it's listed among the other NPCs on page 126. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:05, 11 May 2018 (EDT) |
| :::::I think it would actually be "Comet Chico". [[User:Raymond1922A|Raymond1922A]] ([[User talk:Raymond1922A|talk]]) 21:08, 13 May 2018 (EDT) | | :::::I think it would actually be "Comet Chico". [[User:Raymond1922A|Raymond1922A]] ([[User talk:Raymond1922A|talk]]) 21:08, 13 May 2018 (EDT) |
| ::::::Makes sense, since that's the route Dark Horse went with ''Zelda: Arts and Artifacts'' (which was kinda disappointing...), but it still remains to be seen what they'll do here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:09, 13 May 2018 (EDT) | | ::::::Makes sense, since that's the route Dark Horse went with ''Zelda: Arts and Artifacts'' (which was kinda disappointing...), but it still remains to be seen what they'll do here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:09, 13 May 2018 (EDT) |
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| ::::::::::::It would be swapped to "Comet Tico" since most of the time filenames only consist of "base" first and descriptor second so that related objects are grouped together (also it would be more consistent with the order of the Japanese name). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:51, 23 October 2018 (EDT) | | ::::::::::::It would be swapped to "Comet Tico" since most of the time filenames only consist of "base" first and descriptor second so that related objects are grouped together (also it would be more consistent with the order of the Japanese name). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:51, 23 October 2018 (EDT) |
| :::::::::::::Dark Horse was incompetent at this. We can't cite the encyclopedia, but is it still the english name because it's in an officially licensed encyclopedia? Also, does it have a passing mention on the Prima, or isn't mentioned at all? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:41, 27 January 2019 (EST) | | :::::::::::::Dark Horse was incompetent at this. We can't cite the encyclopedia, but is it still the english name because it's in an officially licensed encyclopedia? Also, does it have a passing mention on the Prima, or isn't mentioned at all? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:41, 27 January 2019 (EST) |
| ::::::::::::::No, that would defeat the purpose of the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Citing the Super Mario Encyclopedia|proposal]]; even the partial citation option was only meant for apparent new names (e.g. the ''Super Mario 64'' section's "Micro Koopa" and "Micro Piranha Plant"). "Lumacomète" was part of the co-translator's self-admitted tendency to take from wiki souces ('''despite''' there being a nice, big disclaimer for our foreign and conjectural titles), and thus citing it would be citing ourselves. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:05, 28 January 2019 (EST) | | ::::::::::::::No, that would defeat the purpose of the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 52#Citing the Super Mario Encyclopedia|proposal]]; even the partial citation option was only meant for apparent new names (e.g. the ''Super Mario 64'' section's "Micro Koopa" and "Micro Piranha Plant"). "Lumacomète" was part of the co-translator's self-admitted tendency to take from wiki souces ('''despite''' there being a nice, big disclaimer for our foreign and conjectural titles), and thus citing it would be citing ourselves. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:05, 28 January 2019 (EST) |
| :::::::::::::::I wasn't asking to cite it. Also, i don't think it's mentioned on the [[Prima]]. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:12, 28 January 2019 (EST) | | :::::::::::::::I wasn't asking to cite it. Also, i don't think it's mentioned on the [[Prima]]. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:12, 28 January 2019 (EST) |
| ::::::::::::::::It isn't, unfortunately. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:19, 14 February 2019 (EST) | | ::::::::::::::::It isn't, unfortunately. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:19, 14 February 2019 (EST) |
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| == Move to Lumacomete == | | == Move to Lumacomete == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-8|Keep as Comet Tico}}
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| Oh boy, this might be my most controversial proposal yet. The wiki [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Citing_the_Super_Mario_Encyclopedia|previously banned the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' as a source for English names]] due to Dark Horse's [https://twitter.com/SMWikiOfficial/status/1054818140675284993 laziness in using fan-made ones from the wiki for certain English subjects.] But then, the English Mario Portal came to accept that book's citogenesis as acceptable. As a result, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially_unban_citing_the_English_version_of_the_Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia_as_official_names_for_subjects|we overturned that decision]], [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable_sources_for_naming|but we are still keeping it as a last resort if no other English names exist.]] Lumacomete is one of those characters with their names taken from this wiki. It was its French name, so it was even more of an epic fail. Now, I am aware the uban did make an exception not to use that name because it has an internal one and the wiki ''does'' state that we need to use an internal name if no other names can be found. However, it is '''Japanese''' and not '''English'''. It already has a name for the English language in that cursed book. Since we have unbanned that book when it comes to English names, let's sadly go with that one. | | Oh boy, this might be my most controversial proposal yet. The wiki [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Citing_the_Super_Mario_Encyclopedia|previously banned the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' as a source for