Editing Talk:Car (obstacle)

==Merge Car (obstacle), Truck, and Bus to "Vehicle (obstacle)" or "Traffic"==
{{TPP}}
This page, [[truck]], and [[bus]] are all about a similar generic type of obstacle that is almost always encountered together, in "street" themed stages, and function exactly the same other than the dimensions of their hitboxes. It would be more efficient to cover them all in one page and list the types that appear under each game all at once than split it into three (particularly since the "truck" page covers both tractor-trailer semi trucks and small pickup trucks already); most of the game pages only list them as "vehicles" anyway. Note that this proposal does not cover the [[Wiggler Wagon]], [[Bob-omb Car]], or the [[Mii]] drivers from Coconut Mall, as the former two have a specialized ''Mario''-themed design and function while the latter is generally treated as a separate type of obstacle. I want to have the identifier there since while we don't specifically have a "vehicle" page, it can refer to other things, such as playable karts/bikes/etc and the ''Diddy Kong Racing'' rides.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} - The vehicles are the same types of obstacles, with complete cosmetic and minor functional alterations, derived from their generic counterparts.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Yeah, in a gameplay sense, nothing separates cars and trucks any more than the various cars are separate from each other, so I've never really gotten the split. Actually, I was even planning on proposing this very merge a while back, but I forgot until now. My choice of merged title was gonna be "traffic", though.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Ray Trace}} The separate names (rather than being lumped as "Traffic"), audio, and visual differences between the obstacles are enough to warrant separate pages (we cover subjects like [[Keese]], [[Raving Piranha Plant]], [[Deku Baba]] into their own articles despite acting very similar to their base counterparts). In Mario Kart Wii, trucks have different properties aside from hitbox than cars (they block Mega characters). In Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 64, buses, trucks, and cars have varying hitboxes that are more than sufficient enough information to be designated as entirely separate objects.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} First of all, the existence of the Mushroom-shaped car, which is the only one of these vehicles to produce a Mushroom upon contact, is enough evidence to warrant the car article being split. Second of all, not only do both the truck and bus have many unique variants (such as both cargo trucks with glider ramps and surfboard trucks in the ''Mario Kart 8'' version of Toad's Turnpike, the trucks carrying Piranha Plants in ''Mario Kart Tour'', and the double-decker buses from London Loop), but their articles feature many other details like [[Lists of sponsors|sponsors]] and how their real-world counterparts are reflected in their in-game design, which would only become muddled if the articles were merged. Finally, even if a merge would make sense, a better name for the merged article would be "Traffic", fitting the definition of that word since the cars, trucks, and buses have been shown exclusively travelling along roads and highways, unlike the karts driven by players, which will freely race on [[Rainbow Road|public safety hazards]].
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per ThePowerPlayer, who made the same points I would've.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.

====Comments====
@Ray Those alternates don't appear in the same stages as each other, though, nor are they generic subjects. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:10, August 23, 2024 (EDT)
:It doesn't matter if they are shared in one track or many. They're still separate objects with different names and gameplay properties. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:12, August 23, 2024 (EDT)

@TPP I'd prefer if the Mushroom Car was split as well like the Wiggler and Bob-omb ones, I was surprised it wasn't when I made this proposal. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:22, August 24, 2024 (EDT)
:In addition to Doc's point, I also don't see how the merging of cars, trucks, and buses muddles things in regards to sponsors and real-world basises when this very article already covers many distinct designs of car. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:19, August 24, 2024 (EDT)

Oh, another thing. Somewhere needs to cover [[Coconut Mall]]'s red convertibles, which I'd definitely argue are a distinct object from these vehicles gameplay-wise and certainly aren't traffic. I changed the article to use the term "red convertible" consistently for them, but I'm not sure if we should name the article that, or just let them inherit this page when the traffic moves out. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:19, August 24, 2024 (EDT)
:As mentioned in the proposal, those are called "Mii drivers" and are treated as a separate type of obstacle. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:31, August 24, 2024 (EDT)
::I think it's just a better idea to leave them in the car page. They're just cars with different behavior. BTW if that's going to get split, then I do recommend those surfboard pickup trucks be at least split the same way [[Dash panel ramp truck]] is. {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:11, August 24, 2024 (EDT)

