Editing Talk:Bubba

I'm pretty sure the "Bubbas" in Super Mario Sunshine aren't the same type of fish as these guys. [[User:Xanofar|Xanofar]] 14:21, 5 January 2009 (EST)

:Designs for enemies change from game to game, but we should try to find some proof the Super Mario Sunshine "Bubbas" are indeed named Bubba. -- {{User|Son of Suns}}

::They are Cheep-cheeps, as that's what they're called by the NA and Japanese guides.--[[User:Vommack|Vommack]] 21:27, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Why are we calling the replacements for Bubba in Super Mario 64 DS Big Bertha? I think it's supposed to be [[Boss Bass]]. They look identical and Big Bertha doesn't swallow Mario, but Boss Bass does. {{User|Pseudo-dino}}
:They do behave much more like a Boss Bass then a Big Bertha. Can someone check their name...?--[[User:Vommack|Vommack]] 21:24, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

== Mario Party ==

As seen in a [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4-O-rmdi-E&t=3m45s Japanese ''Mario Party'' gameplay video,] the name for a generic Cheep Cheep is used rather than Bubba. This explains why the "Bubba" of that game looks so different, and has a similar model as the overgrown Cheep Cheep from ''Mario Party 3'' and the smaller "Bub" from ''Super Mario 64''. Should the ''Mario Party'' appearance be considered mistaken identity and instead be placed in the Cheep Cheep article? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:40, 11 April 2015 (EDT)

==Move Super Mario 64 DS Boss Bass info over to Bubba or Merge==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|green|merge 4-0}}
We currently list the ''Super Mario 64'' Bubba as having been replaced by the ''Super Mario 64 DS'' Boss Bass. [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Big_Bertha&diff=prev&oldid=127392 Judging] [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Big_Bertha&diff=424347&oldid=385004 from] [http://www.supercheats.com/nintendods/walkthroughs/supermario64ds-walkthrough05.txt the] [http://mario.neoseeker.com/wiki/Enemies_%28SM64DS%29 confusion,] I think the giant fish in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' should be considered, at minimum, a redesign in ''Super Mario 64 DS''. We don't have a solid source stating that the enemy was changed, or which enemy it was changed to (the article even notes that the appearance of the fish in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' looks like a Cheep Chomp model in ''New Super Mario Bros.'') Going a step further - we have Bubba and Boss Bass basically deemed under the same Japanese names (albeit the latter was renamed), so a full merge between these two would essentially be analogous to the merge between Bub and Cheep Cheep.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 1, 2015 (23:59 GMT)

===Merge them entirely===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My position from the [[Talk:Cheep_Chomp#Merge_Big_Bertha.2C_Boss_Bass.2C_and_Bubba_with_Cheep_Chomp|previous]] [[Talk:Boss_Bass#Merge_Boss_Bass_with_Big_Bertha|proposals]] has changed a bit, but I still think merging these two would be the optimal solution.
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per LinkTheLefty.
#{{User|Bwburke94}} Per all.
#{{User|Burningdragon25}} That is a merge so, per all three!

===Move section only===

===Keep as-is===

===Comments===
To be clear, Bubba would be merged into Boss Bass, correct? Seeing as it's the more recent name and is more recurring than Bubba, it's pretty obvious contextually that it'll go that way, but as the proposal doesn't currently say that specifically, I feel it's best to be safe than sorry (and also ensure a nice, straightforward record to look back on). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 00:11, 23 April 2015 (EDT)
:Yep. Just so everyone's on the same page, it was last named in ''Super Paper Mario'', so preference would go to that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:50, 25 April 2015 (EDT)

==Reorganize SM64 Bubba within Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|green|Bakubaku is Cheep Chomp 0-5-6-0}}
The above proposal may have slightly misinterpreted the facts - according to ''{{media link|SMP page 62 excerpt.png|Super Mario Pia}}'', what we know as Cheep Chomp technically made its debut in ''Super Mario 64'', and the only official appearance of Boss Bass or Big Bertha in a main platformer was ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. This means that the shady Bubba is the first appearance of Cheep Chomp rather than one of the last appearances of Boss Bass. Listing the orange and purple fish as one and the same indicates the redesign happened at a later point, not that that the reddish fish was renamed and its newer name reused for a similar yet different enemy, which is the wiki's current stance. The same source was also used as evidence to split the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' Bat from Swoop, so with this information in mind, we can proceed in a few ways to better align ourselves with it.

'''''Option 1:''' Move SM64 Bubba from Boss Bass to Cheep Chomp.''

This option performs the bare minimum needed to satisfy the listing in ''Super Mario Pia'', only moving the ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Mario Golf 64'' appearances of the original N64 design. However, this option ignores the fact that the fish goes by Bakubaku - the name for Cheep Chomp - internally in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' and in the Nintendo Dream guide for ''Yoshi's Island DS''. Thus, this option considers the fish in ''Super Mario 64 DS'' to be a replacement of the one in ''Super Mario 64'', not a redesign as the above proposal attempted to rectify. Basically, the wiki will continue to treat the red fish as Boss Bass, regardless of any complication with its name.

