Editing Talk:Clothing

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===Comments===
===Comments===
==Keep the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing pages as list articles==
==Keep the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing pages as list articles==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|6-5-9|continue with split proposal}}
Back in 2021, a proposal passed to [[Talk:Clothing#Split everything here|split every single clothing item from the ''Mario & Luigi'' series]]. Since then, nobody has implemented this proposal (probably due to the massive undertaking that it is), and I believe it should be overturned for a number of reasons.
Back in 2021, a proposal passed to [[Talk:Clothing#Split everything here|split every single clothing item from the ''Mario & Luigi'' series]]. Since then, nobody has implemented this proposal (probably due to the massive undertaking that it is), and I believe it should be overturned for a number of reasons.


# '''Each page's content would be extremely small and repetitive.''' Every page would follow the pattern of "'''Name''' is a type of Clothing in ''Mario & Luigi Game''. It is a ''[type of clothing]'' that can be found at ''[store/drop/etc]'' and has ''[stats]''." Unlike the [[Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars#Armor|Armor]] from ''[[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|Super Mario RPG]]'', no article of clothing even gets its own image, instead taking from a set of generic sprites each game. All relevant information can and already is conveyed through the tables from their respective pages. Sure, they are a bit long, but that is the reason these pages are made in the first place.
# '''Each page's content would be extremely small and repetitive.''' Every page would follow the pattern of "'''Name''' is a type of Clothing in ''Mario & Luigi Game''. It is a ''[type of clothing]'' that can be found at ''[store/drop/etc]'' and has ''[stats]''." Unlike the [[Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars#Armor|Armor]] from ''[[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|Super Mario RPG]]'', no article of clothing even gets its own image, instead taking from a set of generic sprites each game. All relevant information can and already is conveyed through the tables from their respective pages. Sure, they are a bit long, but that is the reason these pages are made in the first place.
# '''There are literally hundreds of those items.''' in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions]]'', there are already over a hundred items between clothing and badges. Count up to ''[[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]]'' and we have well over five hundred of them. Is it really worth it to have over five hundred stub pages of barely three lines of information and not even a unique icon?
# '''There are literally hundreds of those items.''' in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions]]'', there are already over a hundred items between clothing and badges. Count up to ''[[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]]'' and we have well over five hundred of them. Is it really worth it to have over five hundred stub pages of barely three lines of information and not even a unique icon?  
#'''Missing information can still be added to the table articles.''' From the original proposal, the only piece of information lacking in the current pages is regarding returning gear between games. That's a vastly low percentage of the total gear in the series. This information can simply be added as notes at the bottom of each page, pointing to the relevant items above, or through some other method that can be discussed at a later point.
#'''Missing information can still be added to the table articles.''' From the original proposal, the only piece of information lacking in the current pages is regarding returning gear between games. That's a vastly low percentage of the total gear in the series. This information can simply be added as notes at the bottom of each page, pointing to the relevant items above, or through some other method that can be discussed at a later point.


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'''Proposer''': {{User|LadySophie17}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|LadySophie17}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>July 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to July 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': July 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Keep the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing pages as list articles by game====
====Keep the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing pages as list articles by game====
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Primary choice.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Primary choice.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Pseudo}} This is a highly sensible proposal, and the fact that no one has actually stepped up to create these 500+ articles after almost three whole years is quite telling. I don't think that splitting different types of gear into separate articles is useful either, since they already have sections on each respective page and are perfectly navigable as-is.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all, particularly Pseudo.  The fact that the original proposal was never implemented due to the massive undertaking and a general sense of this being a low priority underscores that it is not needed.
<strike>{{User|Pseudo}} This is a highly sensible proposal, and the fact that no one has actually stepped up to create these 500+ articles after almost three whole years is quite telling. I don't think that splitting different types of gear into separate articles is useful either, since they already have sections on each respective page and are perfectly navigable as-is.</strike>
<br><strike>{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.</strike>


