Editing Talk:Chain Chomp (unchained)

== French Name? ==
What exactly is the reason of the French name being there? We'd have a lot to do to add the names of all species in all languages the games where released in. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 09:56, 15 January 2008 (EST)
:After browsing throught the Transformers wiki, I thought it would be interresing to add the international names of all character/place/species, especially if they are not litteral translation of the english/japanese name. I thinks this kind of information is, you know, ''encyclopedic''. --[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 15:36, 15 January 2008 (EST)


Why can't it be. French is a common languege. It shouldnt be in the placement though. [[User:Alphaclaw11|Alphaclaw11]] 09:57, 15 January 2008 (EST)

If anything, Japanese. -- '''[[User: Pseudo-dino|Pseudo]][[User talk:Pseudo-dino|-dino]]
:This discussion is over a year old. Now we're as far as having a {{tem|foreign names}} template which makes it very easy to list the foreign names in all langauges the games get translated to. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 09:08, 23 January 2009 (EST)
==Animation==

Do we really need that animation ''and'' the image to the right? They're identical, only one of them is moving. {{User:Bloc Partier/sig}}

:I find animations really annoying. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}
::I do too. I just replaced it cuz it was bad before. Anyhow, which should we trash? {{User:Bloc Partier/sig}}

:::Animation.  I feel it just makes the article look silly. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}

::::Alrighty then. Edit upcoming. {{User:Bloc Partier/sig}}

== Incoming Chomp in Galaxy? ==
How are we so sure that those Chomps in SMG and SMG2 are Incoming Chomps? I mean, the Incoming Chomps in YI and YIDS attack, by, coming in the scene, and make a large gap. The Chomps in SMG and SMG2 attack by... rolling. In SMG2, there are even smaller Chomps, that roll in a circle. To make it even more unlikely that the Chomp in SMG is an Incoming Chomp, the article name's conjectural for a part. And on the (no longer existing) American and (still existing) European site of SMA3:YI, Incoming Chomps are named Incoming Chomps. So, I think those Chomps in SMG and SMG2 are no incoming Chomps. Should we split it? {{User:Arend/Sig}}

Then where should we merge the galaxy one? I don't think we merge it to chain chomp cuz they don't have any chain. I say we keep it like this, since they both have no chains.{{User:Mr bones/sig}}
:Is that the only thing? There are enough Chain-less Chomps on the Chain Chomp article. [[Chain_Chomp#Yoshi.27s_Story|Here's an example]]. If the Chomp still needs an article, we'd name it "Chomp (Super Mario Galaxy)". Agree? {{User:Arend/Sig}}
::The Yoshi's Story Chomps were immobile, so of course they had no chains. Per Mr bones. {{User:BluePikminKong497/sig}} 16:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
:::I wonder why that is not mentioned there. And like I said before, we could put the SMG Chomp info into a new article and name it "Chomp (Super Mario Galaxy)". {{User:Arend/Sig}}

:::: Well, I'm not sure about a new article... I mean, alot of links that meant the Smg chomp is linked to <nowiki>[[Incoming Chomp]]</nowiki> so, that would be confusing... unless theres a rederict or did you mean? 

{{User:Booderdash/sig}}19:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::Then we should change that when the article is created, when it's settled. {{User:Arend/Sig}}

== Move the page to "Chomp" ==

I think we should rename this page to "Chomp", because it's this article that is the most popular. Furthermore, there is currently no page named "Chomp". {{User:Banon/sig}} 15:06, 30 December 2012 (EST)
:I agree with this change. I don't think we even need a proposal for this {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}
::Ok ! I was doing it, but I realized that the [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Chomp&redirect=no Chomp] page exists, and it's just a redirect to [[Chomp (disambiguation)]]. I don't know how move a page to a page that currently exists, so I will let somebody else do it. {{User:Banon/sig}} 15:32, 30 December 2012 (EST)
:::Go to the redirect page and copy pasta the coding for the article into the redirect page. It's simple. I'll do it if you still can't figure out. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}

== Incoming Chomp ==
"Incoming Chomp" redirects to "Chomp". Can anyone tell me if this name official ? {{User:Banon/sig}} 16:18, 1 January 2013 (EST)

:It is a redirect left after the page was moved. See [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Chomp&diff=prev&oldid=53797 this]: I can't confirm the name though.

:{{User:YoshiKong/sig}} 23:37, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

== Chomp & Chain Chomp ==

From what I can tell, these names were used interchangeably for the same creature. Apparently the use of the term comes from ''Yoshi's "[[Spike|Gabon]]" Story'', but ''Super Mario RPG'' preceeded it by also calling the usual chained variety Chomps. It just seems like this would be similar to splitting quadrapedal and bipedal Koopas, or "plumber with a hat" and "plumber without a hat". (On a side note, wouldn't ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' be the first appearance of unchained Chomps if the player allows them to yank their chain too long? Sure it's not called a Chomp there, but neither is [[Statue Mario]].) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:09, 10 October 2014 (EDT)
:There's a solid history of large, already-unchained Chain Chomps appearing in games and filling a gameplay niche different from chain-chomps, much moreso than there is of bipedal vs quadrapedal koopas, though.

