Editing Talk:Chancellor
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::I don't think that's enough to draw me in. The Minister needs to be ''really'' worried about Peach almost all the time, not because he knows Peach is actually ''in'' mortal danger. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 12:52, 18 December 2018 (EST) | ::I don't think that's enough to draw me in. The Minister needs to be ''really'' worried about Peach almost all the time, not because he knows Peach is actually ''in'' mortal danger. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 12:52, 18 December 2018 (EST) | ||
:::He only appears at three parts of the game, one of which is with nearly every other NPC. You only get to speak with him in two instances, only one of which is repeatable after the following important event (and that instance also being very close to the end), so there's no telling how he feels for over 90% of the game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:03, 18 December 2018 (EST) | :::He only appears at three parts of the game, one of which is with nearly every other NPC. You only get to speak with him in two instances, only one of which is repeatable after the following important event (and that instance also being very close to the end), so there's no telling how he feels for over 90% of the game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:03, 18 December 2018 (EST) | ||
Along with other subjects like Star Hill and several recurring items, it's pretty clear that this character is one of the things that survived the transition from ''Super Mario RPG 2''. Having said that, I've considered reapproaching the topic of having the ''Paper Mario'' subjects somehow split or distinguished from their counterparts due to ''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam'' (I know it was put to a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive | Along with other subjects like Star Hill and several recurring items, it's pretty clear that this character is one of the things that survived the transition from ''Super Mario RPG 2''. Having said that, I've considered reapproaching the topic of having the ''Paper Mario'' subjects somehow split or distinguished from their counterparts due to ''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam'' (I know it was put to a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 44#Deal with the duplicate Paper subjects in Mario .26 Luigi: Paper Jam|proposal]], but it's incredibly awkward when our paper character articles list their first appearances as ''Paper Jam'' despite the name "Paper Mario" existing for the character since at least ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'', not to mention certain other things of note like ''Paper Jam'' having Tower Power Pokey from the previous game and directly hinting at the then-upcoming paper Koopalings make it blatantly obvious that it's supposed to be the same Paper Mario in these games). Not sure how it would go about though - the cleanest method I thought of was maybe proposing to mimic the way Wookieepedia uses tabs for "Canon" and "Legends" articles, but that probably wouldn't be too feasible. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:03, 15 December 2018 (EST) | ||
:@LinkTheLefty We should (re)start the proposal IMO. Is it for splitting the Paper Mario counterparts from the original characters? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:47, 16 December 2018 (EST) | :@LinkTheLefty We should (re)start the proposal IMO. Is it for splitting the Paper Mario counterparts from the original characters? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:47, 16 December 2018 (EST) | ||
::That's the idea, with possibly an option to include items and locations (which could mean that Star Hill gets split three ways). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:55, 22 December 2018 (EST) | ::That's the idea, with possibly an option to include items and locations (which could mean that Star Hill gets split three ways). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:55, 22 December 2018 (EST) | ||
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== Split Chancellor and Minister == | == Split Chancellor and Minister == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
Please allow to begin by apologizing for reopening another can of worms, but I really feel this is an injustice that absolutely needs to be corrected. The Toad Minister and the Chancellor are clearly two different characters, made by two different developers for two different games (yes, I know PM was developed as a "spiritual successor" to SMRPG). I also apologize in advance for the length of what became a dissertation on the subject, but there’s so many points that I feel went unaddressed in previous debates. | Please allow to begin by apologizing for reopening another can of worms, but I really feel this is an injustice that absolutely needs to be corrected. The Toad Minister and the Chancellor are clearly two different characters, made by two different developers for two different games (yes, I know PM was developed as a "spiritual successor" to SMRPG). I also apologize in advance for the length of what became a dissertation on the subject, but there’s so many points that I feel went unaddressed in previous debates. | ||
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#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal. | #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} This is one of the most speculative merges I've ever seen pass and the idea of merging based on similarity rather than being the same thing conflicts with [[Talk:Grab Block#Merge White Block with Grab Block 2|plenty]] [[Talk:Poison Mushroom#Merge Rotten Mushroom into this page|of]] [[Talk:Mushroom Genie#Re-merge Mushroom Genie and Genie of the Lamp|other]] [[Princess|splits]] [[Talk:Warp Block#Warp Box and Warp Block merge?|on]] [[Talk:Super Mini Mario World#Split this article into Super Mini Mario World, Mini Land Theme Park, and Mini Toy Carnival|the]] [[Talk:Golden Pipe#Split this page into Star Pipe and Golden Pipe|wiki]]. Per proposal. | #{{User|Hewer}} This is one of the most speculative merges I've ever seen pass and the idea of merging based on similarity rather than being the same thing conflicts with [[Talk:Grab Block#Merge White Block with Grab Block 2|plenty]] [[Talk:Poison Mushroom#Merge Rotten Mushroom into this page|of]] [[Talk:Mushroom Genie#Re-merge Mushroom Genie and Genie of the Lamp|other]] [[Princess|splits]] [[Talk:Warp Block#Warp Box and Warp Block merge?|on]] [[Talk:Super Mini Mario World#Split this article into Super Mini Mario World, Mini Land Theme Park, and Mini Toy Carnival|the]] [[Talk:Golden Pipe#Split this page into Star Pipe and Golden Pipe|wiki]]. Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I haven't changed my stance on this. Per proposal, and per all. Although, saying "outrageously" replacing Toad General is a bit biased/subjective and redundant, but whatever. I still am not convinced SMRPG and Paper Mario's Ministers/Chancellors are the same guy. | |||