====Split the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing list articles by clothing type and game====
====Split the ''Mario & Luigi'' Clothing list articles by clothing type and game====
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I actually like this idea better.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Personal preference. This strikes a balance of being more organized and having more room for clarification, while not flooding the wiki with a bunch of short articles. (As an aside, we dislike the idea of calling them "stubs" as if it's a bad thing, and also as if [[Pesky Billboard|an article's byte size is directly related to how feature-complete it is]].)
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Secondary choice.
<strike>{{User|Jdtendo}} Secondary choice.</strike>


====Continue with the 2021 split proposal====
====Continue with the 2021 split proposal====
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Per my original proposal. It doesn't matter if they'd be short, as short does not mean stub. I wouldn't get rid of the lists completely (ideally, they'd go on the respective game pages as was done with the SMRPG armor), and there is no reason whatsoever these should be treated differently from the SMRPG armor. This goes double for badges, which are split for ''every other RPG series they or an analog appear in''. Why should the M&L ones be any different? (As for why I hadn't done so yet, I wanted to give myself a buffer of busywork during lulls of activity.) Also, with them as lists, we can't add the names in other languages without severe bloat. '''EDIT:''' Also per Waluigi Time below. Neither of the proposed alternatives will allow, for example, an easy way of showing that the Beanstar Pants allow you to always move first in battle in the original game and give you a temporary percentile DEF boost in the remake without having to flip between list pages and search for them.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Per my original proposal. It doesn't matter if they'd be short, as short does not mean stub. I wouldn't get rid of the lists completely (ideally, they'd go on the respective game pages as was done with the SMRPG armor), and there is no reason whatsoever these should be treated differently from the SMRPG armor. This goes double for badges, which are split for ''every other RPG series they or an analog appear in''. Why should the M&L ones be any different? (As for why I hadn't done so yet, I wanted to give myself a buffer of busywork during lulls of activity.) Also, with them as lists, we can't add the names in other languages without severe bloat.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I'm not too convinced by the arguments here. It boils down to the articles would be short (''not'' stubs, a stub is an incomplete article, not a short one, and short articles aren't inherently bad) and there would be a lot of them (why should this be a strike against coverage?). The other RPGs already get their equipment split, so we might as well do that here too, especially with some returning between games. This especially goes for the Superstar Saga and Bowser's Inside Story equipment, which appears at least twice by virtue of being in remakes, but if you want to compare differences (if any) you have to tab between pages. The solution of just adding it to the table marginally solves the issue of that info being completely missing, but doesn't solve the problem of information on the same subject being scattered across multiple articles.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, per the previous proposal, and per consistency with coverage for other RPGs. This would be a big undertaking, sure, but I don't think that alone is enough of a reason to just not do it.
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} There's nothing wrong with having short articles if there's not much to say on them, otherwise we would've done away with the articles for all the MKAGP items a long time ago. Having separate articles gives you much better places to describe the bonus effects of gear that the games themselves are vague about (such as the Iron-Ball Boots/Hammer), describe changes in the remakes, and list names in other languages. I think you're underestimating the amount of gear shared between games; I didn't get around to counting ''all'' the gear shared between DT and PJ, but I did count the boots, hammers, and wear, and out of those, almost 60 of them are in both games, which is a clear ''majority''. Not to mention all the gear shared between the remakes and their originals...
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice, per Waluigi Time. Short =/= bad, so long as they're feature complete, and just because a proposal took a long time to implement doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea. ;P
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per all.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} I've been won over by Doc, Waluigi Time, and Dive Rocket Launcher's arguments—after considering this more, I don't think that the articles' shortness should actually be treated as a strike against them; as long as they're feature-complete, they aren't stubs. I was initially against this primarily for navigation and impracticality purposes, but if Doc still plans to create the needed articles I can respect this, and it doesn't seem like the existing gear tables would be removed anyway, which was a primary concern of mine.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} The difference between the Mario & Luigi series gear and Paper Mario series badges in my estimation is that by and large, Mario & Luigi series gear has much less unique functionality, with a lot of it just raising attack or defense or what have you by some amount. There are unique effects to be sure, but some of these are even repeated across different pieces of gear, making them sensibly sorted on a similar article. Mario RPG's armor is definitely a similar situation, but I don't think I would have supported that split either for the same reasons (in fact, Mario RPG's equipment is even more exclusively stats-focused). I do see your point re:names in other languages, but the reasons to keep these as a single list are stronger in my opinion, at least for the moment. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:21, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} The difference between the Mario & Luigi series gear and Paper Mario series badges in my estimation is that by and large, Mario & Luigi series gear has much less unique functionality, with a lot of it just raising attack or defense or what have you by some amount. There are unique effects to be sure, but some of these are even repeated across different pieces of gear, making them sensibly sorted on a similar article. Mario RPG's armor is definitely a similar situation, but I don't think I would have supported that split either for the same reasons (in fact, Mario RPG's equipment is even more exclusively stats-focused). I do see your point re:names in other languages, but the reasons to keep these as a single list are stronger in my opinion, at least for the moment. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:21, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:The names in other languages can be managed like [[List of Power Moon names in other languages by kingdom (A–K)|this]] if the proposal passes. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:44, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:The names in other languages can be managed like [[List of Power Moon names in other languages by kingdom (A–K)|this]] if the proposal passes. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:44, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:Badges in Partners in Time all have different effects. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:01, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
@WaluigiTime That remake thing is actually a ''very'' good point and I'm surprised I missed it in my argument. While scoping out their list articles to see how it would work out, I noticed an enormous amount of "basic stat boost" gear from the GBA game gained unique effects for the remake. (I just kinda wish the GBA game's table was more clear about when shop-based gear becomes available, because I'm not so sure it's 1-1 with the remake in that regard...) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:06, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
It's worth asking oneself if: (A) does being part of a list article inherently mean the subject is of lesser importance than other comparable subjects, and (B) if splitting them up into other articles the best way to provide this information? If these list articles aren't to be removed, then what is in the intrinsic benefit of splitting the individual subjects into their own articles? Is Koopa con Carne's above suggestion inadequate? Why? Just some food for thought. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:47, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:I'd say the primary benefit is better coverage of each individual item, especially for recurring items, helping keep all the information about an item and how it changes in remakes/other games in the same place (this extends to the names in other languages too, Power Moons are a bit different since they're only in one game). And again, consistency with other RPGs. [[List of Badges in Paper Mario]] exists, yet we still give each badge its own page as well. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:00, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
I'll concede that I got what I wanted: More people to look at the old proposal. Since enough people seem to agree with the previous decision, I suppose I can accept any outcome. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 17:51, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
On a second thought, I don't care that much whether lists or individual pages should be used, and I removed my votes. I'm simply hoping that if we continue with the 2021 proposal, someone who voted for that option will actually implement the split proposal rather than leave it on the "Unimplemented" pile for years to come. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 09:45, July 15, 2024 (EDT)
==Make a template for a clothing infobox?==
{{talk}}
Now that the above proposal failed and the clothing pages still need to be split, I was wondering how we'd go about that exactly, especially when none of the clothes have unique icons or art. That's when it hit me: Maybe a new template could be made for M&L clothing, sort of similar to the Paper Mario badge template? Showing the important stats, price, description, etc. That would not only look better than a bunch of item infoboxes with the same or no images, and would get information across more efficiently. Also like with Paper Mario badges, I think we should definitely still keep this page and the lists by game, as it allows for easy access to each individual page for more info. Maybe this was already said before and I missed it, though. Anyway, I'd be down for a clothing infobox, but I have no experience making infoboxes and can't make one myself. --[[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 19:18, July 18, 2024 (EDT)
:I support the idea of an infobox for clothing. I think that the first step should be making a list of the properties that shall be included in the template, akin to the following table, before actually implementing it. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 10:31, July 19, 2024 (EDT)
{| style="border-collapse:collapse;margin-left:2em;" cellpadding="3" border="1"
|-
| name
| Name of the gear.
|-
| buy_price
| Purchase price of the gear.
|-
| description
| In-game description of the gear.
|-
| ...
| ...
|-
|}

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