:I wouldn't take SMRPG usage of the name as indicative of anything since the English translation was handled on the Square side and features the occassional inconsistencies (I'm loathe to say "errors"...) vs. the rest of the series. Though then again, "Gabon" is also the result of a translation error so... whatever. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:41, 10 October 2014 (EDT)

::And moreso than the one-off weird Spike redesign that accompanied the "Gabon" name. Yeah, "Chomp" is sometimes used as an umbrella term since it's the common denominator of most of the various Chain Chomp species and related subjects, but that's more like how "Koopa" refers to all the Koopa derivatives, rather than one name being used for the two kinds of Koopa Troopas - with the 2-vs-4-legs thing being mainly stylistic (i.e. it's dome in modern sidescrolelrs to pay homages to the original ''SMB1/3'' sprites before four legs were brought into vogue by ''SMW'', iirc), whereas unchained Chomps act differently to Chained Chomps, so it's not just a superficial change in this case. It seems worth having a page for them, and we might as well get rid of the "unchained chain" redundancy and just call them "Chomps", as per one of the names we've been given for them. The articleabout and disambig page link at the top can take care of folks who were looking for Chain Chomps when they searched for "Chomp". - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 15:29, 10 October 2014 (EDT)

:::I guess you can see the chain as sort of like the difference between a winged Koopa Paratoopa and a wingless Koopa Troopa, but as for behavioral or even aesthetic differences, that's not always something that's been entirely consistent (such the same enemies that normally act and sometimes look differently in the transition to 3D). Another thing is that, looking through the page history, this article was originally just about Incoming Chomps from ''Yoshi's Island'', then it included the rolling Chomps from the ''Galaxy'' games, which brought about the name change - if this is going to be about unchained Chomps in general, why not also merge the Shark Chomp and Stompin' Chomp info in it as well? After all, they look pretty much identical to the original Chomps, so there's not much to say they belong in another sub-species group besides the way they interact with the player. The way I see it, they're a lot like Chargin' Chuck in that they actually have a bunch of little combat variations, except in that case they all apparently lack their own names they don't get their own articles. (For that matter - and I may be the minority in this - but I think there are a bit too many sub-species articles... for example, ''Super Mario World'' in-game and manual just call the Boo enemies "Boo Buddies" and "The Big Boo", but since the strategy guide also listed the different programmed types of Boo Buddies in their enemy index [[Boo Buddy Block|they]] [[Boo Buddy Snake|get]] [[Boo Buddy Swarm|their]] [[Circling Boo Buddies|own]] [[Disappearing Boo Buddies|articles]] despite "Boo Buddies" itself being outdated. These articles are often somewhat small and the subject in question don't often have significant differences from their original counterparts, and seem to only be named because the respective strategy guide writer wanted to list any differing appearances of the same enemy, so maybe they should taken with the same approach as the "Bubble" enemies of ''Super Mario World'' which were named in the ''Mario Mania'' guide but not on this wiki.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:55, 10 October 2014 (EDT)
::::Regarding things like there being lots of Boo species articles, the philosophy around here is that more articles is better: what's more welcoming to someone who wants to read about all the Boos in ''SMW'', a bunch of "Boo Buddies" pages or all the information crammed ino the one Boo article. There's nothing more frustrating than when the so-called exhaustive wiki on any given series eschews articles for lists and umbrella pages: it can't be helped for minor things like badges, but enemies are a central part of the MWiki. Plus, more articles translates to better changes of getting Google hits: right now, searching "Boo Buddies" brings up the [[Circling Boo Buddies]] first, and if we didn't have that page, we might lose searchers to the Wikia's "Boo Buddy" article three hits down. It's better to be exhaustive when it comes to officially named enemies and whatnot, and having lots of little pages to do that lets us be thorough without winding up with our generalized enemies pages getting excessively bloated by all the derivative enemy information, which can be off-putting to readers and can even cause issues for lower strength devices. Small articles are ''not'' a bad thing: as long as they're complete, the more the merrier. Separating all the unchained Chomp info from the Chain Chomp page seems logical and practical; there's very little benefit that we can gain from scrapping this perfectly good article. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 21:50, 10 October 2014 (EDT)
:::::You bring up fair points about lower-strength devices and the other wiki, so I can completely respect that. In that case, though, the Incoming Chomp should probably have its own page rather than redirect here. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:18, 10 October 2014 (EDT)
::::::A separate Incoming Chomp page sounds legit. It ''does'' have a specific name and unique behaviour even among the unchained Chomps. As far as I know, they only appear in ''SMW2:YI'' and ''YIDS'' - the ''Yoshi's Story'' Chomps are the regular kind. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 11:13, 16 October 2014 (EDT)

==Split Chomp and Incoming Chomp==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|green|split 7-0}}
Chomps are, as far as I can tell, specifically the ''Yoshi's Story''/''Super Mario Galaxy'' rolling Chain Chomp heads, while Incoming Chomps are the ''Yoshi'' series ones that jump out from the background to destroy part of the level. Two different names, two distinct behavioral patterns, and no evidence they're the same other than "they're chainless Chain Chomps" (which is way too broad and unspecific anyway).

