Editing Talk:Bull's-Eye Banzai
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== Treatment of the "King Bill" name == | == Treatment of the "King Bill" name == | ||
I am 100% opposed to giving "King Bill" the "old name" treatment for a multiple reasons, not the least of which being that "King Bill" ''isn't'' an "old name" but a ''wrong'' name. It does not refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais, [[King_Bill#Trivia|Prima just used it as a catch all name for any large Bullet Bill variant]]. It's not the same thing as an actual [[King Bill]] and ''we know that''. Continuing to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais is confusing as fuck; people reading the [[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|World 9-3]] article cannot tell that King Bill is referring to these and not those ''other'' King Bills from the ''same game'' unless they mouse over the links. Why be confusing instead of clear? Just because of some stupid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive | I am 100% opposed to giving "King Bill" the "old name" treatment for a multiple reasons, not the least of which being that "King Bill" ''isn't'' an "old name" but a ''wrong'' name. It does not refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais, [[King_Bill#Trivia|Prima just used it as a catch all name for any large Bullet Bill variant]]. It's not the same thing as an actual [[King Bill]] and ''we know that''. Continuing to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais is confusing as fuck; people reading the [[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|World 9-3]] article cannot tell that King Bill is referring to these and not those ''other'' King Bills from the ''same game'' unless they mouse over the links. Why be confusing instead of clear? Just because of some stupid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 47#The Usage of Old Names in Articles|naming standard]] we established a while ago? Look, I don't oppose our current "old names" policy. Hell, I was one of the voters who helped establish it. But I was in favor of it because of things like "Goomba King" vs. "Goomboss." I wanted things to be clearer for people who played ''Paper Mario'' but not the other two games he appears in, and other scenarios like that. If I had known that this would be abused in the name of sucking up to shitty guide names, I wouldn't have been so quick to vouch for it. That said, I don't retract my support for that decision - I just don't think we should be following it so rigidly. Being overly concerned with the fact that the "Bulls-Eye Banzai" name didn't exist at the time is such a lawyerly, devil's advocate way of thinking that completely misses the point of ''why'' policies and standards exist in the first place. Proposals such as [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|this one]] and [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this one]] are made specifically because following policy in such an overly rigid and literal way actively makes the wiki worse. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 15:34, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:You're forgetting, of course, that "Bull's-Eye Banzai" is a play on "Bull's-Eye Bill" - a name which ''also'' did not exist until relatively recently (namely as late as ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker''). Therefore, this 'fix' alone would create a whole new disparity altogether. The simplest solution is to stick with the proposal/policy as-is, which is more chronologically-accurate anyway. If you want to discuss rewriting the existing text to be more understandable (e.g. "homing King Bills" and "invincible King Bills", or some other way to deal with it), that's fine, but the fact is that using a decade-later rename in the context of the original game makes another issue in this case. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:51, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | :You're forgetting, of course, that "Bull's-Eye Banzai" is a play on "Bull's-Eye Bill" - a name which ''also'' did not exist until relatively recently (namely as late as ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker''). Therefore, this 'fix' alone would create a whole new disparity altogether. The simplest solution is to stick with the proposal/policy as-is, which is more chronologically-accurate anyway. If you want to discuss rewriting the existing text to be more understandable (e.g. "homing King Bills" and "invincible King Bills", or some other way to deal with it), that's fine, but the fact is that using a decade-later rename in the context of the original game makes another issue in this case. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:51, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:I agree with not using King Bill when referring to past appearances of Bull's-Eye Banzai as it's obviously one of Prima's many goofs. There's no possible way it can't be a mistake, since King Bill is the name of an entirely different enemy within the exact same game altogether. Also, not only did they mistakenly call the Bull's-Eye Banzais King Bill, but they also did that for the regular Banzai Bills, which cements it being nothing but a goof even further in my opinion. Keeping King Bill in use here would basically be the same as treating Sumo Bro. as an official name of Sledge Bros. in certain games. I really don't think the name not existing at the time is an issue, since we already do this when applicable for subjects that didn't have an English name to begin with and are given a name in a later game. We don't keep using a Japanese name or something like that for appearances in older games, even though some supported this for Nipper Dandelion. (For the record, I also think situations like [[Fish Bone#New Super Mario Bros. Wii|this]] where a Prima goof is considered an official rename because there's no other material for that specific game are in the exact same boat and should be avoided) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | :I agree with not using King Bill when referring to past appearances of Bull's-Eye Banzai as it's obviously one of Prima's many goofs. There's no possible way it can't be a mistake, since King Bill is the name of an entirely different enemy within the exact same game altogether. Also, not only did they mistakenly call the Bull's-Eye Banzais King Bill, but they also did that for the regular Banzai Bills, which cements it being nothing but a goof even further in my opinion. Keeping King Bill in use here would basically be the same as treating Sumo Bro. as an official name of Sledge Bros. in certain games. I really don't think the name not existing at the time is an issue, since we already do this when applicable for subjects that didn't have an English name to begin with and are given a name in a later game. We don't keep using a Japanese name or something like that for appearances in older games, even though some supported this for Nipper Dandelion. (For the record, I also think situations like [[Fish Bone#New Super Mario Bros. Wii|this]] where a Prima goof is considered an official rename because there's no other material for that specific game are in the exact same boat and should be avoided) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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My thoughts. | My thoughts. | ||
