Editing Talk:Clothing

Well done on the clothing, Monty Mole. That's a big contribution you made. <span style="font-family:Kunstler Script; color:#006633;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Wayoshi|W]]'''ayoshi</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Wayoshi|T]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Wayoshi|C]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Emailuser/Wayoshi|@]] )</small> 00:34, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

:Thanks, Wayoshi. [[User: Monty Mole|<span style="font-family:BrushScrD; color:#C0D9D9;"><font size="3"><i>Monty Mole]]</i></font></span> (<span style="font-family:Vrinda">[[User talk:Monty Mole|Talk]]&middot;[[Special: Contributions/Monty Mole|Contribs]]</span>) 20:08, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

== Wait a minute... ==

The Gold Beanies don't drop the Chuckola Pants! [[User:Superchao|Superchao]] 14:24, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

. . .I could have sworn they did. All right. Unless someone can get them, I'll remove it. [[User: Monty Mole|<span style="font-family:BrushScrD; color:#C0D9D9;"><font size="3"><i>Monty Mole]]</i></font></span> (<span style="font-family:Vrinda">[[User talk:Monty Mole|Talk]]&middot;[[Special: Contributions/Monty Mole|Contribs]]</span>) 20:08, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

== Siphon Gloves ==

I thought I bought the siphon gloves from a store in [[Toad Town]]!--<span style="color:blue;">ω</span> [[User:Omega1|<span style="color:red;">Ω1</span>]] <span style="color:blue;">ω</span> 12:45, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

== Bye-Bye Gloves ==

I know there's a second pair. The first pair is at the start of Bowser Path - you've got to drill on the X in the corner, then rush up to the higher platform. There's another pair which I got pretty soon after that first pair. I think it's also along Bowser Path somewhere, but I'm not actually sure; I can't remember where I picked up this second pair. So, if anyone remembers where it is, please make sure I got it right!

In any case, I'll be playing through the game again soon, so when I find the gloves next time round, I'll make sure it's correct. [[User:Avengah|Avengah]] 18:14, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

:Never mind, I just Googled it. It seems the second pair IS on Bowser Path, just past the castle, so I didn't get it wrong! Hehe [[User:Avengah|Avengah]] 18:16, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

== KO Shell? ==

What does it really do? The description is vague, and I just tried it. It didn't work. Can anyone clarify it, please? [[User:Avengah|Avengah]] 22:10, 14 April 2011 (EDT)
:And having done some random-ish testing, I've finally found out what it does completely by accident. Is that not globin? [[User:Avengah|Avengah]] 05:48, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

== ML:DT Antiair Boots ==

Has anyone collected a pair of Antiair Boots from Dream Team? According to this wiki and the Prima guide, they're dropped from Goombas, but I haven't been seeing them and the Prima guide is contradictory by not only having the drop rate omitted in one place, but they're not even listed in the enemy stats page. Not really a big deal as you can obtain the Antiair Boots DX much later in the game, but I'm wanting to know they're just very rare. --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 14:14, 24 September 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, I have a pair on my Hard Mode file. They must be pretty rare, though, seeing as the one I have on that was the first pair I've ever picked up. {{User|Icemario11}}

==ML:DT Soft Hammer DX==
Anyone knows which order the Soft Hammers DX dropped from Shy Guy Airtub Rs appear in the Hammers section? I presume it's listed before the Expert Challenge Hammers since it's obtained in Neo Bowser Castle, but I want to know for sure. --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 15:43, 22 October 2013 (EDT)

== ML:DT Hiking Boots ==
It appears that the maximum power that the boots can reach is 150. Power is increased by 1 for every 83.125 steps, so you get the maximum power at 9975 steps. [[Special:Contributions/71.214.124.42|71.214.124.42]] 06:37, 20 January 2014 (EST)

== In-game descriptions (ML:PIT and ML:BIS) ==

Shouldn't they be in the table? They are for ML:SS and ML:DT. I don't have them all so I don't want to stick in an incomplete column but in [[Mario_%26_Luigi:_Partners_in_Time|ML:PIT]], descriptions include:
<br />

Wafer Slacks: Lightweight slacks perfect for just lazing about.<br />
Wild Trousers: Out-of-control trousers for those who don't care about taking damage.<br />
Puffy Trousers: Fluffy, heart-friendly wool trousers made of the newest hip fabric.<br />
Adult Trousers: trousers to bring out the best in any adult. If these don't work...<br />
Block trousers: Trousers with hard blocks built into 'em. Rolling around not advised.<br />
Para Slacks: Light slacks with Parakoopa wings that give a tremendous speed boost.<br />
Space Trousers: The efficacy of these trousers belies their otherworldly appearance.<br />
Supreme Slacks: No complaints here! These are the pinnacle of slacks! Treasure them!<br />
Royal Trousers: The finest trousers in all the land. The pinnacle of tailor-made talent!<br />
Shell Slacks: Hardy slacks with shell plating. It takes courage to wear 'em in public.<br />
Branded Slacks: World famous and well-made slacks that will last and last.<br />
Patched Slacks: Not much to look at, but tough. No complaints!
<br />