'''Proposer''': {{User|Binarystep}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 11, 2015, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Different name, different actions. Tell em to make like a banana and split.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per what I said in the above section: "''A separate Incoming Chomp page sounds legit. It does have a specific name and unique behaviour even among the unchained Chomps.''" In fact, in light of the above section and the lack of disagreement over the splitting suggestion first voiced in October, I'd argue that a TPP is unnecessary.
#{{User|Stonehill}} Per all.
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Burningdragon25}} It looks different to me so, I'll go with a split!
#{{User|ShyGuy8}} Per proposal.

====Oppose====

====Comments====
Are we sure that the ''Yoshi's Story'' / ''Super Mario Galaxy'' chainless Chomps are plain Chomps and don't have some other descriptor like Incoming? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:22, 27 April 2015 (EDT)
:The ''Yoshi's Story'' ones are actually called Chomps on the website, but I have no idea about the ''Galaxy'' ones. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 13:30, 27 April 2015 (EDT)
::The Super Mario Galaxy 2 Prima guide calls them simply "Chomps". {{User:Time Turner/sig}}

== Unchained Chomp ==

Should that name really be on here? It seems to apply more for Chain Chomps that have broken free yet still trail their Chains behind them (like in SMB3, Sunshine, SM64DS, and the NSMB games), as that's how it additionally works in SMM, while this article covers Chomps that lack a Chain entirely. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:59, 26 May 2018 (EDT)

:It bothers me too. {{User:VOIDTHIS/sig}} 20:25, 20 June 2018 (CEST)
::Chomp isn't an entirely perfect name either, since it also at least applies to the Chain Chomps in ''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'' and ''Paper Mario'', though I agree that the ''Super Mario Maker'' (''for Nintendo 3DS''?) quote refers to the escaping Chain Chomps due to it still being Chain Chomp verbally. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 00:20, 6 December 2018 (EST)

== Merge to Chain Chomp? ==
Should we merge this to Chain Chomp? They have the same Japanese name, and as far as i can tell, they might be intended to be the same thing. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:47, 22 February 2019 (EST)
:We have official English names. And there's no chain involved, hence the name. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:49, 22 February 2019 (EST)
::Nope, we go on creator's intent. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:58, 5 March 2019 (EST)
:::It's "clearly" a separate entity just because of the English name? They don't have a Japanese distinction, and we rely on creator's intent. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:05, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
::::That says, i wonder if i should make a proposal, or wait for a consensus... I'm not too sure. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:26, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
::::As I mentioned on [[Talk:Flutter]], I'm pretty sure some of these reused names are just generic uses similar to [[Goomba (balloon)]]. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 04:56, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I don't think so. Let's see what Doc von Schmeltwick thinks about it. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:01, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
::::::There's some discretion to be had here. The thing is, most Chomps we have are specific variants, while in Galaxy, many things get new behaviors. Moreover, normal Chain Chomps appear alongside rolling ''Galaxy'' Chomps in Mario Kart games starting from ''Mario Kart Wii'', but multiple P. Plant types appear alongside each other as well. This needs some thought put into it to be sure. Unlike Flutter, there's potential for a merge here, it just needs to be done tactfully if it's going to be done at all. And it's not imperative by any means. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:08, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::Any other Japanese guides group them together? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:23, March 24, 2019 (EDT)

I don't believe this should be merged regardless. It seems like you didn't put in enough research on this topic, and I'm therefore going to oppose it in all capacity until there's compelling evidence that the two are the same. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 10:00, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

I moved some things I found to the chain chomp page but maybe this should just turn into a redirect? [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 10:01, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

Hold up!!! People need to decide this like Fan Of Yoshi in a group decision you can’t change stuff unless your like a breucat or something please let us figuer this out ToadettetheAchiever please! [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 10:04, April 5, 2019 (EDT)
:I totally think that creator's intent is '''not''' the only way to go when talking about this. Even if by some means you could argue that they ''were'' the same, you have to take into account their different behavior in the ''Mario Kart'' games (yes, it [[Mario Circuit (Wii)|really]] [[Rainbow Road (3DS)|is]] different) before you bring up a discussion like this. If you want to make a proposal, then go ahead, but don't expect me to support it at all. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 10:09, April 5, 2019 (EDT)
::What is "creator's intent", and what does that have to do with how we handle things? I asked this on Flutter's talk page, and didn't get a response. FanOfYoshi, what's the source for this? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 10:51, April 5, 2019 (EDT)
:::"Creator's intent" is an argument I picked up from many talk pages before, and have used on more than a few occasions since. I think it may have started around the time Flopsy Fish and/or Bub got merged to Cheep Cheep. At the same time though, Flopsy Fish are obviously the same entity as Cheep Cheeps, and Bub was made definitely Cheep Cheep in English with Mario Party 2 and 3. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:46, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

