Editing Talk:Bull's-Eye Banzai
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{{Proposal outcome|failed|3-1-12| | {{Proposal outcome|failed|3-1-12|don't rename}} | ||
This page should be renamed. This name is not official and only comes from a Prima guide. I even checked [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|MarioWiki:Naming]] and it said that Prima guides are only valid sources ''if it was released before Super Mario Galaxy''. This game was released ''two years later''. And, even though we ''do'' have articles with unofficial names, it's too confusing having two articles titled "King Bill". So I propose we rename this article to {{fake link|Homing Banzai Bill}} under the {{tem|conjecture}} template. If you think the article should be moved to a different name, please specify in the designated section. | This page should be renamed. This name is not official and only comes from a Prima guide. I even checked [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|MarioWiki:Naming]] and it said that Prima guides are only valid sources ''if it was released before Super Mario Galaxy''. This game was released ''two years later''. And, even though we ''do'' have articles with unofficial names, it's too confusing having two articles titled "King Bill". So I propose we rename this article to {{fake link|Homing Banzai Bill}} under the {{tem|conjecture}} template. If you think the article should be moved to a different name, please specify in the designated section. | ||
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== Treatment of the "King Bill" name == | == Treatment of the "King Bill" name == | ||
I am 100% opposed to giving "King Bill" the "old name" treatment for a multiple reasons, not the least of which being that "King Bill" ''isn't'' an "old name" but a ''wrong'' name. It does not refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais, [[King_Bill#Trivia|Prima just used it as a catch all name for any large Bullet Bill variant]]. It's not the same thing as an actual [[King Bill]] and ''we know that''. Continuing to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais is confusing as fuck; people reading the [[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|World 9-3]] article cannot tell that King Bill is referring to these and not those ''other'' King Bills from the ''same game'' unless they mouse over the links. Why be confusing instead of clear? Just because of some stupid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive | I am 100% opposed to giving "King Bill" the "old name" treatment for a multiple reasons, not the least of which being that "King Bill" ''isn't'' an "old name" but a ''wrong'' name. It does not refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais, [[King_Bill#Trivia|Prima just used it as a catch all name for any large Bullet Bill variant]]. It's not the same thing as an actual [[King Bill]] and ''we know that''. Continuing to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais is confusing as fuck; people reading the [[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|World 9-3]] article cannot tell that King Bill is referring to these and not those ''other'' King Bills from the ''same game'' unless they mouse over the links. Why be confusing instead of clear? Just because of some stupid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 47#The Usage of Old Names in Articles|naming standard]] we established a while ago? Look, I don't oppose our current "old names" policy. Hell, I was one of the voters who helped establish it. But I was in favor of it because of things like "Goomba King" vs. "Goomboss." I wanted things to be clearer for people who played ''Paper Mario'' but not the other two games he appears in, and other scenarios like that. If I had known that this would be abused in the name of sucking up to shitty guide names, I wouldn't have been so quick to vouch for it. That said, I don't retract my support for that decision - I just don't think we should be following it so rigidly. Being overly concerned with the fact that the "Bulls-Eye Banzai" name didn't exist at the time is such a lawyerly, devil's advocate way of thinking that completely misses the point of ''why'' policies and standards exist in the first place. Proposals such as [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|this one]] and [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this one]] are made specifically because following policy in such an overly rigid and literal way actively makes the wiki worse. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 15:34, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:You're forgetting, of course, that "Bull's-Eye Banzai" is a play on "Bull's-Eye Bill" - a name which ''also'' did not exist until relatively recently (namely as late as ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker''). Therefore, this 'fix' alone would create a whole new disparity altogether. The simplest solution is to stick with the proposal/policy as-is, which is more chronologically-accurate anyway. If you want to discuss rewriting the existing text to be more understandable (e.g. "homing King Bills" and "invincible King Bills", or some other way to deal with it), that's fine, but the fact is that using a decade-later rename in the context of the original game makes another issue in this case. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:51, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | :You're forgetting, of course, that "Bull's-Eye Banzai" is a play on "Bull's-Eye Bill" - a name which ''also'' did not exist until relatively recently (namely as late as ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker''). Therefore, this 'fix' alone would create a whole new disparity altogether. The simplest solution is to stick with the proposal/policy as-is, which is more chronologically-accurate anyway. If you want to discuss rewriting the existing text to be more understandable (e.g. "homing King Bills" and "invincible King Bills", or some other way to deal with it), that's fine, but the fact is that using a decade-later rename in the context of the original game makes another issue in this case. