Editing Talk:Bowser's Minions

== Alternate Versions ==

Should Clawgrip, Tryclyde, Fryguy and Mouser (the character), who were members of the "Koopa Pack"/"Koopa Troopers" in The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! and Nintendo Comics System, be included on the list of operatives? -- [[User: Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

Yes, but with tags next to their names stating that it was only on the Super Show. [[User:Booster|Booster]]

:I'd say so. Also, shouldn't Yoshi be listed under the enemies of the Koopa Troop (as he helped bring them down in ''Super Mario World'', ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ext...? --[[User:Bentendo|Bentendo]] 11:07, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

::Isn't that "enemies of the Koopa Troop"... well, isn't there like, <nowiki>[[Category:Protecters of the Mushroom Kingdom]]</nowiki> or something? [[User:Maxlover2|Max2]]

They don't really need to be protectors of the Mushroom Kingdom to be enemies of the Koopa Troop; guys like the Smithy Gang and X-Nauts are enemies of the Koopa Troop, but certainly not protectors of the Mushroom Kingdom. -- [[User: Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

I mean, technically we could put, like Taste T. or the bush that gives you the Koopa leaf 8) but really, there are to many enemies of the Koopa Troop. [[User:Maxlover2|Max2]]

:But the Yoshi species have tried to take them down in atleast five different games (Yoshi's Story, Island, Island DS, Mario World, Mario Sunshine). --[[User:Bentendo|Bentendo]] 11:23, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm going to remove Petey Pirahna from the list of major members, because he was never proven to be part of the Koopa Troop. [[User:MarioFan9999|MarioFan9999]] 10:23, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Mario sunshine, NSMB, Super Princess Peach.... in all those games, he was working for Bowser. I think it's safe to say he's in the Koopa troop.[[User:GreenKoopa|GreenKoopa]] - [[User talk:GreenKoopa|Comments or questions?]]

== Bowser Baddies ==
I think that the Bowser Baddies are just the crew of the koopa cruiser. they were never called otherwise afterwards. - Senor Luigi

== Dry Bowser ==

Since Dry Bowser is really just undead Bowser, Is it really necessary to list Dry Bowser as a seperate member? Hence, I will remove Dry Bowser from the list.

Supa Koopa

== what is the koopa troop called in bowser inside story super mario galexy or any other new games? ==

--[[User:Raushad|Raushad]] 16:52, 13 January 2010 (EST)

== I guess it's the Koopa Troop in recent games. In some games, the Koopa Troop is not mentioned, but they are still the Koopa Troop. -Scorpion999

== Request to seperate. ==
I would like to request making Koopa Kingdom, which currently redirects to here, into its own article. I was looking for info on it, and I had to sort it out of this page. I'm kinda new here, though, and I don't feel confident doing it myself. Besides, I'd like to see what others think about this first. Thanks! [[User:1337star|1337star]] 17:38, 5 February 2010 (EST)
:This page should not really cover every single enemy that has been remotely associated with Bowser anyway. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 08:59, 10 February 2010 (EST)
:Shouldn't Koopa Kingdom redirect to [[Dark Land]]? After all, that is the land Bowser is shown to rule. I'm fairly confident that it actually is the KK (no pun intended). {{unsigned|Stitch99}}
::It should redirect to Dark Land if Dark Land is specifically referred to as the Koopa Kingdom in official sources. Anything else would be speculation (which this subject already has enough of). Besides, Dark Land is far from the only place that Koopa has ruled in the games. Pretty much every game places his castle in a different area, and the ever-changing geography of the entire game world makes it impossible to actually define where a "Koopa Kingdom" would be anyway.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 18:52, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

== Bowser Jr. ==

Shouldn't Bowser Jr. be on "major members." {{User|Lemmy Koopa Fan}}
:He's one of the supreme leaders. {{User:Reversinator/sig}}

==Kamek a Foe?==

Since when did the Koopa Troop fight Kamek? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but I need to know. {{User|Tails777}}