Silky Pants: Sleek and comfy pants that are the ultimate in loungewear.<br />
Unarmed jeans: Power-granting jeans that turn the wearer into a reckless beserker.<br />
Heart Pants: Heart-covered pants that are cute and slightly increase heart points.<br />
Secret jeans: Jeans that somehow make the wearer appear more mature.<br />
Golden Pants: Undeniably comfy pants that are as bright as the sun to boot!<br />
Stache Points: Jeans that increase Stache points when worn with the right gear!<br />
Rocket Jeans: The efficacy of these jeans belies their otherworldly appearance.<br />
100-Point Pants: No complaints here! These are the best pants around! Wash gently.<br />
Royal Pants: The finest pants in all the land. The pinnacle of tailor-made talent.<br />
Egg Pants: Durable pants made from eggshells. The egg design is something special!<br />
Preferred Pants: High quality pants made from specially selected materials.<br />
Starchy Jeans: Built for strength, not comfort. Move too quickly, it may hurt...

== Split everything here ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|4-0|split}}
So a while back, I hade every item list for ''Super Mario RPG'' split. I'm playing through the M&L games again right now, and have noticed that so many of these (aside from the PiT) have unique additional effects ''and'' many of the later ones (notably hammers) appear in multiple games. As such, I feel it would be most appropriate to have a separate article for every individual item on here, similar to the SMRPG [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars#Armor|armor]].

Currently, my only hang-up is only having a comprehensive JP name list for the SS GBA ones.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 12, 2021, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal. I should point out that Paper Jam has a lot of returning equipment from Dream Team with the same effects, so these should be the same article as each other.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} They should each make for good enough articles.

===Oppose===


===Comments===
==Keep the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing pages as list articles==
{{TPP}}
Back in 2021, a proposal passed to [[Talk:Clothing#Split everything here|split every single clothing item from the ''Mario & Luigi'' series]]. Since then, nobody has implemented this proposal (probably due to the massive undertaking that it is), and I believe it should be overturned for a number of reasons.

# '''Each page's content would be extremely small and repetitive.''' Every page would follow the pattern of "'''Name''' is a type of Clothing in ''Mario & Luigi Game''. It is a ''[type of clothing]'' that can be found at ''[store/drop/etc]'' and has ''[stats]''." Unlike the [[Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars#Armor|Armor]] from ''[[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|Super Mario RPG]]'', no article of clothing even gets its own image, instead taking from a set of generic sprites each game. All relevant information can and already is conveyed through the tables from their respective pages. Sure, they are a bit long, but that is the reason these pages are made in the first place.
# '''There are literally hundreds of those items.''' in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions]]'', there are already over a hundred items between clothing and badges. Count up to ''[[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]]'' and we have well over five hundred of them. Is it really worth it to have over five hundred stub pages of barely three lines of information and not even a unique icon? 
#'''Missing information can still be added to the table articles.''' From the original proposal, the only piece of information lacking in the current pages is regarding returning gear between games. That's a vastly low percentage of the total gear in the series. This information can simply be added as notes at the bottom of each page, pointing to the relevant items above, or through some other method that can be discussed at a later point.

The original proposal only gathered four votes. Before making 500+ pages, I'd like to see a stronger consensus from the community. If the problem with the current list articles is that they are too long, then I also suggest a middle ground of splitting the Clothing based on type and game. For example, {{Fake link|List of Boots in ''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story''}}, {{Fake link|List of Hammers in ''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam''}}, etc.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LadySophie17}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>July 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to July 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Keep the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing pages as list articles by game====
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Primary choice.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all, particularly Pseudo.  The fact that the original proposal was never implemented due to the massive undertaking and a general sense of this being a low priority underscores that it is not needed.
<strike>{{User|Pseudo}} This is a highly sensible proposal, and the fact that no one has actually stepped up to create these 500+ articles after almost three whole years is quite telling. I don't think that splitting different types of gear into separate articles is useful either, since they already have sections on each respective page and are perfectly navigable as-is.</strike>

====Split the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing list articles by clothing type and game====
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I actually like this idea better.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Personal preference. This strikes a balance of being more organized and having more room for clarification, while not flooding the wiki with a bunch of short articles. (As an aside, we dislike the idea of calling them "stubs" as if it's a bad thing, and also as if [[Pesky Billboard|an article's byte size is directly related to how feature-complete it is]].)
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Technetium}} Secondary choice.

