Editing Talk:Cascading Stone

Official name? {{User:RAP/sig}} [[Special:Contributions/RAP|Does it mean you can throw it? :P]]

Not really.{{User:Knife/sig}} 16:42, 16 December 2007 (EST)

== Merge Cascading Stone, vanishing platform, and moon platform with Falling Platform ==
{{settled TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|failed|3-0-2-5|Do not merge}}
I was going to make a unilateral move, but as this impacts several articles, a proposal would be more appropriate. I would like to consolidate the [[Cascading Stone]], [[moon platform]], and [[vanishing platform]] pages together into one. A [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:Nintendo101/garden&oldid=4461736 preview is available here].

Browsing the [[Falling Platform]] article should convey what this object is, and that it is nearly identical to the recurring [[Cascading Stone]]s from the ''Yoshi'' franchise in both design, mechanics, and form. The only outlier is that the Falling Platforms in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' are made of rusted metal, but I think this is outweighed by all of the mechanical and spatial similarities. Additionally, it does not seem like the platform's identity as a rock is very important or an defining trait, as the Japanese word "rock" has only been incorporated into the subject's name once, in ''Yoshi's Island DS'', and never again. In addition, it seems like both subjects have gone by a series or very similar names throughout history (as apparent in the preview I link to above in my sandbox), which is not dissimilar to to the names of [[Donut Block#Names in other languages|Donut Block]]s, [[Lift#Flatbed Ferry|Flatbed Ferries]], [[Note Block#Names in other languages|Note Block]]s, [[Jet Pipe#Names in other languages|Jet Pipe]]s and many other recurring objects in the ''Mario'' franchise. So I view the similarities in nomenclature to be further indication that these objects are one in the same. This is not the first time a object from ''Yoshi's Island'' has leapt into the mainline games, as is the case with [[Wobble Rock]]s.

Originally, my proposal only sought to merge the Cascading Stones and Falling Platform articles. However, there are a couple of over objects that think can reasonably be viewed as identical: namely the [[vanishing platform]]s and [[moon platform]]s from ''Super Mario Odyssey''. A critical examination of the various kingdoms in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' reveals that most kingdoms support the same object or type of object with different designs to match the intended topography, but this does not make them ontologically different objects. This is apparent with a close comparision between many objects in the game, such as [[Flower (environmental object)#Screenshots|flowers]], [[small animal]]s, [[seesaw]]s (note [[:File:SMO Metro Moon 19.png|Timer Challenge]] vs. [[:File:SMO Mushroom Moon 29.png|sub-area]]), [[Brick Block]]s (note [[:File:Brick Block SMO.jpg|Wooded Kingdom]] vs. [https://www.models-resource.com/nintendo_switch/supermarioodyssey/model/62639/ most other appearances]), and so on. So while these objects do not look like rusted panels, I don't think that matters as much as the fact that they are mechanically identical. Objects during Timer Challenges, so as the mentioned vanishing platforms, tend to have vibrant toy-like appearances, and the moon platforms are nearly identical to the [[:File:SM3DL Final Bowser Part 1 W8.png|giant cube-shaped Falling Platforms from ''Super Mario 3D Land'']]. The "vanishing platforms" and "moon platforms" are not signaled out as unique objects in any literature available to me other than the [[Prima Games]] guidebook, including ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey''.

I offer three options:
#'''Support: Move them all''': Cascading Stones, vanishing platforms, and moon platforms would be moved to the [[Falling Platform]] article, the same way it looks in my preview.
#'''Support: Only move Cascading Stone''': The ''Super Mario Odyssey'' objects would not be touched.
#'''Support: Only move vanishing platform and moon platform to Falling Platform''': Cascading Stone would not be touched.
#'''Opppose: Keep them all split from one another'''

'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>Dec. 28th, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to January 4, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Support: Move them all!===
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Nintendo101.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer.