My seething hatred for the "Prima name" from years ago ''has not died down one bit''. I railed against it then, and I'll rail against it now. No one is ever going to convince me that just "accepting it" is the right choice here. The mistake isn't even unique to this specific enemy; why shouldn't we also call the Banzai Bills in this game "King Bills" as well? I can at least ''understand'' the Construction Site Fight/Balloon Barrage thing, even if I don't agree with it. Not this. This is just taking "stick to the guidelines" way too far, like having the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive | My seething hatred for the "Prima name" from years ago ''has not died down one bit''. I railed against it then, and I'll rail against it now. No one is ever going to convince me that just "accepting it" is the right choice here. The mistake isn't even unique to this specific enemy; why shouldn't we also call the Banzai Bills in this game "King Bills" as well? I can at least ''understand'' the Construction Site Fight/Balloon Barrage thing, even if I don't agree with it. Not this. This is just taking "stick to the guidelines" way too far, like having the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|''MP3'' duel board names in ALL CAPS]]. | ||
That said, the proposed solution is not the correct one. A better idea would be to use the Japanese name or refer to them generically ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:7feetunder/sandbox&oldid=4114603 e.g. homing Banzai Bill]). At least that's less confusing to readers, as opposed to eschewing clarity and credibility in favor of shamelessly clinging to established standards like a life raft. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:45, January 14, 2024 (EST) | That said, the proposed solution is not the correct one. A better idea would be to use the Japanese name or refer to them generically ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:7feetunder/sandbox&oldid=4114603 e.g. homing Banzai Bill]). At least that's less confusing to readers, as opposed to eschewing clarity and credibility in favor of shamelessly clinging to established standards like a life raft. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:45, January 14, 2024 (EST) | ||
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== Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" for coverage in New Super Mario Bros. Wii == | == Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" for coverage in New Super Mario Bros. Wii == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
When ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'' was released for English-speaking territories, not all new enemies were provided English names to the public. In particular, it seems that [[Prima Games]] was provided incomplete information from Nintendo of America that impacted some of the choices made in their guidebook, some of which contradicts other media for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' at the time. For example, the [[Propeller Mushroom]], which goes by that name in the instruction booklet on page 15, is referred to as the "Propellerhead" by Prima Games (as exemplified on page 13 and elsewhere in the book). [[Fuzzy|Fuzzies]], returning enemies, are completely unmentioned in the guidebook, and [[Mechakoopa]]s are referred to as "Windup Koopas" (p. 16) despite going by "Mechakoopa" on their [[:File:NSMBWiiTC-17-Back.png|EnterPlay trading card]] for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii.'' The new enemy [[Scaredy Rat]] is also unmentioned in the guidebook. It is possible Prima Games was provided information early on that ended up getting changed closer to the release, but the point is that there were unusual localization choices in the guidebook unreflected elsewhere, including for returning and new enemies. | When ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'' was released for English-speaking territories, not all new enemies were provided English names to the public. In particular, it seems that [[Prima Games]] was provided incomplete information from Nintendo of America that impacted some of the choices made in their guidebook, some of which contradicts other media for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' at the time. For example, the [[Propeller Mushroom]], which goes by that name in the instruction booklet on page 15, is referred to as the "Propellerhead" by Prima Games (as exemplified on page 13 and elsewhere in the book). [[Fuzzy|Fuzzies]], returning enemies, are completely unmentioned in the guidebook, and [[Mechakoopa]]s are referred to as "Windup Koopas" (p. 16) despite going by "Mechakoopa" on their [[:File:NSMBWiiTC-17-Back.png|EnterPlay trading card]] for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii.'' The new enemy [[Scaredy Rat]] is also unmentioned in the guidebook. It is possible Prima Games was provided information early on that ended up getting changed closer to the release, but the point is that there were unusual localization choices in the guidebook unreflected elsewhere, including for returning and new enemies. | ||
