Editing Talk:Chuckola Cola (Mario & Luigi series)

==Split into {{fake link|Chuckola Cola (Mario & Luigi series)}} and {{fake link|Chuckola Cola (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)}}==
{{TPP}}
At this point, it's pretty clear that the two beverages seen in the ''Mario & Luigi'' series and in ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' are simply unrelated, regardless of the reason why the ''Vintage Red'' was renamed to ''Chuckola Cola'' in the English localizations. I propose to split them into the two articles, so we avoid confusion.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Mister Wu}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 24, 2018, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Mister Wu}} I should have come up with this proposal as soon as it became clear that the two beverages were actually unrelated in the original Japanese text and in all the current reported localizations - bar the English one - as well...
#{{User|Alex95}} - The two appear to be very different, and it just looks like the localization team was having some fun with connecting the series.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Though they were designed to resemble alcoholic beverages, the ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'' variant resembles a cocktail and the ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' variant resembles a wine..."SCARLET" wine, in reference to Scarlette.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. Since they have different appearances, and the English name is the only one shared between the two, I feel that it is likely they are unrelated.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} What makes the two different is that in all languages except English and Russian. The later of which we only know MaLSS's. But, there is also a difference in taste. It is mentioned in the texts, though. MaLSS taste is tang and PMTTYD taste is fizziness. Even if there was a data search on PMTTYD and comparing to MaLSS, the best it would be that the English version would be the same. But even then, they should remain split due to taste differences.
#{{User|Sonic98}} Per all
#{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} Per Mister Wu's comments below.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} While I agree something needs done, I don't think this is the right way of going about it. It was a replacement, not a rename, given the graphics were changed.
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} I feel like the name being the same is too much of a deliberate decision to consider them seperate beverages. I don't think we need multiple articles as a result.

====Comments====
Given the graphics were changed in the English version to resemble Chuckola Cola, maybe it should instead have "Vintage Red" as a replaced English-inexclusive item split from here, with the info here still telling about CC being in the English version? In the English version, VR was replaced, not simply renamed. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:12, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
:Regardless, it's still called "Chuckola Cola" in the English version. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:43, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
::And it's a different item from Vintage Red. Again, it's not a rename, it's a replacement. What I'm suggesting is something like "'''Vintage Red''' is an item found in non-English versions of ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''. In the English version, it is replaced with [[Chuckola Cola]] in order to avoid the alcohol reference." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:53, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
:::Except what exactly differentiates it from the English versions (other than "what it is", of course)? Again, I don't see your point. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 22:56, 10 June 2018 (EDT)
::::It's a wine in most versions. In the English version, it's changed to a lavender color like the original Chuckola Cola, and due to the "If it looks and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck" principle, it can be safely assumed that it was a replacement exclusive to the English version, and not just a deliberately-fudged translation like Vivian's dysphoria now being a lack of self-worth. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:14, 10 June 2018 (EDT)

@YSSM Taste is subjective. Even so "fizzy" isn't a taste at all, but a texture, and is dependent on how shaken it would be, and they existed under very different conditions (one being kept in a vat underground laughing for 1000 years, the other bottled up and tossed to a tiny island in a shipwreck). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:21, 10 June 2018 (EDT)

Sorry that I didn't clarify this point before: in the [https://youtu.be/jkKibAWYmE8?list=PLCsyxsclg_0F195oW7S-yWh1Cr-YAVVtx&t=546 Western] [https://youtu.be/cEBmRr_NfDc?list=PL0E861E55FC36B153&t=430 localizations], the [https://youtu.be/6YdV6ZImWIY?t=1850 violet] [https://youtu.be/FK-ACxms1pM?t=862 beverage] is used in place of the red one, the Italian version even calls it [https://youtu.be/FK-ACxms1pM?t=439 ''Vintage Viola'' (''Violet Vintage'') saying that it is a ''pregiato succo di bacche'' (''fine berry juice'') rather than a red wine]. This was likely done because drinking alcohol would have raised the age rating in some Western countries. Still, the Western localizations that use the violet not-necessarily-wine don't use the ''Chuckola Cola'' name except for the English one.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:58, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
:Regardless, I believe that this is not the best way to split them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:04, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
::The text of the proposal can change, if you suggest a new split, I'll add it to the options. Keep in mind your main point was invalidated, though: the Western localizations that use wine-related terms and the Italian localization that uses the ''Vintage Violet'' term all use the English sprite, so it's not ''Chuckola Cola'' exclusive at all and as such you should at least differentiate between Vintage Red and all the Western counterparts, not just the English one.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:47, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
:::Well, given it's referred to essentially as "aged juice" in said versions, which is essentially what wine is (via fermentation through aging), I'm not so sure if my point is really all that invalid. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:07, 11 June 2018 (EDT)