===Support: Only move Cascading Stone===

===Support: Only move vanishing platform and moon platform===
#{{User|Arend}} I feel we should leave the Cascading Stone out of this. Not only are its Japanese names very different (with only the SM2YI one being ''slightly'' similar to the Japanese name of ''specifically'' the SM3DL one (which also happens to be the ''only'' one of the other falling platforms made of stone)), but ''Yoshi's Island'' also features sections such as [https://youtu.be/mRND0tMP3hc?t=113 this one] where Cascading Stones will drop down automatically and Yoshi has to climb upon the dropped stones without getting crushed. The stones in these sections do not require being stepped on by the player character to fall down, and as far as I know, none of these other falling platforms have a auto-dropping variant like that. Also, as far as I know, none of these other falling platforms stay put when dropping to the ground (in fact, most of them crumble into disappearance, or vanish in a puff of smoke). In addition, Cascading Stones frequently appear in varying rectangular shapes and sizes, whereas each of the other platforms mentioned have a more consistent size and shape. Moreover, the Cascading Stone article also seems to cover a variant in ''Yoshi's Island DS'' called Slide Block, that uh, doesn't actually ''fall down'', as can be seen [https://youtu.be/_o_X5SoNNeI?t=155 here].
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary option, per Arend.

===Oppose: Keep them split===
#{{User|Axii}} Per my reasoning in the comments. If some platforms were to be merged, this is not the right way to do it.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Axii, I think this proposal's reasoning is too reliant on shared functions alone. Different objects can have the same functions, such as the excluded [[Donut Block]].
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary choice, per Axii, on top of my reasoning to leave the Cascading Stones out of this.
#{{User|Salmancer}} I think what's happening is that we should split the large platforms from [[World 8-Bowser: Part 2]] and merge that with Moon platform, if we're doing things based on functionality. Type of crumbling platform exclusive to final scenarios with square proportions that can be triggered by forces aside from Mario. (Bowser's flames in 3D Land, Moon chicanery in Odyssey.) And Cascading Stones don't vanish and respawn, a core part of the concept.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Our main worry is that the Cascading Stone is like, very clearly its own thing, right? It's the falling blocks in ''Yoshi's Island'' that interlock with one another. And they've had these re-occur in other ''Yoshi'' games and, as people have pointed out, even had variations of that do not fall down, but slide side-to-side. The comparisons to Moon platform and especially the Luncheon Kingdom's vanishing platforms feel a little too wishy-washy, considering just how established the Cascading Stone already is. A merge of all these falling platforms also feels strange considering the lack of other falling platforms, such as the aforementioned Donut Block--though, to be honest, we don't think we'd like a unified "Falling platform" article beyond a disambiguation page.
<s>#{{User|Rykitu}} Each are different enough from one another.</s>

===Comments on the Falling Platform proposal===
{{@|Rykitu}} what do you think of the information I laid out in the proposal? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:24, December 14, 2024 (EST)
:{{@|Nintendo101}} Sorry about that! Often times I don't read the full proposal and just read enough info for me to understand the full thing unless there's a TL:DR section at the bottom. I thought you were referring to Donut blocks. And when I think of the Cascading Stones from Yoshi's Island, I think of ones that fall from the sky that aren't triggered by the player, which isn't the case for the Donut blocks. I had no idea a falling platform page even existed until now. So can I delete my vote and support or am I supposed to cross it out? {{User|Rykitu}}
::No worries :) Yes, you are supposed to cross-out your current vote and just write in a new one for the option you like. In case you you do not know how to do that, you put <nowiki><s></nowiki> and <nowiki></s></nowiki> around your current vote. The result looks like this this: <s>#{{User|Rykitu}} Each are different enough from one another.</s>. Hope that helps! - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:57, December 14, 2024 (EST)

