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| == Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill == | | == Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|gray|deleted by proposer}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|gray|deleted by proposer}} |
| As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM&t=1m30s trailer] by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s | | As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM&t=1m30s trailer] by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s |
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| == Determine how to reorganize this page == | | == Determine how to reorganize this page == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|cancelled}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|cancelled}} |
| So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page. While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. <span class=explain title="おうふく">往復</span>キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with [[Porcupuffer]], which explicitly states that [[User talk:Mister Wu/30th Anniversary Books Related Questions#More encyclopedia names|it]] [[:File:SMW Zen Hyakka Porcupuffer.jpg|is]] a [[Cheep Cheep]], which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have [[Guided Bullet Bill]] split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the [[Bouncing Bullet Bill]] and [[Relay Heihō]], the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other. | | So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page. While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. <span class=explain title="おうふく">往復</span>キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with [[Porcupuffer]], which explicitly states that [[User talk:Mister Wu/30th Anniversary Books Related Questions#More encyclopedia names|it]] [[:File:SMW Zen Hyakka Porcupuffer.jpg|is]] a [[Cheep Cheep]], which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have [[Guided Bullet Bill]] split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the [[Bouncing Bullet Bill]] and [[Relay Heihō]], the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other. |
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| == Determine how to reorganize this page, take 2 == | | == Determine how to reorganize this page, take 2 == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|2-2-3-9|do nothing}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|2-2-3-9|do nothing}} |
| The discussion above has been going on for a ridiculous amount of time, and no consensus has been reached. In Japanese sources, the NSMBW Missile Bills are the first appearance of Missile Bills, while the ones from SMB3 and SMS are simple color variants there. However, in English sources, they're separate entities. | | The discussion above has been going on for a ridiculous amount of time, and no consensus has been reached. In Japanese sources, the NSMBW Missile Bills are the first appearance of Missile Bills, while the ones from SMB3 and SMS are simple color variants there. However, in English sources, they're separate entities. |
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| The first ''Purple Bullet Blues'' is an actual typo of the Versus guide.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:16, August 7, 2019 (EDT) | | The first ''Purple Bullet Blues'' is an actual typo of the Versus guide.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:16, August 7, 2019 (EDT) |
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| Furthermore, I uploaded the scans of the entries of the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' Bullet Bill variants {{file link|SMS ESMB Bullet Bills.png|in the Japanese ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''}} as well as {{file link|SMS NOG Bullet Bills.png|in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of that game}}. This is more for future reference, since a discussion over these Bullet Bills variants started here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:30, August 7, 2019 (EDT) | | Furthermore, I uploaded the scans of the entries of the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' Bullet Bill variants {{media link|SMS ESMB Bullet Bills.png|in the Japanese ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''}} as well as {{media link|SMS NOG Bullet Bills.png|in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of that game}}. This is more for future reference, since a discussion over these Bullet Bills variants started here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:30, August 7, 2019 (EDT) |
| :So two guides distinguish it, with one mistankely calling it Purple Bullet Blue. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:21, August 7, 2019 (EDT) | | :So two guides distinguish it, with one mistankely calling it Purple Bullet Blue. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:21, August 7, 2019 (EDT) |
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| ==Biting Bullet Bill== | | ==Biting Bullet Bill== |
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| Biting Bullet Bill slowly disappears after a while, instead of flying offscreen like the other Missile Bills. Should it be split into its own article? {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:29, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | | Biting Bullet Bill slowly disappears after a while, instead of flying offscreen like the other Missile Bills. Should it be split into its own article? {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:29, August 19, 2019 (EDT) |
| :I don't think so, it's still a bitey-chasy homing Bullet Bill that targets the player. How it exits the screen isn't a big enough difference to consider them completely different. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 11:25, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | | :I don't think so, it's still a bitey-chasy homing Bullet Bill that targets the player. How it exits the screen isn't a big enough difference to consider them completely different. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 11:25, August 19, 2019 (EDT) |
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| :::It ''was'' it's own article, but I proposed to have it merged, and that went through. I stand by what I said then. Plenty of SMW2 enemy behavior had new behaviors added that didn't really stick around aside from the <s>clones</s> sequels, like the suddenly-growing and actually-carnivorous Piranha Plants. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:31, August 19, 2019 (EDT) | | :::It ''was'' it's own article, but I proposed to have it merged, and that went through. I stand by what I said then. Plenty of SMW2 enemy behavior had new behaviors added that didn't really stick around aside from the <s>clones</s> sequels, like the suddenly-growing and actually-carnivorous Piranha Plants. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:31, August 19, 2019 (EDT) |
