| Latest revision |
Your text |
| Line 239: |
Line 239: |
|
| |
|
| == Split Chancellor and Minister == | | == Split Chancellor and Minister == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|4-9|keep merged}}
| |
|
| |
|
| Please allow to begin by apologizing for reopening another can of worms, but I really feel this is an injustice that absolutely needs to be corrected. The Toad Minister and the Chancellor are clearly two different characters, made by two different developers for two different games (yes, I know PM was developed as a "spiritual successor" to SMRPG). I also apologize in advance for the length of what became a dissertation on the subject, but there’s so many points that I feel went unaddressed in previous debates. | | Please allow to begin by apologizing for reopening another can of worms, but I really feel this is an injustice that absolutely needs to be corrected. The Toad Minister and the Chancellor are clearly two different characters, made by two different developers for two different games (yes, I know PM was developed as a "spiritual successor" to SMRPG). I also apologize in advance for the length of what became a dissertation on the subject, but there’s so many points that I feel went unaddressed in previous debates. |
| Line 294: |
Line 293: |
| === Support: Split Chancellor and Minister === | | === Support: Split Chancellor and Minister === |
| #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal. | | #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal. |
| #{{User|Hewer}} This is one of the most speculative merges I've ever seen pass and the idea of merging based on similarity rather than being the same thing conflicts with [[Talk:Grab Block#Merge White Block with Grab Block 2|plenty]] [[Talk:Poison Mushroom#Merge Rotten Mushroom into this page|of]] [[Talk:Mushroom Genie#Re-merge Mushroom Genie and Genie of the Lamp|other]] [[Princess|splits]] [[Talk:Warp Block#Warp Box and Warp Block merge?|on]] [[Talk:Super Mini Mario World#Split this article into Super Mini Mario World, Mini Land Theme Park, and Mini Toy Carnival|the]] [[Talk:Golden Pipe#Split this page into Star Pipe and Golden Pipe|wiki]]. Per proposal. | | #{{User|Hewer}} This is one of the most speculative merges I've ever seen pass and conflicts with [[Talk:Grab Block#Merge White Block with Grab Block 2|plenty]] [[Talk:Poison Mushroom#Merge Rotten Mushroom into this page|of]] [[Talk:Mushroom Genie#Re-merge Mushroom Genie and Genie of the Lamp|other]] [[Princess|splits]] [[Talk:Warp Block#Warp Box and Warp Block merge?|on]] [[Talk:Super Mini Mario World#Split this article into Super Mini Mario World, Mini Land Theme Park, and Mini Toy Carnival|the]] [[Talk:Golden Pipe#Split this page into Star Pipe and Golden Pipe|wiki]]. Per proposal. |
| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer especially; we don't see why we shouldn't split these considering we split things that are even more identical than the Chancellor and Minister.
| |
| #{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all.
| |
| <s>#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I haven't changed my stance on this. Per proposal, and per all. Although, saying "outrageously" replacing Toad General is a bit biased/subjective and redundant (i'd deem it'd need to be removed), but whatever. I still am not convinced SMRPG and Paper Mario's Ministers/Chancellors are the same guy.</s>
| |
|
| |
|
| === Oppose: Keep merged === | | === Oppose: Keep merged === |
| #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - As was argued in the original proposal, it doesn't really matter so much if they are or are not the same specific ''character'' s'long as they have the same in-universe ''role'' - look at all the different-looking characters on the [[Mushroom King]] article, for example. A "chancellor" and a "minister" are for all intents and purposes the same thing, and it's best in my opinion to keep all the unnamed proto-Toadsworths from what started as a spiritual successor in one basket.
| |
| #{{user|Blinker}} Even if they may not be the same individual, that doesn't mean they aren't the same character. Just look at Merlon. I also don't understand why this proposal is focusing so much on, erm, Toadsworthology. SMRPG's Chancellor and Paper Mario's Minister have a lot more in common than just being similar to Toadsworth.
| |
| #{{User|Arend}} Per fellow opposers, and what I previously iterated [[#Merge Chancellor with Toad Minister|here]].
| |
| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. They're the same picture.