::::::All I know is that I moved some stuff over to the [[Chain Chomp]] Page. So I don’t know what to do... :( [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 16:39, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

Should I keep the poll up? [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:36, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

Uh I don’t know at this point. [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:04, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
::This needs to be settled![[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:16, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::Please fix your indentation. A two-colon sentence doesn't require eight colons. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 18:17, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::Thats not the point should we merge to chain chomps and turn this into a redirect?[[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:19, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::Wait for the discussion to continue: that is the point of it. Please do not rush a discussion: it will result in a rushed decision. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 18:20, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::I asked if another admin could say something, but I'm voting no. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:21, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I don’t think anyone wants it should I take it off or what?[[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:22, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Patience. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:23, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I'm voting no as well, due to the contrasting behavior in the ''Mario Kart'' series that I already mentioned above. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 18:26, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::I think that it is like saying a Cat that has hair (breed with hair) loses it’s hair (or chain in this case) it becomes a (Non hair cat) see my point?[[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:29, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::{{wp|Hairless dog|About}} {{wp|Sphynx cat|that}}{{wp|Naked mole-rat|.}}{{wp|Hairless bat|..}}{{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 18:32, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::I'm for ''some'' kind of rewrite - "Chomp" has referred to Chain Chomps, and I'm fairly certain I've seen "Chain Chomp" in reference to Chomp. Whether that looks like a merge or further splits, I'm not sure. The behavior for a chainless Chomp isn't very consistent to begin with. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:42, April 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::For what is worth if you're looking for an example, the Premier Edition of the ''Mario Kart Wii'' Prima guide uses ''Chain Chomp'' on page 167, that is about ''Chain Chomp Wheel'' (''When the Chain Chomp arrives, be very careful when you're navigating around him, as he can slow you and flatten you.'' and ''It's better to flee than to slow down and engage in combat with the Chain Chomp ready to roll!''), the Prima guide of ''Mario Kart 7'' uses ''Chomps'' in the part about ''Rainbow Road'' (section ''ROAD HAZARDS'': ''Chomps: Keep your distance from these massive Chomps! You’ll find a few of them near the end of section 2.''), while the Prima guide of ''Mario Kart 8'' explicitly mentions ''unchained Chain Chomps'' in the part about ''N64 Rainbow Road'' (section ''Roadside Unassistance'': ''Chain Chomps: The enormous, unchained Chain Chomps bounce on sections of Rainbow Road, sending ripples throughout the track. You can Jump Boost off the crests of these ripples. Just be careful that you don’t send yourself flying off the track, or directly into one of the Chain Chomps!'').--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:55, April 8, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::Well, ''Mario Kart Tour'' uses ''Chain Chomp'' as displayed in-game name, we already saw this in the ''Mario Kart 8'' Prima guide (which even went as far as using the ''unchained Chain Chomps'' term to remove possible ambiguities) and of course it’s consistent with the Japanese name. In the internal data of ''Mario Kart Tour'', Chain Chomps are known as <tt>Wanwan</tt>, while the Chomps are known as <tt>WanwanRolling</tt>, both are named 「ワンワン」 in the actual displayed Japanese text. We now have to decide whether we should split those Chain Chomps, rename the page or make more substantial changes.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:55, December 29, 2019 (EST)
:::::::::::::I want to add that <tt>WanwanRolling</tt> is consistent with the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' / ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' internal filename, and there was no base <tt>Wanwan</tt> in those games. In ''Mario Kart Wii'', Chain Chomp Wheel's rolling Chomp is <tt>1 Data/Race/Course/casino_battle.szs/Twanwan.brres</tt>, Mario Circuit's Chain Chomp is <tt>1 Data/Race/Course/castle_course.szs/wanwan.brres</tt>, <small>GCN</small> Mario Circuit's Chain Chomp is <tt>1 Data/Race/Course/old_mario_gc.szs/wanwan.brres</tt>, and <small>DS</small> Peach Garden's Chain Chomp is <tt>1 Data/Race/Course/old_garden_ds.szs/wanwan.brres</tt>. In ''Mario Kart 7'', Rainbow Road's Chomp is <tt>0000.00000000/romfs/Course/Gctr_RainbowRoad.szs/wanwan/wanwan.bcmdl</tt>, and there is no traditional Chain Chomp in that game. So it seems that Chomps are internally distinguished from Chain Chomps in games where they appear together, and occasionally in games where traditional Chain Chomps are absent. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:45, December 29, 2019 (EST)
::::::::::::::It's interesting to see another internal name that was changed when migrating the course from ''Mario Kart 7'' to ''Mario Kart Tour'', effectively <tt>WanwanRolling</tt> makes sense as they were likely referencing the Chomps of ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''. By the way, I had forgotten to add the internal names used in ''Mario Kart 8'' (and to specify that I was referring to ''Mario Kart Tour'', which is something I added later to my comment): <tt>CrWanwanB</tt> for the ones of <small>N64</small> Rainbow Road, <tt>DL_Wanwan</tt> for the ones of <small>GBA</small> Cheese Land. In any case, this possible reference to the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games even more prompts us to consider renaming the page as a whole, if we prefer avoid merging.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:32, December 29, 2019 (EST)