'''''Option 2:''' Move SM64 Bubba and SM64DS Bakubaku from Boss Bass to Cheep Chomp.''

This option is a little more intensive than the above. It treats the red fish from ''Super Mario 64 DS'' that resembles Boss Bass as Cheep Chomp. This is due to the fact that while the Nintendo DS Pocket Guide by Prima Games leaves the name unstated, its ''Super Mario 64 DS'' appearance is still internally labeled as Bakubaku, which matches its ''Super Mario 64'' appearance. This option also skips the red fish in ''Yoshi's Island DS'', which is referred to as Boss Bass in English guides but Bakubaku in Japanese material (not to mention Bessie Bass), making it somewhat of a compromise of the two viewpoints.

'''''Option 3:''' Move Bakubaku from Boss Bass to Cheep Chomp.''

Put simply, this option adheres strictly to Japanese naming and deems Bakubaku to wholly be its own entity rather than both a rename and split of Boss Bass. ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and related/western works (namely ''The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3'' and ''Mario Teaches Typing'') retain their Boss Bass status, but ''Super Mario 64'' and beyond will be considered Cheep Chomp, regardless of the name Boss Bass used in the English ''Yoshi's Island DS'' guides (though this will still be noted in the appropriate section similar to how Sledge Bro was mistakenly referred to as Sumo Bro for three game guides).

'''''Option 4:''' Leave SM64 Bubba in Boss Bass.''

This is more or less per the previous proposal; additionally, ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' (on page 85) labels the ''Super Mario 64'' enemy as "Boss Bass" and has the following description: "''Also known as Bubba, they swim underwater, and try to gulp Mario down into their large mouths.''" However, the Japanese version (on page 86) doesn't make any connection to the SMB3 enemy at all. Given the controversial English translation, it's safe to say that this information came from us, which is precisely why I recommend we update Bubba's standing to reflect its ''Super Mario Pia'' listing in one of the three other ways.

"''Why not split Bubba?''"

[[Bubba]] is in the same boat as [[Bub]], being inventions of localization. While some licensed books can be iffy, there's no reason to doubt the Japanese ''Super Mario Pia'' at this time.

"''Why not just merge them all together?''"

There have been proposals for the same thing yet no new information has come to light that demands revisiting them. Also, the mouth-brooding [[Big Bertha]] would complicate such a merge.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 17, 2018, 23:59 GMT

===Option 1: Move SM64 Bubba to Cheep Chomp===

===Option 2: Move SM64 Bubba and SM64DS Bakubaku to Cheep Chomp===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} This is a middle ground that sits between the above minimalistic approach and the below extensive version. While I believe the idea of Boss Boss (and Big Bertha) being prototypical Cheep Chomps is closest to what Japanese sources have been trying to convey, the red ''Yoshi's Island DS'' fish is called Boss Bass in English sources, and it would be confusing to place it in the Cheep Chomp article without a full merge.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I'd personally prefer to merge all of the above at this point, but I don't think that the SMB3 and YIDS info should be on different pages.
#{{User|WeirdDave13}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} So, it means that the SMB3 Boss Bass and Big Bertha are the same thing just with a different behavior, but Boss Bass aren't the same SMB3 thing in the subsequent games. The first games had the Cheep Chomp colored to ressemble a normal Cheep-Cheep, which leaded the localizer to think it's a Boss Bass. As you provided a scan, we have now a proof that the Boss Bass that appeared in those games were actually the first appearance of a Cheep Chomp. The newer games recolor the latter, being purple with green dorsal fin and tail to distinguish them between these and the SMB3 Boss Bass. SM64 ones didn't have Baby Cheep Cheeps, but anyways were in water, and these were trying to eat Mario.
#{{User|bwburke94}} I'm a bit confused as to what the localization did, but this seems to be the right course of action.

===Option 3: Move Bakubaku to Cheep Chomp===
#{{User|Niiue}} This seems the most appropriate option to me.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I'll additionally vote here as it can provide a better logical segue to merging them all, as keeping them apart seems pointless at this point.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Considering what the book says, it's definitely possible that there was a phase in which Bakubaku was made looking similar to a Boss Bass before becoming its own thing - that still resembles a Boss Bass anyway. It's interesting how the first Bakukbaku redesign, with the Boss Bass color pattern, already had the different comb, fin/wings and tail that became typical of Cheep Chomp.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per all, especially Mister Wu.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per Mister Wu.