====Continue with the 2021 split proposal====
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Per my original proposal. It doesn't matter if they'd be short, as short does not mean stub. I wouldn't get rid of the lists completely (ideally, they'd go on the respective game pages as was done with the SMRPG armor), and there is no reason whatsoever these should be treated differently from the SMRPG armor. This goes double for badges, which are split for ''every other RPG series they or an analog appear in''. Why should the M&L ones be any different? (As for why I hadn't done so yet, I wanted to give myself a buffer of busywork during lulls of activity.) Also, with them as lists, we can't add the names in other languages without severe bloat. '''EDIT:''' Also per Waluigi Time below. Neither of the proposed alternatives will allow, for example, an easy way of showing that the Beanstar Pants allow you to always move first in battle in the original game and give you a temporary percentile DEF boost in the remake without having to flip between list pages and search for them.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I'm not too convinced by the arguments here. It boils down to the articles would be short (''not'' stubs, a stub is an incomplete article, not a short one, and short articles aren't inherently bad) and there would be a lot of them (why should this be a strike against coverage?). The other RPGs already get their equipment split, so we might as well do that here too, especially with some returning between games. This especially goes for the Superstar Saga and Bowser's Inside Story equipment, which appears at least twice by virtue of being in remakes, but if you want to compare differences (if any) you have to tab between pages. The solution of just adding it to the table marginally solves the issue of that info being completely missing, but doesn't solve the problem of information on the same subject being scattered across multiple articles.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, per the previous proposal, and per consistency with coverage for other RPGs. This would be a big undertaking, sure, but I don't think that alone is enough of a reason to just not do it.
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} There's nothing wrong with having short articles if there's not much to say on them, otherwise we would've done away with the articles for all the MKAGP items a long time ago. Having separate articles gives you much better places to describe the bonus effects of gear that the games themselves are vague about (such as the Iron-Ball Boots/Hammer), describe changes in the remakes, and list names in other languages. I think you're underestimating the amount of gear shared between games; I didn't get around to counting ''all'' the gear shared between DT and PJ, but I did count the boots, hammers, and wear, and out of those, almost 60 of them are in both games, which is a clear ''majority''. Not to mention all the gear shared between the remakes and their originals...
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice, per Waluigi Time. Short =/= bad, so long as they're feature complete, and just because a proposal took a long time to implement doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. ;P
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per all.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} I've been won over by Doc, Waluigi Time, and Dive Rocket Launcher's arguments—after considering this more, I don't think that the articles' shortness should actually be treated as a strike against them; as long as they're feature-complete, they aren't stubs. I was initially against this primarily for navigation and impracticality purposes, but if Doc still plans to create the needed articles I can respect this, and it doesn't seem like the existing gear tables would be removed anyway, which was a primary concern of mine.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.

====Comments====
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} The difference between the Mario & Luigi series gear and Paper Mario series badges in my estimation is that by and large, Mario & Luigi series gear has much less unique functionality, with a lot of it just raising attack or defense or what have you by some amount. There are unique effects to be sure, but some of these are even repeated across different pieces of gear, making them sensibly sorted on a similar article. Mario RPG's armor is definitely a similar situation, but I don't think I would have supported that split either for the same reasons (in fact, Mario RPG's equipment is even more exclusively stats-focused). I do see your point re:names in other languages, but the reasons to keep these as a single list are stronger in my opinion, at least for the moment. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:21, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:The names in other languages can be managed like [[List of Power Moon names in other languages by kingdom (A–K)|this]] if the proposal passes. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:44, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

:Badges in Partners in Time all have different effects. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:01, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

@WaluigiTime That remake thing is actually a ''very'' good point and I'm surprised I missed it in my argument. While scoping out their list articles to see how it would work out, I noticed an enormous amount of "basic stat boost" gear from the GBA game gained unique effects for the remake. (I just kinda wish the GBA game's table was more clear about when shop-based gear becomes available, because I'm not so sure it's 1-1 with the remake in that regard...) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:06, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

It's worth asking oneself if: (A) does being part of a list article inherently mean the subject is of lesser importance than other comparable subjects, and (B) if splitting them up into other articles the best way to provide this information? If these list articles aren't to be removed, then what is in the intrinsic benefit of splitting the individual subjects into their own articles? Is Koopa con Carne's above suggestion inadequate? Why? Just some food for thought. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:47, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:I'd say the primary benefit is better coverage of each individual item, especially for recurring items, helping keep all the information about an item and how it changes in remakes/other games in the same place (this extends to the names in other languages too, Power Moons are a bit different since they're only in one game). And again, consistency with other RPGs. [[List of Badges in Paper Mario]] exists, yet we still give each badge its own page as well. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:00, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
I'll concede that I got what I wanted: More people to look at the old proposal. Since enough people seem to agree with the previous decision, I suppose I can accept any outcome. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 17:51, July 5, 2024 (EDT)