Since no further comments were made and since ''Mario Kart Tour'' now effectively gives the Chomps an in-game name, consistent with the ''Mario Kart 8'' Prima guide, if no other suggestions are made, the page will soon be moved to ''Chain Chomp (unchained)'', this being consistent with the in-game name of ''Mario Kart Tour'' while using an identifier that was effectively used in the ''Mario Kart 8'' Prima guide (and that identifies the subject well, in my opinion). This is just a renaming and not a merging, as the discussion so far didn't lead toward that direction.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:07, January 5, 2020 (EST)
:In that case, they really probably should be merged outright XD [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:43, January 5, 2020 (EST)
::I should have made most of the needed changes. Of course, if at this point for most people it makes more sense to just merge them with Chain Chomps, this discussion should be revived.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:45, February 15, 2020 (EST)
:::I'm open to revitalizing this discussion, as in many respects, there's little more different here than piped and non-piped Piranha Plants (especially in the ''Mario Kart'' games where those appear alongside each other as more Retro Tracks are added) and the jumping/swimming Cheep Cheeps. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:32, February 28, 2020 (EST)
::::Perhaps, but right now, I myself am leaning towards these Chain Chomps instead being in the same boat as [[Talk:Flutter#Merging with Wiggler...?|Flutter]]: something that was established as having an identical Japanese name in a game that didn't feature the traditional variety alongside it, give or take identifiers, but has other evidence suggesting that they are technically separate entities (i.e. physical difference and certain filenames). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:55, March 7, 2020 (EST)
:::::Thing is, the filename in question was "rolling," which doesn't even apply for at least 4 things on here. It only applies for the ''Galaxy''-inspired ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:31, March 7, 2020 (EST)
::::::There's also the <tt>Twanwan</tt> filename, and while I'm not sure what "T" might stand for, it doesn't appear to have any obvious reason to be named the way it is since the files are in dedicated archives per course in ''Mario Kart Wii''. Contrast to many other games where files of the same category are instead organized by folders. That's why in, say, ''Yoshi's New Island'', red/Coin Bandit has a separate filename, but in ''Mario Kart Wii'', the same filename may refer to different models/behaviors like chained or wandering Chain Chomps (and there is also a <tt>1 Data/Race/Course/Object</tt> folder for recurring elements like Goomba, Piranha Plant, and Monty Mole, so it would have been pretty simple to throw Chain Chomp in it if the data was completely identical since it appears as an obstacle in more than one track). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:02, March 14, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::I'm thinking it might have to do with what animations it's capable of. The different Piranha types still open their mouths, rolling Chomp doesn't. Maybe ''tamashi'' for "boulder?" I know they normally just use ''iwa'', but it's still a possibility....or ''tama'' for "ball." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:11, March 14, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::My question at this point is a different one: is ''Chomp'' really a dedicated name for the unchained Chain Chomps? In ''Super Mario RPG'', ''Paper Mario'' and even in the case of [[Red Chomp]]s, ''Chomp'' is used as a shortened name for normal Chain Chomps, similarly in both the Prima guides of ''Mario Kart Wii'' and ''Mario Kart 8'' there is no dedicated name for unchained Chain Chomps and the same can be said for the displayed name of ''Mario Kart Tour''. Is there the possibility that we misattributed what was just a shorthand for ''Chain Chomp''?—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:44, March 15, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::For SMW2's guide and ''most'' of the N64 era it seemed deliberate (ie using "Chomp" for MK64 and YS after using "Chain Chomp" in SM64), with PM fudging that up. Galaxy ''may'' have been deliberate, but MKW having "Chain Chomp Wheel" also throws that for a loop. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:21, March 15, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::Yes, that seems to be the case most of the time. I did, however, spot ''one'' instance where both are used in this context: despite being referred to as "Chain-Chomp" within ''The Thousand-Year Door'', the Nintendo Power guide, which otherwise refers to the chained enemy as "Chain Chomp", refers to the two chainless variant statues over the pipes in the Palace of Shadow as "Chomp statues" on page 89. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:45, March 16, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::That’s interesting, what about the “chained” Chain Chomp in ''Yoshi’s Island'', what name it is given in the North American guides?—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 13:39, March 16, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::It's called Chain Chomp. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:00, March 16, 2020 (EDT)