| |
| #{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|PaperSplash}} To me, it's less about them both being being "Toadsworth-prototypes" to me and more that they share the exact same title in the source language of their respective games, per Doc von Schmeltwick's Mushroom King argument (and said title lacks the significant additional qualifier and contextual difference in role that the Minister of Massage has). The distinction in title was purely introduced in translation which in my opinion makes arguments about their respective semantic differences irrelevant (again, especially given the lack of a significant difference in role in actual context). I feel that this is another case of "this wouldn't even be a debate if the translations stayed consistent" as argued with the Chestnut King/Goomba King in the merge proposal. And as for why their respective translated titles in all other languages don't match unlike the latter's, that mainly comes down to the other European translations of PM and the SMRPG remake (and the Chinese one in the former's case) being largely based on the English one, and the original version of TTYD in contrast had each European language largely refer directly to the original Japanese script and then do their own thing from there (along with them each evidently doing their homework on the Japanese terminology used in the first game and mostly staying consistent with how it initially ended up in their language whenever applicable, except for English which stumbled quite a bit in this area and Italian which didn't have a native translation of the first game to compare with, although they did refer to the English one in some cases). I also don't think the "different studios" argument holds much water in the first PM's case; it ''is'' a spiritual successor to SMRPG and as LinkTheLefty mentioned in the merge proposal, there are [[Star Hill|several]] [[Star Way|other]] [[Dried Mushroom|apparent]] [[Snowman Doll|references]] to SMRPG in the Japanese script of PM that the English translation overlooked, but we still acknowledge all of them to varying extents, so deeming this pure speculation would result in us refusing to acknowledge the clear connections that we acknowledge elsewhere. I also agree with the the arguments Blinker made in this proposal and the previous one in favor of them being merged.
| |
| #{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Come to think of it...
| |
| #{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all. Plus, I think it's likely that the Minister was intended to be the same character as the Chancellor considering their similar looks (albeit with some color differences), identical Japanese title (''daijin''), and the fact that ''Paper Mario'' was originally conceived as a ''Super Mario RPG'' follow-up.
| |
|
| |
|
| === Comments === | | === Comments === |
| @Doc von Schmeltwick: This argument is one I completely fail to understand since it could be used to justify countless other weird merges, as mentioned in the proposal and my vote. If this article is supposed to just be a dumping ground for Toadsworth-like characters, what about [[Toad General]] and [[Toadsworth the Younger]], and even Toadsworth himself? Why are [[Dash Mushroom]] and [[Mushroom]] split? Why are [[Rotten Mushroom]] and [[Poison Mushroom]] (and [[Talk:Poison Mushroom#Split Cursed Mushroom?|potentially Cursed Mushroom]]) split? Why are [[Goombario]] and [[Goombella]] split? The list goes on. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:26, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :In-universe role (as in, their occupation title), not out-of-universe role (as in, their gameplay function). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:41, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::Okay, [[Mushroom Genie]] and [[Genie of the Lamp]]. [[Baby Mario]] and [[Toddler Terrors of Time Travel|baby Mario]]. [[Princess (Paper Mario: Color Splash)|Princess]] and [[Princess (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Princess]]. [[Kamek]] and [[Wizakoopa]]. And again, [[Toad General]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:00, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :::Don't know too much about ''Party'', I had nothing to do with that decision, I'd be happy merging those Chomps, "Kamek" in that game is the species, and Toad General has no counterpart. And again, this doesn't count ''named'' characters, otherwise we could merge both of these to Toadsworth. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:06, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::::My point with Wizakoopa was that he fulfills the same role in that game as Kamek in other games, and my point with Toad General was that he could be merged to Chancellor for the same reason as Toad Minister, being another Toadsworth stand-in, high-ranking Toad. And I disagree that Chancellor and Toad Minister are unnamed. Chancellor and Toad Minister are names, creative or not. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:15, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :::::They're titles. Again, the [[Mushroom King]]'s various appearances have more differences here, yet they are merged. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:33, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :Mushroom King is actually a great example, but for a different reason than I think you're arguing. There can only ever be one king in a kingdom, so it makes sense that all references to the Mushroom King are contained on the same page; the same is not true for a minister. There are almost invariably multiple ministers in a government, e.g. Minister of Defense, Minister of State, Minister of Education, Minister of Culture, etc. I believe the Toad Minister is specifically referred to as the "Minister of Peach's Castle" or more closely to the original Japanese text "Minister of Toad Town". He's the minister of a specific domain, suggesting there are other ministers of other domains, unlike a king. Chancellors are ''typically'' like kings in that there is generally only one; they are heads of state / government, so there is generally only one. A difference exists in real-world politics between chancellor and minister, and I don't know we wouldn't assume that a difference between ministers and chancellors exist in the Mushroom Kingdom as well. We assume a difference exists between wood and stone in the Mushroom Kingdom, but that's never expressly stated. You're trying to prove a negative. I highly doubt we'll ever get an extensive breakdown of the government structure of the Mushroom Kingdom, so to assume that minister and chancellor are the same is speculation that I believe is best resolved by treating the characters as unique rather than evolved forms of one another or saying that one page is sufficient to cover the "office" because the offices, from my perspective, are not the same. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 15:12, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::In terms of real world equivalents, I view Toad Minister as more like the caretaker of Peach's Castle (like a mayor of a city) and Chancellor more like the head of government (like the president of a country). President and mayor are different offices, just as minister and chancellor are different offices. Again, this is not confirmed by anything in the games, but I think it is clear based on the fact that they are given different titles in both Japanese and English. If they were intended to occupy the same office, they would be referred to by the same office in the original Japanese as well as translations. Even if they are meant to hold the same office, we've seen multiple instances of different characters holding the same "office" but still being treated as unique individuals. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 15:25, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :::"If they were intended to occupy the same office, they would be referred to by the same office in the original Japanese as well as translations." What. First of, they ARE referred to by the same office in the original Japanese version, that being ''daijin''. The fact that SMRPG '''usually''' specifies that he's the "'''Mushroom''' minister" doesn't change that. And don't you think the different names in English are better explained by the fact that the two games were translated by different people? It's not particularly helpful to be theorizing about the lore implications of a glorified translation difference... [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:41, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::By the way, regarding that difference between chancellor and minister, I give you the "'''Chancellor''' of the Exchequer", who, according to Wikipedia, "is a senior '''minister''' of the Crown within His Majesty's Government" in the United Kingdom. There is also the "Lord '''Chancellor'''", who "is the highest-ranking traditional '''minister''' among the Great Officers of State in Scotland and England in the United Kingdom". Not exactly wood and stone. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 11:10, June 30, 2024 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| @Blinker: It doesn't mean they aren't the same character, but it also doesn't mean that they are. If there's nothing actually telling us that they are the same, this remains speculation. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:00, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| This [[MIPS]]hole again, huh? This brought a lot of new arguments to the table; I won't lie; I think this proposal brought a lot of new points and I do appreciate that this addresses most arguments. My two cents at the time was that we are exploring the concept of a generic Toad chancellor character that happened to nearly identical names in Japan and have the same colors for their caps. I think one of the biggest things I have is that while Nintendo has never stated outright they are the same character, they ''have not stated the opposite either,'' leaving it up in the air. There's the also the concept of [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|Canonicity]] and that can leave its own can of worms in regard of whether or not these instances of Toad chancellor are the same character. Part of me feels that another possibly is to put a [[Template:Part conjecture|part conjecture]] as we can definitely say, they could be the same, but they not be, so don't this an official confirmation. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:General disclaimer|Wikis aren't really meant to be reliable information after all.]] This concerns the instances of [[Krash|Kremlings riding minecarts.]] The big thing here is that it is obvious they take inspiration from each other to the point common knowledge suggests they are the same thing. Yes, common knowledge should not be a total qualifier, but it is the reason why this issue is as difficult. I do feel this proposal does attack a strawman to certain degree because, we're not considering merging Pauline with Peach. That's just silly and it's so obvious they are not the same character and no none is suggesting that nor is that it even remotely comparable to two green chancellors who have nearly similar names, with minister being a homage. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 14:53, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :To be clear, I'm absolutely not suggesting Pauline and Peach should be merged; that's just an example I provided against the "prototype" argument that prevailed in previous proposals. I appreciate you saying this proposal brings up new points that makes another review plausible. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 15:12, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :"Wikis aren't really meant to be reliable information after all" ...What? Even if we can't guarantee that the wiki is 100% accurate and correct at all times because of its editable nature, that doesn't mean we don't try to be as accurate as possible. Anyway, we should default to splitting rather than merging if we don't know whether two things are the same, since merging would imply that they are the same. See examples linked in my vote. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:57, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::Seconding what Hewer said about accuracy. I overlooked that in my response. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 20:32, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :::I know this is irrelevant to the points being made, but the use of the word "outrageously" here feels subjective and redundant. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 16:24, July 1, 2024 (EDT)
| |