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:51, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:I agree with not using King Bill when referring to past appearances of Bull's-Eye Banzai as it's obviously one of Prima's many goofs. There's no possible way it can't be a mistake, since King Bill is the name of an entirely different enemy within the exact same game altogether. Also, not only did they mistakenly call the Bull's-Eye Banzais King Bill, but they also did that for the regular Banzai Bills, which cements it being nothing but a goof even further in my opinion. Keeping King Bill in use here would basically be the same as treating Sumo Bro. as an official name of Sledge Bros. in certain games. I really don't think the name not existing at the time is an issue, since we already do this when applicable for subjects that didn't have an English name to begin with and are given a name in a later game. We don't keep using a Japanese name or something like that for appearances in older games, even though some supported this for Nipper Dandelion. (For the record, I also think situations like [[Fish Bone#New Super Mario Bros. Wii|this]] where a Prima goof is considered an official rename because there's no other material for that specific game are in the exact same boat and should be avoided) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | :I agree with not using King Bill when referring to past appearances of Bull's-Eye Banzai as it's obviously one of Prima's many goofs. There's no possible way it can't be a mistake, since King Bill is the name of an entirely different enemy within the exact same game altogether. Also, not only did they mistakenly call the Bull's-Eye Banzais King Bill, but they also did that for the regular Banzai Bills, which cements it being nothing but a goof even further in my opinion. Keeping King Bill in use here would basically be the same as treating Sumo Bro. as an official name of Sledge Bros. in certain games. I really don't think the name not existing at the time is an issue, since we already do this when applicable for subjects that didn't have an English name to begin with and are given a name in a later game. We don't keep using a Japanese name or something like that for appearances in older games, even though some supported this for Nipper Dandelion. (For the record, I also think situations like [[Fish Bone#New Super Mario Bros. Wii|this]] where a Prima goof is considered an official rename because there's no other material for that specific game are in the exact same boat and should be avoided) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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My thoughts. | My thoughts. | ||
My seething hatred for the "Prima name" from years ago ''has not died down one bit''. I railed against it then, and I'll rail against it now. No one is ever going to convince me that just "accepting it" is the right choice here. The mistake isn't even unique to this specific enemy; why shouldn't we also call the Banzai Bills in this game "King Bills" as well? I can at least ''understand'' the Construction Site Fight/Balloon Barrage thing, even if I don't agree with it. Not this. This is just taking "stick to the guidelines" way too far, like having the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive | My seething hatred for the "Prima name" from years ago ''has not died down one bit''. I railed against it then, and I'll rail against it now. No one is ever going to convince me that just "accepting it" is the right choice here. The mistake isn't even unique to this specific enemy; why shouldn't we also call the Banzai Bills in this game "King Bills" as well? I can at least ''understand'' the Construction Site Fight/Balloon Barrage thing, even if I don't agree with it. Not this. This is just taking "stick to the guidelines" way too far, like having the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|''MP3'' duel board names in ALL CAPS]]. | ||
That said, the proposed solution is not the correct one. A better idea would be to use the Japanese name or refer to them generically ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:7feetunder/sandbox&oldid=4114603 e.g. homing Banzai Bill]). At least that's less confusing to readers, as opposed to eschewing clarity and credibility in favor of shamelessly clinging to established standards like a life raft. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:45, January 14, 2024 (EST) | That said, the proposed solution is not the correct one. A better idea would be to use the Japanese name or refer to them generically ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:7feetunder/sandbox&oldid=4114603 e.g. homing Banzai Bill]). At least that's less confusing to readers, as opposed to eschewing clarity and credibility in favor of shamelessly clinging to established standards like a life raft. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:45, January 14, 2024 (EST) | ||
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So I've heard a lot of arguments in this discussion board. What is the general consensus regarding the name of this enemy? Because it appears far less frequently it is harder to compare it with the Cheep Chomp and Porcupuffer issue also caused by the Prima Guide. I wasn't aware that this was such a heated debate and accidentally made a few edits assuming someone mistakenly mislabeled the enemy. I can't revert all the changes due to some anti-vandalism measures but I do hope I don't start another massive argument over the name of a red homing missile. -[[Weej]] | So I've heard a lot of arguments in this discussion board. What is the general consensus regarding the name of this enemy? Because it appears far less frequently it is harder to compare it with the Cheep Chomp and Porcupuffer issue also caused by the Prima Guide. I wasn't aware that this was such a heated debate and accidentally made a few edits assuming someone mistakenly mislabeled the enemy. I can't revert all the changes due to some anti-vandalism measures but I do hope I don't start another massive argument over the name of a red homing missile. -[[Weej]] | ||