I could've sworn [[surfboard vehicle]] was its own page. Personally, I think all traffic vehicles with unique gameplay considerations — so Mushroom Cars, Bob-omb Cars, the Wiggler Wagon, dash panel ramp trucks, surfboard vehicles, and Piranha Plant trucks; if I'm not missing any — should get their own articles. Conversely, I don't see the reason to treat traffic vehicles ''without'' those unique gameplay considerations as distinct enough to warrant a separate article. {{unsigned|Ahemtoday}}
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Merge Car (obstacle), Truck, and Bus to "Vehicle (obstacle)" or "Traffic"==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|3-5|do not merge}}
 This page, [[truck]], and [[bus]] are all about a similar generic type of obstacle that is almost always encountered together, in "street" themed stages, and function exactly the same other than the dimensions of their hitboxes. It would be more efficient to cover them all in one page and list the types that appear under each game all at once than split it into three (particularly since the "truck" page covers both tractor-trailer semi trucks and small pickup trucks already); most of the game pages only list them as "vehicles" anyway. Note that this proposal does not cover the [[Wiggler Wagon]], [[Bob-omb Car]], or the [[Mii]] drivers from Coconut Mall, as the former two have a specialized ''Mario''-themed design and function while the latter is generally treated as a separate type of obstacle. I want to have the identifier there since while we don't specifically have a "vehicle" page, it can refer to other things, such as playable karts/bikes/etc and the ''Diddy Kong Racing'' rides.
@@ Line 17: / Line 16: @@
 #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per ThePowerPlayer, who made the same points I would've.
 #{{User|Axii}} Per all.
-#{{User|Nintendo101}} It wouldn't be the end of the world for them to be lumped, but I generally think we lump abiotic subjects like hazards and objects a bit more than we should, in a way we would not for enemies and characters. Even in discounting more unique vehicles like the Bob-omb and mushroom cars, even the generic vehicles are not just coats of paint covering the same type of obstacle. Trucks are larger than cars. They are a bigger hazard. Similar case with buses.
-<s>#{{User|Pizza Master}} Kinda seems like this merge would violate the "[[MarioWiki:Good writing#Everything but the kitchen sink|Everything but the kitchen sink]]" principle of the good writing guide.</s>
 ====Comments====
@@ Line 32: / Line 29: @@
 I could've sworn [[surfboard vehicle]] was its own page. Personally, I think all traffic vehicles with unique gameplay considerations — so Mushroom Cars, Bob-omb Cars, the Wiggler Wagon, dash panel ramp trucks, surfboard vehicles, and Piranha Plant trucks; if I'm not missing any — should get their own articles. Conversely, I don't see the reason to treat traffic vehicles ''without'' those unique gameplay considerations as distinct enough to warrant a separate article. {{unsigned|Ahemtoday}}
-:The [[truck]] page used to just cover the surfboard vehicles, then had its scope expanded to cover other trucks in May 2023, so that's probably what you're thinking of. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:32, August 27, 2024 (EDT)
-{{@|Pizza Master}} - That's not quite what "everything but the kitchen sink" refers to. That would be more like every instance of cars ''in general'' sharing an article, including the ones seen in the cartoons and movies and the benign ones in SMO's New Donk City. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:48, August 27, 2024 (EDT)
-Oops, my bad. Though, there are some small mechanical differences between the default versions of the different vehicle types such as Cars are launched by Mega Mushrooms but Trucks aren't and Trucks and Buses can feature ramps on their roofs but Cars can't. I guess whether those differences are classified as distinct enough depends on how big the mechanical differences are thought to need to be to fit said classification. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 21:47, August 27, 2024 (EDT)