Good to know, thanks to both. It looks like only recently they decided to no longer distinguish between the chained and unchained ones name-wise, reflecting the Japanese naming.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:28, March 16, 2020 (EDT)
:It occurs to me now that in the SMW2 guide, "Chomp" was not distinct from Chain Chomp, but rather intended as a nebulous group that ''contained'' Chain Chomp, Incoming Chomp, and Shark Chomp/Chomp Shark (as well as Fire Chomp, most likely). This means our current setup of "debuted in SMW2 through variations" is outright ''wrong'', since they didn't intend it as a distinct entity then, but a group that contained a previous entity (with this approach to the name "Chomp" being phased out quickly). Another important note is how in ''Mario Kart DS''{{'}}s iteration of Peach Gardens, the Chain Chomps present similarly lack chains, with them being added in later versions. Rather, they trail item boxes behind them attached to nothing, while in Time Attack they are absolutely bare, thus looking and acting similar to ''Super Princess Peach''{{'}}s "Big Chain Chomps." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:50, March 18, 2020 (EDT)
::This inconsistency in the use of both Chomp and Chain Chomp is rather problematic, although understandable considering the Japanese name. Of course, since in Japanese the name is the same, we can see cases of Chain Chomps that are borderline like that of Peach Gardens, but in cases like that of Flutter we had at least a consistent English name for the imago, which we don't really have here. At this point the choices would be to keep the current status of the page, consider removing all the instances in which we are not dealing with the rolling chainless Chain Chomp (to rather rely on the internal names that effectively see a relatively consistent use of ''WanwanRolling'' in at least three games) or consider merging the whole page into the Chain Chomp page. I'm not sure on how we should move, since the contradictory evidence doesn't allow very good points to be made, with the internal names being the most reliable point to keep the pages split at the moment.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:49, March 24, 2020 (EDT)
:::I've come to that very conclusion myself. I feel either of the two latter actions are viable, but honestly would prefer a full merge, as it really does seem similar to a piped/planted/walking Piranha Plant situation in my opinion. Another thought that occurred to me is perhaps the usage of "Chomp" in the latter part of the N64 era (including ''Paper Mario'') was actually an attempt to ''rename'' Chain Chomp in a way that didn't rely on the chain that ultimately didn't pan out. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:11, March 24, 2020 (EDT)
:::Additionally, ''Mario Party 3'' has [[Big Chomp and Little Chomp]], though the manual refers to the duel mode partner as Chain Chomp....[https://youtu.be/LgaVWOlWoQo?t=138 and it lacks a chain]. Also Chain Chomp is used for the description of [[Merry-Go-Chomp]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:46, March 27, 2020 (EDT)
::::As pointed out in the page disambiguation, there’s also the ''Super Mario 64'' Chain-Chomp that [https://web.archive.org/web/19980610064223/http://www.nintendo.com:80/n64/super_mario64/1-6.html is referred to as ''Big Chomp'' by NOA]... I more and more suspect that ultimately ''Chomp'' is just a shorthand for ''Chain Chomp'', used when there is not a lot of space (e.g. Red Chomp, Super Mario Galaxy’s mission names) or when the text would become more fluent by using the shorthand.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:14, March 27, 2020 (EDT)
:::::In that case, a merge proposal would probably be for the best....though regarding the "rolling type," that brings up the question of whether the MK8 ones should count, since they spin through the air as though they were rolling and similarly never open their mouths (which, for that matter, makes "Chomp" no more accurate than "Chain" for them....) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:36, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
::::::Chain Chomp and Chomp are used interchangeably in the ''Super Mario Advance 4'' Prima guide, which makes me wonder if my earlier observation in the ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' Nintendo Power guide is incidental. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:12, April 3, 2020 (EDT)

==Merge with Chain Chomp==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|vetoed|The proposer has decided to let the above conversation play out first.}}
[I am makeing this to settle the talk]

'''Proposer''': {{User|HEROMARIO}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2019, 23:59GMT<br>
'''Cancellation''': April 5, 2019, 22:52 GMT
===Support===
#{{User|HEROMARIO}} [I think that they are one and the same]

===Oppose===
#{{User|Alex95}} - Aside from being the same species, the two are named and act differently in every way possible. Merging them is only going to make things more confusing.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per Alex95.