===Option 4: Leave SM64 Bubba and SM64DS/YIDS Bakubaku as Boss Bass===

===Comments===
Thing is, it probably ''was'' intended to be the same thing as the SMB3 enemy, but renamed due to the fact that having an enemy named "''Kyodai Pukupuku''" wouldn't work if it were the same size as regular ''Pukupuku''. However, they are definitely intended to be the same as Cheep Chomp, what with sharing the JP name, model, behavior, noises....  [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:50, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
:I see this situation as somewhat similar to Grinder and Ukiki in that, perhaps, they were intended to be separate but got composited. I also think the simplest solution would be to merge Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp but that would be contrary to ''Super Mario Pia'' deeming them separate (although the book ''does'' get a few things wrong like listing Mecha-Bowser within Mechakoopa on the name alone, despite clearly not being the same). If there's support, I'll add full merge as another option. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:07, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
::To be fair on the Mecha Bowser bit, the game in question was ''Super Mario Sunshine'', which threw most established enemy rules out the window....anyways, I also wouldn't consider Big Bertha much of an issue aside from the comic appearance possibly, as the red Cheep Cheep was the single most versatile enemy in SMB3, having at least four behaviors (though admittedly all involved jumping). Cheep Cheeps are generally very versatile, as I pointed out on their page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:51, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
:::True, but my thought is that the proposal should focus on Bubba, especially since the earlier proposals for Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp (and Big Bertha to a lesser extent) failed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:24, 5 November 2018 (EST)

@FanOfYoshi Technically, it's all the same fish, and no official material, aside from the discredited SMBE, refer to the thing in SM64/DS as a "Boss Bass," from what we can tell. It's just that this acts far more like the NSMB portrayals than the jumpers, given it's the same coded object with a few minor changes to account for being on a 2D playing field. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:00, 14 November 2018 (EST)
::@Schmeltwick, and should we merge Big Bertha to Boss Bass? They only have behavioral differences, similar to Koopa Troopas, but not the color. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:46, 15 November 2018 (EST)
:::They also share the SMB3 Boss Bass's Japanese name, so... --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:44, 15 November 2018 (EST)
::::Yes, like I was saying, a Cheep Cheep having different behavior depending on water depth has been part of their thing since the beginning. Cheeps are just versatile. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:11, 15 November 2018 (EST)
My bad that I didn't check before... the ''Mario Kart DS'' Banshee Boardwalk fish that looks like the redesigned Bakubaku ''is'' a Bakubaku, as stated in the internal files of the game - indeed it has all the features of the Cheep Chomp that I mentioned above ("comb", fin/wings, tail) with the color pattern of the original Boss Bass. Apart from reinforcing the theory that Bakubaku had a redesign that looked like a Boss Bass while still having the features that are typical of what we know as Cheep Chomp after the recoloring, we'll need to add this Bakubaku at the end of the propsal.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:05, 17 November 2018 (EST)
:I must've missed where ''Mario Kart DS'' (and ''Yoshi's Island DS'') labeled it Bakubaku, but I'll take your word for it. Regardless, that's a very good point about the Bubba / Cheep Chomp redesign still being slightly physically different from Boss Bass / Big Bertha besides the recolor. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:14, 17 November 2018 (EST)
::At the moment I don't have the files of ''Yoshi's Island DS'', anyway, as far as ''Mario Kart DS'' is concerned, the file is ''bakubaku.nsbmd'' and it's in the archive of the course named ''old_hyudoro_64'', in case ask me if you want further information to check.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 14:28, 17 November 2018 (EST)

Regarding the "comb," the dorsal fin stylized into a mohawk has been present on Cheep Cheep since the first game, according to artwork, it's just that period between SMW and MP6 or so when Cheep Cheep's design was inconsistent kinda obfuscates that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:44, 17 November 2018 (EST)
:We are not talking about the Cheep Cheeps, though, but about Boss Bass, in this case, both the artwork and sprites (''Super Mario Bros. 3'' as well as ''Super Mario All Stars'' and ''Super Mario Advance 4'') showed a dorsal fin without that many mohawk strands.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:40, 17 November 2018 (EST)
::{{media link|BossBass SMB3.jpg|Clear mohawk strand.}} [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:37, 17 November 2018 (EST)
:::We can see {{media link|Sea_Side.jpg|here}} a Big Bertha with a Baby Cheep and Cheep Cheep, and you can see that the "wings" and tail are still different between them (also Cheep Chomp has a slightly different shape to it). Honestly, I see Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp in a somewhat similar situation as Grinder/Ukiki and Himan/Mega Bros. (Sledge Bro), but since we've focused just on Bubba I'm satisfied with the design explanation for now at least. Besides, I overlooked the ''Mario Kart DS'' appearance, so the rationale for the second option would've been wrong. Although if anything, that artwork makes a good segue into reexamining Boss Bass / Big Bertha. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:51, 18 November 2018 (EST)
::::The wings and tail in BB's sprites are presumably intended to look like an enlarged version of those of the Cheep Cheeps' sprites, as they were intended to be a "large" version of them in that game, and the latter didn't have a lot of detail in that game. The artwork was probably based more on that than anything. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:25, 18 November 2018 (EST)