== Count Bleck ==

I mean he was once supreme leader. Fawful isn't a member of the Koopa Troop, but he is listed under supreme leaders. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:Well, Fawful took total control, but after Bleck brainwashed most of them, Bowser still had followers (in the Bitlands). I don't think Bleck can be considered a supreme leader since he didn't have control over all of the Koopa Troop. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
::Well than neither should smithy or fawful since Bowser always had a small minority of troops loyal to him even when they were in power {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
:::Smithy had control over all but two individuals (if memory serves, they ran shops), I believe. I think the difference lies in the fact that the supreme leaders use the Koopa Troop as their primary attack force. I could be wrong, but I believe Bleck's Army only had a significant amount of the Koopa Troop in Castle Bleck. Everywhere else was primarily populated by new enemies. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
:::::You are wrong Bowser held control over a division of his army who attacked mushroom way, Bowser also Count Bleck held control over the vast percentage of Koopa Troop Forces and if supreme leader means the one who controls the army than he would be supreme leader especially since it appears that the troops that were loyal to him still attack Bowser after he joins the party {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
::::::Yes, but Bowser did not retain that control, losing that amount to Smithy later. Just because Bowser gets attacked after joining the party doesn't mean that those troops serve Bleck; it just means they're programmed to be general enemies. Wouldn't Nastasia technically be supreme leader, not Bleck, considering the former actually does the brainwashing and commanding (e.g. commanding troops to grab Luigi)? {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
:::::::No because she was under orders from Count Bleck to brainwash them {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
::::::::I don't remember her being told to do so. I thought she just told the count that she was going to take care of the stragglers, which she did not out of subservience but out of admiration. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
:::::::::I don't remember any real lines dealing with the issue but i do remember the brainwashed troops saying all hail count bleck so they were followers of him {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
::::::::::Fair enough. It's been about four years since I've touched the game, so my memory isn't what it used to be. {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}

== Koopa Troop Ranks ==

Shouldn't we list the ranks of the highest minions in the Koopa Troop based on what has been shown. Bowser is obviously the leader of the Koopa Troop. Bowser Jr. is second-in-command because he is Bowser's son and a prince and therefore, heir to the throne (Fact). He has also been shown commanding the Koopalings in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and has ordered Kamek to do a task in New Super Mario Bros. U. Kamek is presumably third-in-command since he is the royal family's caretaker(this has been shown), has very high magic skills(more than the Koopalings and regular magikoopas), and is the highest ranked minion since he has been in the Koopa Troop for a long time(from when Bowser was a baby). He has even commanded the Koopa Troop himself during that time. Lastly, the Koopalings would become the next in command being high ranking generals. As Ludwig is the presumed leader of the Koopalings, he would the fourth-in-command of the Koopa Troop.

Before anyone brings up the Super Mario Bros. 3 player's guide saying Ludwig was originally second-in-command, there are two possible reasons for that explanation. It could mean that during that time the Koopalings were still considered Bowser's children and since Bowser Jr. didn't exist yet, Ludwig would be heir to the throne. This has been retconned though. The second reason could be that since the Koopalings are the only ones helping Bowser in that adventure and Kamek was absent, Ludwig by default would have to be second-in-command. I think the first reason is more likely to be true.

What do you guys think? Should we mention the ranks? [[User:Smasher345|Smasher345]]

:I'm totally with you. Everything you typed makes sense, so there should be rankings. {{User:Koopakoolklub/sig}} 17:23, 8 April 2014 (EDT)

== Suggestions ==
I'm thinking we should put a section for usurpers such as Smithy and show a photo of Bowser's insignias from Galaxy among others.--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 22:22, 8 February 2014 (EST)

When is it ever referred to as simply Koopa?--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 16:08, 14 September 2014 (EDT)

== Rename to "Koopa clan"? ==

I believe the most widely-used name is supposed to be the one chosen for articles, and apparently the term "Koopa clan" was used throughout the ''Paper Mario'' games. I think that would make it the most recurring name, but someone may need to double-check on that. I'm fairly certain Koopa Troop is actually just above "Bowser Baddies" (used only in reference to the Koopa Cruiser crew) in terms of usage in official sources. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:55, 13 May 2014 (EDT
:It's [[List of Bowser profiles and statistics#Fortune Street|used]] in Bowser's Fortune Street bio. If one name isn't clearly dominant over the other, most recent wins. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 12:15, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
::Is "Koopa clan" not used in the more-recent 3DS RPGs? If not, then I guess that makes sense. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:25, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
:::I wish I hadn't lost Dream Team. :\ {{User:Misty/sig}} 12:28, 13 May 2014 (EDT)

== What's going on? ==

I understand that people are trying to be practical, but I prefer knowing who's affiliated with the Koopa Troop, what sort of things they use, and what kind of plans they had in the past. Can we please change it back to what it once was?--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 10:58, 4 October 2014 (EDT)
:Glad to see the member thing is restored, but why are the Koopa Kids listed as leaders? If they are, then shouldn't Kammy be in there, too?--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 19:19, 27 October 2014 (EDT)
::How about we make a header for the Koopa Troop like with the games that lists the affiliates, locations, and such?--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1: user and writer]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 20:09, 1 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Example? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:10, 1 September 2015 (EDT)
::::The kind that's show at the bottom of this http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Ribbon_Army if it's not too much of a problem.--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1: user and writer]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 09:29, 3 September 2015 (EDT)
:::::We've got something similar for games and Bowser's family.--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1: user and writer]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 19:45, 3 September 2015 (EDT)
::::::Such as that miscellaneous Koopa thing at the bottom of [[Wendy_O._Koopa]]'s article.--[[User:Ladies-Man1|Ladies-Man1: user and writer]] ([[User talk:Ladies-Man1|talk]]) 11:47, 14 November 2015 (EST)