English names]] due to Dark Horse's [https://twitter.com/SMWikiOfficial/status/1054818140675284993 laziness in using fan-made ones from the wiki for certain English subjects.] But then, the English Mario Portal came to accept that book's citogenesis as acceptable. As a result, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially_unban_citing_the_English_version_of_the_Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia_as_official_names_for_subjects|we overturned that decision]], [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable_sources_for_naming|but we are still keeping it as a last resort if no other English names exist.]] Lumacomete is one of those characters with their names taken from this wiki. It was its French name, so it was even more of an epic fail. Now, I am aware the uban did make an exception not to use that name because it has an internal one and the wiki ''does'' state that we need to use an internal name if no other names can be found. However, it is '''Japanese''' and not '''English'''. It already has a name for the English language in that cursed book. Since we have unbanned that book when it comes to English names, let's sadly go with that one. |
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| :"''Per [[MarioWiki:Naming|our policy]], development names have higher priority than Encyclopedia.''" | | :"''Per [[MarioWiki:Naming|our policy]], development names have higher priority than Encyclopedia.''" |
| :Also, when two names are on the same tier, we use the name that came from the first released version of the game. In the case of SMG, it's Japan. So even without the internal name it would still be in our policy's best interest to use "Comet Tico" and not "Lumacometé". {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 19:45, February 23, 2023 (EST) | | :Also, when two names are on the same tier, we use the name that came from the first released version of the game. In the case of SMG, it's Japan. So even without the internal name it would still be in our policy's best interest to use "Comet Tico" and not "Lumacometé". {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 19:45, February 23, 2023 (EST) |
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| ==Move to Lumacomète==
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| {{TPP}} {{Early notice}}
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| I get it. "Why are you, of all people, suggesting this nonsense?" The above proposal was made way before [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#A reconsidering of "derived names"|this one]], so I think it's only fair we reconsider this once again. Here's a fact that might not be liked, but it's still a fact nonetheless: "Lumacomète" is more official than "Comet Luma" as things currently stand. Maybe there wasn't much of a thought to it ending up in an English book, but at the end of the day, it came from an official in-game source to begin with. Sure, "Comet Luma" might be the name they give it later if there's another chance, why not; however, this is asking for us to chase citogenesis forever. "[[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Did]] [[Fire Nipper Plant|they]] [[Barrel Bomb|copy]] <s>[[Croaka Cola|fans]]</s>?" I don't know, but I believe it'd be better to do some more preventative actions now so we don't have to ask that question later. The current title is a derived fan-name, and this proposal will help determine if the new derived-name system will be a last resort - yes, below ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''. If this passes, Lumacomète will be marked as <nowiki>{{encyclopedia}}</nowiki> and treated as any other name in that category until the day ever comes where we can, without worry, call it Comet Luma (or whatever NoA comes up with).
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': January 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} deux avis valent mieux qu'un.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} I honestly always thought its reasoning for being excluded from [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially unban citing the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia as official names for subjects|this proposal]] was a bit shaky, considering that "Comet Tico" (from which the current title is derived) is Japanese while "Lumacomète" is (according to Encyclopedia) English. And in the words of the new [[Template:Derivation|derived name template]], "If an official English name is found that differs from the current name, then the article should be moved to the new title." Per proposal.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Par l'avis de tous.
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} I would prefer seeing this character's article moved to "Comet Chiko" before the French name. When an English name is not available, I believe a character created and designed in Japan, in a Japanese work by creators from Japan, is better represented by a Romanization of its Japanese name. It is not a French character.
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| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per Nintendo101.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Lumacomète is only an "English name" because of what we know for a fact to be an uncritical mistake while writing the Encyclopedia, let's not throw discretion out the window here. Per N101.
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} Per Nintendo101.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per Nintendo101.
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| #{{User|Technetium}} Per Nintendo101.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Nintendo101 and Waluigi Time.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all.
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| #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
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| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Shall we move all of the other derived names back too?