::::In the Italian version of the game the "Vintage viola" is called both wine (vino) and berry juice (succo di bacche). You can see it in this video: [https://youtu.be/FK-ACxms1pM?t=1417]--[[User:Sonic98|Sonic98]] ([[User talk:Sonic98|talk]]) 19:36, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
::::I was talking about your hypothesis that the sprite of the violet beverage was used exclusively in the English version to refer to the ''Chuckola Cola'' - it was instead used in the other Western localizations as well, all of which don't use the ''Chuckola Cola'' term.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:05, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::Ye, and they should probably be split alongside Vintage Red. The thing about magenta is that it's a red, pink, and purple all at once, so the old name would still not really be a misnomer if we went with "Vintage Red" as a title. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:31, 11 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::Due to naming policy, we can't really use ''Vintage Red'' name for the page even though in my opinion too it would be a clearer title that helps better identifying the beverage for what it is in the original Japanese version as well as most Western localizations: the English-speaking readers this wiki is catered toward are likely searching for the name of the beverage they find in the English localization of the game, which is ''Chuckola Cola''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:25, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::Again, the beverage in the English version is not the same as the one in other versions, regardless of color, as in the English localization alone it is intended to actually be Chuckola Cola. I'm saying the info ''for the English localization only'' would stay on this page, as it was replaced with Chuckola Cola in that version alone, and the item from other localizations, which ''is'' distinct, would get split off. I know this is a little hard to explain, but bear with me here please... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:36, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::::I see your point now and you're free to express your opposition to the split, which will be kept. Keep in mind that it's not possible to just split the versions of the other localizations - the approach of this page is item-based so it is either split in full or not. We also always refer to the English localizations where available. Creating separate pages for regional variations of items so we can create a specific page for the Japanese ''Vintage Red'' that uses a different sprite would require a revision of the [[MarioWiki:Version differences|Version differences policy]] which we can discuss, but I think that changes should be done at that level before we can propose that here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:04, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Split into {{fake link|Chuckola Cola (Mario & Luigi series)}} and {{fake link|Chuckola Cola (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)}}==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-2|split}}
 At this point, it's pretty clear that the two beverages seen in the ''Mario & Luigi'' series and in ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' are simply unrelated, regardless of the reason why the ''Vintage Red'' was renamed to ''Chuckola Cola'' in the English localizations. I propose to split them into the two articles, so we avoid confusion.
@@ Line 15: / Line 14: @@
 #{{User|Sonic98}} Per all
 #{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} Per Mister Wu's comments below.
-#{{User|Kolafloro}} They have different designs, so, per all.
 ====Oppose====
@@ Line 40: / Line 38: @@
 ::::::Due to naming policy, we can't really use ''Vintage Red'' name for the page even though in my opinion too it would be a clearer title that helps better identifying the beverage for what it is in the original Japanese version as well as most Western localizations: the English-speaking readers this wiki is catered toward are likely searching for the name of the beverage they find in the English localization of the game, which is ''Chuckola Cola''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:25, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
 :::::::Again, the beverage in the English version is not the same as the one in other versions, regardless of color, as in the English localization alone it is intended to actually be Chuckola Cola. I'm saying the info ''for the English localization only'' would stay on this page, as it was replaced with Chuckola Cola in that version alone, and the item from other localizations, which ''is'' distinct, would get split off. I know this is a little hard to explain, but bear with me here please... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:36, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
-::::::::I see your point now and you're free to express your opposition to the split, which will be kept. Keep in mind that it's not possible to just split the versions in the other languages - the approach of this page is item-based so it is either split in full or not. We also always refer to the English localizations where available for the titles of the pages. Creating separate pages for regional variations of items so we can create a specific page for the Japanese ''Vintage Red'' that uses a different sprite would require a revision of the [[MarioWiki:Version differences|Version differences policy]] which we can discuss, but I think that changes should be done at that level before we can propose that here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:04, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
+::::::::I see your point now and you're free to express your opposition to the split, which will be kept. Keep in mind that it's not possible to just split the versions of the other localizations - the approach of this page is item-based so it is either split in full or not. We also always refer to the English localizations where available. Creating separate pages for regional variations of items so we can create a specific page for the Japanese ''Vintage Red'' that uses a different sprite would require a revision of the [[MarioWiki:Version differences|Version differences policy]] which we can discuss, but I think that changes should be done at that level before we can propose that here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 23:04, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
-== Alcohol in Japanese? ==
-I'm not sure I trust that article (to which the link is now dead) saying it was an alcoholic cocktail in Japanese, since the Japanese name clearly calls it soda. Perhaps the author got ''Superstar Saga'' confused with ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''? [[User:Raymond1922A|Raymond1922A]] ([[User talk:Raymond1922A|talk]]) 14:21, October 30, 2022 (EDT)
-:I looked up an archive of the source, and here's the relevant excerpt.
-<blockquote>An analogous case was found in the GBA game ‘Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga’ (Nintendo 2003), which was rated as suitable for those aged 3 and over in Japan. During the epic, arriving in a strange new land, Mario and Luigi gather a huge collection of super alcoholic cocktails that, if mixed up and fermented in the right location, can produce the ultimate cocktail. As the game aimed to be rated as suitable for the same age group both in the US and in Europe, it was imperative for the localizers to forge a new interpretation of the items’ structure, based on the responsibilities of cultural translation. In the American version the ultimate cocktail is not alcoholic, but just a ‘cola’, while in the European versions it is a bizarre blend of fictional ingredients.</blockquote>
-:It's clearly referring to Superstar Saga, but doesn't seem to accurately reflect what actually happens in the game with the Chuckola Cola/Reserve. I'll go ahead and remove it, the names we have clearly contradict this and it's not a source I'd prioritize since it's just someone researching localization changes. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:46, October 30, 2022 (EDT)
-::She actually worked with Nintendo at the time, in particular she's credited as a localizer in both ''[[List of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door staff#Italian Localization|Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]'' and ''[https://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/The_Wind_Waker_Staff The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker]'', two Nintendo games that she mentioned. Before dismissing that part entirely, we'd need to see the actual dialogue and text in there, as it's possible that what is passed as ''soda'' was more or less implicitly an alcoholic beverage in the Japanese version.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:56, October 30, 2022 (EDT)