| ::::Yes, i don't necessarily disagree with it being here, but, the Japanese source treated as such. Like i said, my thoughts about current state is neutral, but i still stand my thoughts. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:19, August 20, 2019 (EDT) | | ::::Yes, i don't necessarily disagree with it being here, but, the Japanese source treated as such. Like i said, my thoughts about current state is neutral, but i still stand my thoughts. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:19, August 20, 2019 (EDT) |
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| ==Determine how to reorganize SMB3 Bill==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|red|Leave as-is 5-0-7}}
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| This is something that's been on my mind since [[Talk:Guided Bullet Bill#Merge to Bull's-Eye Bill or Bullet Bill (or both)|this proposal]]. Simply put, with Purple Bullet Bill and Guided Bullet Bill merged back into Bullet Bill, it makes sense to focus on the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' Missile Bill. To recap, "Missile Bill" refers to both the early ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and the current ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' ones, which have different behavior; the former just performs one immediate 180° about-face when passing its target, whereas the latter curves and accurately homes in on its target and takes its time pulling off a full circle rotation. You could say that this is due to the limitation not showing off the its dynamic motion, but when the limitation or lack thereof changes how the player fundamentally interacts with it, at what point do you consider it the same thing? As far as Japanese sources go, it's been referred to as both an unnamed subtype (described as taking a U-turn) and 「{{ruby|往復|おうふく}}キラー」(''Ōfuku Kirā'', Roundtrip Killer) in an older source; the English [https://archive.ph/0bmQD Mario Portal] recently does not mention it. So for this proposal, I'm including two options: the first option is to split off Missile Bill entirely as its own article, with a note at the top of the page stating that it was also the initial name for Bull's-Eye Bill; the second option is to merge the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' content into the main Bullet Bill and turn Missile Bill into a disambiguation page ala Boss Bass / Big Bertha.
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| Note that I'm not including the red ''Yoshi's Island'' Bullet Bill for now because I feel that out of all of the pre-NSMBW ones, it's still the most analogous to modern Bull's-Eye Bill, [[Bouncing Bullet Bill|its color counterpart]] did get fully split later on, and it almost undoubtedly would've been considered a full-fledged Bull's-Eye Bill had it made the cut in ''Yoshi's New Island''.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': <s>December 31, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to January 7, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to January 14, 2023, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Split Missile Bill (''Super Mario Bros. 3'')===
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preference as I feel like this can easily make a reappearance separate from either sometime.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Mister Wu}} The original Missile Bills never were homing Bullet Bills in the first place, and the Japanese guides, both modern and of the times, never pretended they were (which is why the names of the original Missile Bills found in them are different from ''Search Killer''). While we might argue that this U turn behavior was the first test of a behavior that eventually became a proper homing behavior, that is mostly a reconstruction that we do and that might have some merit to it, but still isn't enough for the original Missile Bills to be stated that they were homing in the Japanese ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', to name a recent example (and mind you, the original Japanese one was written along with Nintendo, so it is nowhere near as problematic as its translations).
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
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| <s>#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, especially the point about it being distinguished in Japanese sources.</s>
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| ===Merge Missile Bill (''Super Mario Bros. 3'') with Bullet Bill===
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| ===Leave Missile Bill (''Super Mario Bros. 3'') in Bull's-Eye Bill===
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} I don't see the value in splitting a flashing Bullet Bill that chases you called a Missile Bill from a flashing Bullet Bill that chases you called a Missile Bill. If the Japanese names were the same from the get-go this wouldn't even be brought up at all. Whether it's meant to be the exact same entity in SMB3 and NSMBW or not, it's similar enough to keep it all in one place.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Waluigi Time.
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Waluigi Time. I do not see the point in this.
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| #{{User|LadySophie17}} I believe they are the same enemy.
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| #{{User|Somethingone}} - I honestly fail to see how this case is any different from [[Ukiki]], who had a different English & Japanese name in their debut, was renamed in Japanese before it was renamed in English, & then when the newer English name came out nothing much had changed functionally or design-wise since then. If them being treated as a Bullet Bill variation in Japan only happened in SMB3 & Mario Portal listed them as a color variation of Bullet Bill via making Bullet Bull's image entry a mini-gallery & not just ignoring them entirely, then I would be in support of this. The difference between this and the SMS variation is that in Sunshine there were 2 other variations that also chased the player and none of the Bullet Bills in that game were red.
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| #{{User|Swallow}} Per all
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Since the main reason I was supporting turned out to be me not reading the proposal correctly, per all.