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| #{{User|Arend}} The only reason "Lumacomète" can be considered an official English name for this character is because the translators at Dark Horse took this name indiscriminately from ''our'' Wiki (instead of contacting Nintendo itself), without checking the notice on the page that the name comes from another language; citogenesis and circular reporting at its finest (and poor research too). Per all.
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| #{{User|Qyzxf}} per Nintendo101 - I think Comet Chiko is the only reasonable alternative in my opinion, SMBE notwithstanding. We all know this specific name holds no ground in English and was just plucked off here, and saying it should count anyway even though we know it's inaccurate feels disingenuous
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| ===Comments===
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| FYI for anyone bringing up [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|policy priority]]: The only reason development names are higher than ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' names is precisely because of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially unban citing the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia as official names for subjects|my partial-unban proposal]] and I figured it was an acceptable spot so that we can safely leave this as Comet Tico. However, another proposal added an even lower priority than the ''Encyclopedia'', so that was already outdated before the derived-names proposal. Realistically, only dev data, site filenames, and foreign names make sense to use as derived names. Why not just make a proposal that cuts the middleman and swaps <nowiki>{{dev data}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{encyclopedia}}</nowiki>? Firstly, I'd have to review all the potential consequences of that, and secondly, it's to establish that, if you use a derived name, it should be low priority anyway. (Also, as a transliteration, it doesn't truly apply.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:21, January 5, 2025 (EST)
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| Somewhat relevant: regardless of this proposal's outcome, I feel like we should acknowledge Encyclopedia names on pages even if they aren't being used as the title, since it's information that makes sense to document (and is already listed on the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]] page itself), like how the [[Polterpiranha]] article acknowledges the "Ghost" name despite not using it as the title, and the [[Nipper Dandelion]] article actually explains the situation where we aren't sure if they took the name from the wiki. In other words, if this proposal fails, I think the article should still say something like "'''Comet Luma''', known as '''Lumacomète''' in the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'',[citation] is a unique [[Luma]] found in..." etc. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:59, January 5, 2025 (EST)
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| @Nintendo101: The point of the proposal is that an English name ''is'' available, because Lumacomète's usage in the English version of the encyclopedia makes it an official English name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:59, January 5, 2025 (EST)
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| :I understand the argument. I don't agree with it. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:01, January 5, 2025 (EST)
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| So, shall we move all the derived names back such as moving Fire Spike back to Fire Gabon? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:55, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| :The previous name of this article was Comet Tico, not Lumacomète. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:39, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| ::I'm personally of the view that the romanization of Japanese names (for the reasons outlined of my vote) should be prioritized over internal file designations. The former is the rendering of a name intended for the playerbase, and is part of how the piece is to be sincerely understood. Internal filenames, while good to have in lieu of anything else, are not. A proposal aimed to amend this is kinda moot with the derived names proposal that had passed recently, but I still believe this to be a more accurate and sincere way to present the contents of these games. "Comet Tico" went under the radar for me when I worked on the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' page because I uncritically thought it was a romanization, not as a data-derived name. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:17, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| :::It's not technically wrong - it's just not Hepburn, which tends to be the system that non-Japanese are taught. It doesn't surprise me that developers, especially older ones, might favor other methods. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:53, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Well, it also isn't the romanization that would later be used officially (that would be "Chiko"), but then again, "Pakkun" is usually officially romanized as "Packun", earlier media aside. That's something I'd like to see approached differently. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:57, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Oh, I know it is not wrong. I hope I didn't imply otherwise. Perhaps a better example of my line of thinking is, say, if [[Cosmic block|this object]] had no English names attributed to it, I would prefer we prioritize titling its article "Fushigi Block" over "Assembly Block." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:59, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::I've been thinking something similar: a reshuffling of the tiers may be in order (Nintendo guides higher, dev data lower, in some way). I just need to make sure all I have all the affected articles down pat and that it makes sense. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:03, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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| :{{@|PrincessPeachFan}} if this proposal does not pass, the status quo is to be retained, which would be the article title "Comet Luma." One would have to repeal the recent derived names proposal if they wanted to move names back to things like "Fire Gabon," but that saw a lot of support, and I personally have felt more comfortable with it with the integration of the <nowiki>{{derived}}</nowiki> template alongside mentioning of these names on other articles, personally. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:22, January 6, 2025 (EST)
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