The fact that these platforms have a similar functionality should not be a deciding factor. We should always question if these platforms are different objects first and foremost. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:05, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:Yes, I agree. I do not think these are different objects (or at least the ones from ''Super Mario Odyssey''). - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:09, December 18, 2024 (EST)
::Vanishing platform only appears when a scarecrow is active. Moon platform can be activated by falling rocks, not just the Bowser capture. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 11:45, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:::[[Seesaw|Seesaw lift]]s also appear in [[:File:SMO Metro Moon 19.png|Timer Challenges]] and [[:File:SMO Mushroom Moon 29.png|levels]] themselves, and I do not see this as a dissimilar scenario. To me, the Luncheon Kingdom platforms are just Falling Platforms with different proportions, which is already the case in the levels themselves. In the Wooded Kingdom, the platforms are [[:File:Collapsing platform.png|narrow]], whereas the ones in the Metro Kingdom are [[:File:SMO Metro Coins W.png|wide]]. As for the moon platforms, I do not really see the fact that boulders can cause them to fall to be a meaningful enough distinction between them and the other Falling Platforms in the game. iirc, we do not really see any context where other objects collide with Falling Platforms in other parts of the game. And even if we did, I don't think that would outweigh their similarities, especially considering large cubed Falling Platforms also appear in the final stretch of ''Super Mario 3D Land''. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 12:04, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:::: The difference with collapsing platforms is that they're referred to the same way by the Prima guide (as inconsistent as Prima is, its name is shared). For other platforms, I do not believe function alone is enough. Sure, their behavior is pretty much identical, but it's very clear that these platforms are different. Covering them on the same page would just lead to one big pile of random objects that have a similar functionality. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 12:59, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:::::In your personal view, should the platforms from ''Super Mario 3D Land'' and ''Super Mario Odyssey'' not share an article because one is stone and one is metal? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:03, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:::::: From what it seems, they are different objects used in different contexts and different appearance with no links to each other. I would say they should stay separate. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 14:19, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Interesting. When I played ''Odyssey'', I immediately recognized them as the same platforms from ''3D Land'', and this even seems to be attested in their most recurring proportions, how they fall, the speed with which they fall, how they are arranged in levels, their similar Japanese names, and the fact that ''3D Land'' and ''Odyssey'' share much of the same staff. I feel like I have been provided every reason to substantiate the view that they are the same object. Our positions seem analogous to {{wp|lumpers and splitters}}. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)
@Arend: There are moon platforms in the last bit of the escape sequence in Odyssey that fall on their own without being stepped on. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:37, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm fairly certain the moon platforms are a non-respawning set, and therefore functionally distinct from the Wooded Kingdom crumbling platforms. But now I gotta head to the game to verify. Moon platforms respawning wouldn't make sense though, since the platforms are falling to ratchet up the tension. If they just poofed back into existence by waiting, then all the panicked runs up these sequences would be meaningless. Give me a day or so. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 05:03, December 21, 2024 (EST)
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	I'm fairly certain the moon platforms are a non-respawning set, and therefore functionally distinct from the Wooded Kingdom crumbling platforms. But now I gotta head to the game to verify. Moon platforms respawning wouldn't make sense though, since the platforms are falling to ratchet up the tension. If they just poofed back into existence by waiting, then all the panicked runs up these sequences would be meaningless. Give me a day or so. [[User:Salmancer\|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer\|talk]]) 05:03, December 21, 2024 (EST)		I'm fairly certain the moon platforms are a non-respawning set, and therefore functionally distinct from the Wooded Kingdom crumbling platforms. But now I gotta head to the game to verify. Moon platforms respawning wouldn't make sense though, since the platforms are falling to ratchet up the tension. If they just poofed back into existence by waiting, then all the panicked runs up these sequences would be meaningless. Give me a day or so. [[User:Salmancer\|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer\|talk]]) 05:03, December 21, 2024 (EST)
	:Yeah, Moon platforms do not respawn. Which personally creates a very different feeling than the compatriots of falling platforms and donut blocks. It makes the situation more desperate and tense, since you can never retrace steps inside the moon where as you eventually can on the falling platforms. (Yes, a skilled player will never run out of leg room, but like, the design intention should still stand). [[User:Salmancer\|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer\|talk]]) 00:55, December 23, 2024 (EST)