===Comments===
I think it is inportant [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:22, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

You ''really'' should have let the conversation above get somewhere before proposing this. You don't even have an argument in the header. I suggest you cancel. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:26, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

Alex95 Why not put a seperate place for them? [[User:HEROMARIO|&#91;-&#93;€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 18:29, April 5, 2019 (EDT)
:...They are already separated? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:30, April 5, 2019 (EDT)

== Super Mario Kart ==

Should the Chomp-like enemies from Super Mario Kart deserve their own page? Because it feels like the first appearance of Chomps is Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.
--[[Special:Contributions/24.188.22.145|24.188.22.145]] 19:03, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
:They act like Chomps, but your edits reminded me to ask TSR about the files they got the sprites from. Maybe I'll have some confirmation later. Regardless, the answer is no. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:07, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
::We have no confirmation for them being Chomps, so, i'd say, it stays with a part conjecture template for now. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:28, July 10, 2019 (EDT)
:::Bumping this. Appearance-wise and with the ability to float, they are actually much closer to [[Flame Chomp|Fire Chomp]]s, though their sprite also reminds me of the head-on Bullet Bills in ''Yoshi's Safari''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:31, February 28, 2020 (EST)
::::Looks like I was right on the nose with the Bullet Bill thing, since that's what the JP guide calls them. ;) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:21, March 14, 2020 (EDT)

== Mario RPG ==

Chomps appeared in Boosters Tower. I would add that myself, but I wouldn't know where to put it. [[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 06:50, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
:You must be thinking of the Chain Chomp enemies, which are referred to under a shortened name in the game and are not actually chainless Chomps. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:39, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
::I found them under Chain Chomp, should we add a disclaimer about "if you're looking for the enemies called chomps..." and redirect? [[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 16:54, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
:::The introductory paragraph of the Chain Chomp article also mentions that they're also known as Chomps, however. This was also the case in ''Paper Mario''. We could add it in addition to the top link to the disambiguation page, though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, October 15, 2019 (EDT)

== Merge to [[Chain Chomp]] ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|10-3-2-0|merge entire article}}
OK, I'm going to go into this article's history a bit. A loooooong time ago, someone on here decided that the SMG "Chomps" were the same as [[Incoming Chomp]] (spoiler: they aren't). Incoming Chomp was later moved to Chomp and then Incoming Chomp was split off, leaving a disorganized mess of abitrarily chosen examples of chainless Chain Chomps (notably lacking ''Mario Party 3'' and ''Mario Kart DS'' info, since those were explicitly called "Chain Chomps"). A problem with this, other than the parenthesized one there, is that "Chomp" itself isn't necessarily referring to chainless Chain Chomps specifically; it was an alternative term for Chain Chomps as a whole, and really has been since the beginning, first appearing as a standalone term in that context in the SMW2 guide. Additionally, a SM64 guide called the Chain-Chomp "Big Chomp," Chain Chomps were called "Chomps" in-game for SMRPG and PM64, and ''Mario Party 3'' uses "Chain Chomp" to describe them with ''and'' without chains, yet has [[Big Chomp and Little Chomp]] (both with chains). All of these games aside from SMRPG were released in the N64 era fairly close to each other, showing that it was not a consistent state of chain. On another note, some chainless ones in MKDS were replaced by identically acting chained-but-loose ones in MKW. The rolling ones for a bit may have been a bit deliberate, though "Golden Chomp" and "Silver Chomp" can just as easily be seen as being in the same boat as "Red Chomp" from TTYD. Either way, those too are explicitly called "Chain Chomps" in MKT, leaving our most recent name the same as the "full" Chain Chomp name (and again, "normal" Chain Chomps use the name "Chomp" as well).

I'm pretty sure the "distinction" here was artificial, made up by fan sites like this one, and I feel it's time to set the record straight. The "difference" here is really no more great than piped vs planted vs walking Piranha Plants, and if anyone wants to say that "Chain Chomp" is an inaccurate title due to saying "chain," I'll remind them that most of the examples here don't exactly "chomp," either. To say nothing of [[Buzzy Beetle|other]] [[Pearl Bird|nonindicatively]] [[Swoopin' Stu|named]] [[Spiked Fun Guy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|enemies]]. And of course, the most recent in-game name is "Chain Chomp" regardless. These have the same Japanese name and English name'''''S''''', but I'll go ahead and include options for keeping the "rolling" ones split, with and without the MK8 info since that's borderline (it rolls in place through the air as it bounces on the track). In the event one of those two win, this page will additionally moved to "Chain Chomp (rolling)" for specificity (as well as that occasionally being part of a filename).

'''Proposer:''' {{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' April 16, 2020, 23:59 (GMT)

===Merge all===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per proposal and prior discussion.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal. Similarly, I wouldn't mind going ahead with further merges of "enemy using thing" or "enemy in a thing" like the 3D World Goombas that were proposed to be split a while back, but still haven't yet.
#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per proposal.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Unlike Wiggler and Flutter, the usage of Chain Chomp and Chomp is way too all over the place to actually be applied meaningfully; as it stands, navigation between the two subjects is convoluted and artificial, and if Nintendo stopped caring to keep track of them long ago (and arguably never did), there's really no reason to maintain it any longer.
#{{User|bwburke94}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} First choice, the ''Chomp'' name isn't really specific for these chainless Chain Chomp and it's difficult to keep these separated from the chained Chain Chomps, as DS Peach Gardens and Princess showed.
#{{User|Duckfan77}} Per all.