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| ===Comments===
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| @Waluigi Time: To be fair, the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' Prima guide is also the reason we're stuck with the King Bill confusion, and they evidently didn't get the memo about the Koopalings yet (and I forgot that modern Bull's-Eye Bill flashed since they don't do that outside ''Mario Party 9'' and the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games), though as I said, this proposal exists because the Purple/Guided Bullet Bill merge now makes this one stand out like a sore thumb in my opinion. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:05, December 18, 2022 (EST)
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| I feel like I might have misinterpreted something here - when you say Missile Bills were once identified as "an unnamed subtype", do you mean a subtype of standard Bullet Bill or of Bull's-Eye Bill? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:04, January 6, 2023 (EST)
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| :A subtype of Bullet Bill, specifically; Bull's-Eye Bill doesn't have any subtypes unless you counted the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' colors, but that was [[Talk:Guided Bullet Bill#Merge to Bull's-Eye Bill or Bullet Bill (or both)|another proposal]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:30, January 6, 2023 (EST)
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| :I'm personally puzzled how that changes anything. Mister Wu puts it well. Also, Boos from the same game will actively home in on you; Missile Bills just turn around once. Different behavior entirely. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:32, January 6, 2023 (EST)
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| ::It's about as homey as they could get on NES, since sprite rotation just plain isn't a thing on that level of processing power; ESMB/MP not even mentioning them makes this a bit more frustrating, though I want to point out how much the SMMSMB3 sprite resembles the red palette (minus flash) on the original SMB3. SMA3's also does u-turns, just with added rotation. I'm abstaining this round since I can see it go either way. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:36, January 6, 2023 (EST)
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| :::Why would Missile Bills need sprite rotation for more elaborate homing if Boos do just fine without? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 03:46, January 7, 2023 (EST)
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| ::::Same reason Boo's only slightly rotate to this day; they're floating ghosts. With ammunition rounds, you expect it to go the direction of the pointed end. It also is probably the reason Fire Chomp was faceless most of the time in SMB3, as that makes it appear more flexible. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:30, January 7, 2023 (EST)
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| :::::Sounds like realism for the sake of realism. Boos didn't have sprite rotation or extra sprites back in the day and their movements worked fine with what they were limited to, so logically a homing Bullet Bill could achieve the same on NES. Just sprites for facing left and right and code them to seek Mario's current position. Like how [[Mask Gate]] works. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 12:34, January 7, 2023 (EST)
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| ::::::For a bullet/missile, that's just off. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:49, January 7, 2023 (EST)
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| :::::::Couldn't they have used a different sprite if they really wanted to? Like, round off the back to have it resemble a cannonball, for example? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:07, January 8, 2023 (EST)
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| ::To answer why this made me change my vote, the only reason I was supporting at first is because I thought the proposal said that a Japanese source once addressed Missile Bills as an unnamed subtype of Bull's-Eye Bills (i.e. a separate thing from Bull's-Eye Bills), though in hindsight I should've realised that wasn't the case sooner given we probably would already have split them if it was. That was the only point that convinced me as I think the others are just too speculative, so now I've opposed. I'm not really sure where this talk of homing and rotation came from, I don't remember ever mentioning that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:49, January 7, 2023 (EST)
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| :::By "unnamed subtype" in Japanese sources, I mean that it was also just considered a Bullet Bill with alternate behavior, sort of like a color variant. [[Bull's-Eye Bill#Names in other languages|It's cited as such in the article.]] Technically, the second option might be the least speculative, but it's also the least popular. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:11, January 7, 2023 (EST)
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| One question: if this passes, will Bull's-Eye Bill be considered a variant of Bullet Bill or of Missile Bill? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:09, January 8, 2023 (EST)
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| :Hmm, it's too late to specify that in the proposal, and same goes for what to do with Bull's-Eye Blaster, so these decisions will just have to be informal. If the first option passes, I'd be fine with considering Bull's-Eye Bill as either a variant or relative of Missile Bill. Bull's-Eye Blaster would probably necessarily have to be split as "Turtle Cannon (Missile Bill)" ala Torpedo Base (Targeting Ted). Open to other suggestions, though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:26, January 8, 2023 (EST)
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| Sorry if I'm wrong, but shouldn't this proposal have failed already? There were 12 voters at the second deadline, half of which is 6, and 7 opposers. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:49, January 10, 2023 (EST)
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| == Chinese Names ==
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| What's the official Chinese name of this? [[User:Ffffff|Ffffff]] ([[User talk:Ffffff|talk]]) 19:05, June 1, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The name was added. --[[User:PhGuy12|PhGuy12]] ([[User talk:PhGuy12|talk]]) 15:20, June 2, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Super mario sunshine? ==
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| So you know super mario sunshine, which has purple bullet bills that home at the player? Well I think we should merge them as to being the same enemy as [[Bull's-Eye Bill]]s. Despite being purple,this the closest resemblance of them being bullseye bills because the other homing bullet bills didn't seem to be worth it enough(since not all homing bullet bills are bullseye bills). ([[User talk:31.127.147.101|talk]]) 7:39, October 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| :While certainly mechanically similar, the purple Bullet Bills are not recognized as the same enemy as Bull's-Eye Bill, and these also are not even the only varieties of Bullet Bill that home-in on the player, if I recall correctly. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:11, October 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| Oh yeah, right. The [[Cat Bullet Bill|Cat Bullet Bills]] from super mario 3d world, I can't believe I forgot them, anyways thanks for your time, you users are amazing! ([[User talk:31.127.147.101|talk]]) 16:04, Wednesday 6, 2024
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