Skimming through prior proposals on this page should make it apparent that this enemy, eventually localized in | Skimming through prior proposals on this page should make it apparent that this enemy, eventually localized in-game as a "[[Bull's-Eye Banzai]]," was one of them, going by "King Bill" in the Prima guidebook and this was inherently confusing because [[King Bill|another enemy]] goes by that name in the same book, as well as subsequent media like ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. While true, I think that is a misinterpretation of how "King Bill" is applied to enemies in the guidebook, or at least not the whole story. Because "King Bill" is not discretely applied to these enemies - it is also applied to the returning [[Banzai Bill]], and is in fact the first enemy in the guidebook called a "King Bill" (p. 16, 136, 142) and the one most often referred to as a "King Bill." The name "Banzai Bill" is not used anywhere in the guidebook. So, "King Bill" is not being applied in the Prima guidebook to [[King Bill|one enemy]] and then erroneously applied to [[Bull's-Eye Banzai|another]]. Rather, it is a categorical term for all large Bullet Bill variants, regardless of what they are. The reasons why? I do not know. But King Bill was never applied to any of these enemies as a discrete name, but as a categorical term equally applicable to all of them and should not be considered a true discrete name for Bull's-Eye Banzais. | ||
Across the wiki, I still see "[[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|King Bill]]" and "[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii|Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill]]" applied inconsistently for this enemy, and I do not think that should be the case. The first proper localization for this enemy is Bull's-Eye Banzai and that should be the name we use for it in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. The name used on Mario Portal - "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" - was introduced earlier this year, and I do not believe it is accurate to apply it to an enemy that did receive legitimate localization earlier. I consider it a comparable situation to something like Scaredy Rat, which went unnamed in English until <s>''Paper Mario: Sticker Star''</s> ''[[Mario Party 9]]''. | Across the wiki, I still see "[[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|King Bill]]" and "[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii|Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill]]" applied inconsistently for this enemy, and I do not think that should be the case. The first proper localization for this enemy is Bull's-Eye Banzai and that should be the name we use for it in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. The name used on Mario Portal - "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" - was introduced earlier this year, and I do not believe it is accurate to apply it to an enemy that did receive legitimate localization earlier. I consider it a comparable situation to something like Scaredy Rat, which went unnamed in English until <s>''Paper Mario: Sticker Star''</s> ''[[Mario Party 9]]''. | ||
#'''Support: Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' coverage.''' | #'''Support: Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' coverage.''' | ||
#'''Oppose: Continue calling it "King Bill (World 9-3)" in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' coverage.''' | #'''Oppose: Continue calling it "King Bill (World 9-3)" in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' coverage.''' | ||
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#{{User|Pseudo}} This seems extremely sensible, particularly for coverage of this enemy in other articles. | #{{User|Pseudo}} This seems extremely sensible, particularly for coverage of this enemy in other articles. | ||
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all. | #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all. | ||
=== | ===Oppose: call it "King Bill (World 9-3)" in NSMBW coverage=== | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
Slight correction on the Scaredy Rat part: its name was actually introduced in ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', which came out a bit earlier than Sticker Star. I should know, [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Scaredy_Rat&oldid=1230822 I created the Scaredy Rat article myself] after [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Little_Mouser&diff=1230821&oldid=1230410 splitting it from Little Mouser] ''years ago'' when I found out about the Scaredy Rat name from some Captain Event footage for [[Boo's Horror Castle]] (prior to that, the wiki had assumed that Scaredy Rat was a redesign of Little Mouser, probably because neither the Prima guide nor the Enter-play trading cards had mentioned Scaredy Rats before). {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:46, September 22, 2024 (EDT) | Slight correction on the Scaredy Rat part: its name was actually introduced in ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', which came out a bit earlier than Sticker Star. I should know, [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Scaredy_Rat&oldid=1230822 I created the Scaredy Rat article myself] after [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Little_Mouser&diff=1230821&oldid=1230410 splitting it from Little Mouser] ''years ago'' when I found out about the Scaredy Rat name from some Captain Event footage for [[Boo's Horror Castle]] (prior to that, the wiki had assumed that Scaredy Rat was a redesign of Little Mouser, probably because neither the Prima guide nor the Enter-play trading cards had mentioned Scaredy Rats before). {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:46, September 22, 2024 (EDT) | ||
I personally wanted to wait until ''Super Mario Party Jamboree'' so that Banzai Bill is (likely) Bomber Bill. Either way, the name would have to have retroactive elements since "Bull's-Eye" Bill didn't exist until 2014, and in fact, they were still Missile Bills for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. With that in mind, I'd rather there be a Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill option since at least Nintendo used it in external text in reference to this game, even if it came about sometime later. (Although the current "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" mention contradicts the previous proposals.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:59, September 22, 2024 (EDT) | I personally wanted to wait until ''Super Mario Party Jamboree'' so that Banzai Bill is (likely) Bomber Bill. Either way, the name would have to have retroactive elements since "Bull's-Eye" Bill didn't exist until 2014, and in fact, they were still Missile Bills for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. With that in mind, I'd rather there be a Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill option since at least Nintendo used it in external text in reference to this game, even if it came about sometime later. (Although the current "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" mention contradicts the previous proposals.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:59, September 22, 2024 (EDT) | ||