===Merge most but leave the rolling type (including MK8) split===
#{{User|Obsessive Mario Fan}} This still doesn't seem right. While sometimes Chain Chomps have been depicted without chains, probably because the developers didn't feel like adding it (Mario Kart DS), the rolling, chainless Chomps have been clearly shown to be different, with chained Chomps appearing elsewhere (Mario Kart Wii and Mario Kart 8). In SMRPG and Paper Mario, "Chomp" is just used as a short form of "Chain Chomp".
#{{user|TheDarkStar}} - per OMF
#{{user|JoeRunner}} Per OMF

===Merge most but leave the rolling type (excluding MK8) split===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Alternative to above; I believe the bouncing ''Mario Kart 8'' version should be excluded since they are replacements for the non-rolling Chomps from ''Mario Kart 64'', albeit with a twist.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Second choice, if we have to rely on a relatively consistent appearance, behavior and name, at least these have pretty much all of them (even though the name is an internal name, since the displayed name still apparently flip flops between ''Chomp'' and  ''Chain Chomp'')

===Oppose===

===Comments===
It does seem a bit messy to stand as-is since most official sources use Chain Chomp and Chomp for either too inconsistently, but one question: what about Chomp Shark and Big Chain Chomp? If the regular Chain Chomp pages are merged outright, then these two no longer have the chained/unchained distinction for their parent species. Let's not forget that the unchained version was once called a "Big Chain Chomp" as well. If chained and unchained Chain Chomps get fully merged, wouldn't it only be fair that the big ones get a follow-up [[Talk:Big Chain Chomp#Do what the above section header indicates and merge to Chomp Shark|proposal]]? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:32, April 2, 2020 (EDT)
:They're no more the same than [[Big Piranha Plant]] and [[Naval Piranha]], or [[Big Koopa Troopa]] and [[Hookbill the Koopa]], or [[Colossal Koopa Paratroopa]] and [[Knot-Wing the Koopa]], IMO. If someone else wants to propose to fully merge those, that's fine, but keep in mind "Biggu Wanwan"/"Chomp Shark" was used in between instances of "Deka Wanwan"/"Big Chain Chomp," indicating some held distinction. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:47, April 2, 2020 (EDT)
::I'm not sure if the ''Biggu'' distinction from everything else "Big" was the original intent so much as something that was decided sometime later, likely over the fact that Naval Piranha (''Biggu Pakkun'') was a unique, memorable boss fight, whereas Piranhacus Giganticus (''Kyodai Pakkun Flower'') / Super/Big Piranha Plant (''Dai''/''Deka Pakkun Flower'') has always been a regular enemy. After all, the Japanese name of Bigger Boo could have very easily been "''Biggu Teresa''" if the case was just that the ''Yoshi's Island'' developers wanted to make it uniform with the rest of the enhanced enemy boss designs, but the fact that it's called ''Bikkuri Teresa'' instead despite ''Biggu Teresa'' not being taken yet tells me that the developers deliberately named it something else to avoid confusion with the normal Big Boo that appears in the same game. I have a hunch that if Kamek ever enlarges a Chain Chomp (''Wanwan'') as a ''Yoshi'' boss, it will probably be named and act as something other than the series-established Chomp Shark (''Biggu Wanwan''), which may indicate that it's less the ''Biggu'' nomenclature making it a different thing and more it being its own boss specifically. That aside, about the "rolling" options: would that also include the one from ''Mario Kart Wii''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Chain Chomp Wheel? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:12, April 3, 2020 (EDT)
:::Of course. Also, it'd be stupid if "Big Teresa" were an enlarged "''Atomic'' Teresa," so that's probably from where that stems. Also, note that some other "big" enemies in YNI had "Mega" instead, yet they kept "Biggu Wanwan," when names for "big" enemies aren't exactly stable regardless. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:30, April 3, 2020 (EDT)
::::The point is that the developers knew not to call it as such since they were well already aware of the big version of the enemy, meaning that ''Biggu'' wasn't (isn't?) strictly a separate dichotomy from standard big enemies. I think there are enough exceptions over the years, some even within the ''Yoshi'' franchise, showing that the line seems drawn at boss status instead of name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:42, April 3, 2020 (EDT)
:::::I'd still err to caution on this, due to PMSS and SMO having the "Deka" type (AFAIK) and YNI having the "Biggu" type in between those. They could have easily used "Deka" for YNI as well, but didn't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:53, April 3, 2020 (EDT)