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer especially; we don't see why we shouldn't split these considering we split things that are even more identical than the Chancellor and Minister. | #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer especially; we don't see why we shouldn't split these considering we split things that are even more identical than the Chancellor and Minister. | ||
=== Oppose: Keep merged === | === Oppose: Keep merged === | ||
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#{{User|Arend}} Per fellow opposers, and what I previously iterated [[#Merge Chancellor with Toad Minister|here]]. | #{{User|Arend}} Per fellow opposers, and what I previously iterated [[#Merge Chancellor with Toad Minister|here]]. | ||
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. They're the same picture. | #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. They're the same picture. | ||
=== Comments === | === Comments === | ||
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::::My point with Wizakoopa was that he fulfills the same role in that game as Kamek in other games, and my point with Toad General was that he could be merged to Chancellor for the same reason as Toad Minister, being another Toadsworth stand-in, high-ranking Toad. And I disagree that Chancellor and Toad Minister are unnamed. Chancellor and Toad Minister are names, creative or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:15, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | ::::My point with Wizakoopa was that he fulfills the same role in that game as Kamek in other games, and my point with Toad General was that he could be merged to Chancellor for the same reason as Toad Minister, being another Toadsworth stand-in, high-ranking Toad. And I disagree that Chancellor and Toad Minister are unnamed. Chancellor and Toad Minister are names, creative or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:15, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | ||
:::::They're titles. Again, the [[Mushroom King]]'s various appearances have more differences here, yet they are merged. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:33, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | :::::They're titles. Again, the [[Mushroom King]]'s various appearances have more differences here, yet they are merged. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:33, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | ||
@Blinker: It doesn't mean they aren't the same character, but it also doesn't mean that they are. If there's nothing actually telling us that they are the same, this remains speculation. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:00, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | @Blinker: It doesn't mean they aren't the same character, but it also doesn't mean that they are. If there's nothing actually telling us that they are the same, this remains speculation. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:00, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | ||
This [[MIPS]]hole again, huh? This brought a lot of new arguments to the table; I won't lie; I think this proposal brought a lot of new points and I do appreciate that this addresses most arguments. My two cents at the time was that we are exploring the concept of a generic Toad chancellor character that happened to nearly identical names in Japan and have the same colors for their caps. I think one of the biggest things I have is that while Nintendo has never stated outright they are the same character, they ''have not stated the opposite either,'' leaving it up in the air. There's the also the concept of [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|Canonicity]] and that can leave its own can of worms in regard of whether or not these instances of Toad chancellor are the same character. Part of me feels that another possibly is to put a [[Template:Part conjecture|part conjecture]] as we can definitely say, they could be the same, but they not be, so don't this an official confirmation. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:General disclaimer|Wikis aren't really meant to be reliable information after all.]] This concerns the instances of [[Krash|Kremlings riding minecarts.]] The big thing here is that it is obvious they take inspiration from each other to the point common knowledge suggests they are the same thing. Yes, common knowledge should not be a total qualifier, but it is the reason why this issue is as difficult. I do feel this proposal does attack a strawman to certain degree because, we're not considering merging Pauline with Peach. That's just silly and it's so obvious they are not the same character and no none is suggesting that nor is that it even remotely comparable to two green chancellors who have nearly similar names, with minister being a homage. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 14:53, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | This [[MIPS]]hole again, huh? This brought a lot of new arguments to the table; I won't lie; I think this proposal brought a lot of new points and I do appreciate that this addresses most arguments. My two cents at the time was that we are exploring the concept of a generic Toad chancellor character that happened to nearly identical names in Japan and have the same colors for their caps. I think one of the biggest things I have is that while Nintendo has never stated outright they are the same character, they ''have not stated the opposite either,'' leaving it up in the air. There's the also the concept of [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|Canonicity]] and that can leave its own can of worms in regard of whether or not these instances of Toad chancellor are the same character. Part of me feels that another possibly is to put a [[Template:Part conjecture|part conjecture]] as we can definitely say, they could be the same, but they not be, so don't this an official confirmation. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:General disclaimer|Wikis aren't really meant to be reliable information after all.]] This concerns the instances of [[Krash|Kremlings riding minecarts.]] The big thing here is that it is obvious they take inspiration from each other to the point common knowledge suggests they are the same thing. Yes, common knowledge should not be a total qualifier, but it is the reason why this issue is as difficult. I do feel this proposal does attack a strawman to certain degree because, we're not considering merging Pauline with Peach. That's just silly and it's so obvious they are not the same character and no none is suggesting that nor is that it even remotely comparable to two green chancellors who have nearly similar names, with minister being a homage. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 14:53, June 28, 2024 (EDT) | ||