==Are in Japan ''Turtle Tribe'' (「カメ族」) and ''Koopa Corps'' (「クッパ軍団」) the same thing?==
I just found this line in Bowser's bio on the ''Super Mario Memorial Book'' on page 59:<br />

「クッパ軍団を率いる巨大なカメ族の大魔王にしてマリオの宿命のライバル。」<br />

Now, I'm having many trouble trying to translate this, but it seems to suggest that the ''Koopa Corps'' (「クッパ軍団」) lead the ''Turtle Tribe'' (「カメ族」). Am I wrong? What is the correct translation for this line? What is the relationship between ''Turtle Tribe'' and ''Koopa Corps'' suggeted by this line?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:41, 11 January 2016 (EST)
:My rough take on the translation is that Bowser is the Great Demon King of the Turtle Tribe who commands the Koopa Corps. In this intepretation, Koopa Corps would be Bowser's faction of the Turtle Tribe. Or something like that, I'm not completely sure. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 11:39, 11 January 2016 (EST)
:Now that I've taken a closer look at this, it seems my original intepretation isn't too far off. In case I have translated the part 「''[クッパ軍団を率いる]''巨大なカメ族の大魔王」 correctly, in English it's something like this: "The huge, Great Demon King of the Turtle Tribe ''[who commands the Koopa Corps]''". So ultimately, クッパ軍団 and カメ族 are different things. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 14:19, 26 February 2016 (EST)
::Thanks! We should probably correct the main page, then. It will be interesting to see if in the future this distinction will lead to something.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:24, 26 February 2016 (EST)

== Peach a member? ==

Since when was Princess Peach ever a member of the Koopa Troop?[[Special:Contributions/174.52.54.159|174.52.54.159]] 14:39, 20 March 2017 (EDT)
:For the same reason Mario is listed as one: They and Bowser team up during games like ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]'' and ''[[Super Paper Mario]]'', making them "honorary Koopa Troop members". {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:42, 20 March 2017 (EDT)

That makes no sense at all {{User|Gamemaster111234}} 14:59, 3 December 2017 (EST)
:Bowser himself has stated that Mario and Peach were members of the Koopa Troop. Seeing as Bowser is the leader of said troop, it falls to him to decide who his members are, even if it's just temporary. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:05, 3 December 2017 (EST)

== The structure of the Koopa Troop according to the ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'' ==
The ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'', published in 1991, includes {{media link|SMCE pages 88 89.png|on pages 88 and 89}} the structure of the Koopa Troop. There are of course some parts still stated nowadays, such as the Turtle Tribe leading the Koopa Troop as you can see [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Are in Japan Turtle Tribe (「カメ族」) and Koopa Corps (「クッパ軍団」) the same thing?|in the discussion above]], in general however this information is outdated, with the ''Royal Family'' no longer existing as such (in current Japanese material it is not mentioned at all and, as a consequence,[[Bowser Jr.]] and Bowser aren't stated to be part of it, back then it was referred to Bowser, the [[Koopalings]] and, before ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'', [[Blue Bowser]]) and [[Kamek]] is missing, since [[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island|Yoshi's Island]] was yet to be released. Do you think we should add it nonetheless, maybe in its own section to separate it from the current depiction of the Koopa Troop?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:39, 11 April 2017 (EDT)
:The Koopa Troop article needs a major rewriting, anyway. I'm all for splitting the information between past and current renditions. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:56, 11 April 2017 (EDT)

== Luigi ==

I know it says Luigi isn't considered part of the Koopa Troop when he and Bowser work together in Super Paper Mario, however Bowser "hires" Luigi into his forces in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga]]'' in a similar way to how he considered his SMRPG teammates minions I suppose. So I think if Mario counts as a (former) member Luigi should too then, correct? Or is there another reason why Luigi isn't included? --{{User:Fawfulfan64/sig}} 21:29, 27 July 2017 (EDT)
:It's less that he hired him and more that Luigi was confused for one of Bowser's minions and got dragged along. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 21:33, 27 July 2017 (EDT)

==Removing "Mario", "Peach", and the one-off RPG guys from the infobox==
Personally, I think these entries are not infobox-worthy information. For something as large and as expansive as the Koopa Troop, the infobox is used mostly for general information. For starters, we don't add Yoshi's Island bosses as "members", despite being technically considered as one. In addition, since they were only temporary members, not permanent, unlike the rest of the entries on the list, I think being described as is in the article is better than leaving them in the infobox. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:03, 3 December 2017 (EST)
:While I agree, it should be noted that the page is currently sporting a rewrite tag. Bearing that in mind, it might be better to just get the overhaul going before losing too much sleep over the details of a flawed page that might not even exist for much longer in this form.
:But really, if there exists contradictory/contextually irrelevant information between games, like the Yoshi's Island example and now the SMRPG thing, maybe those games should have their own separate instance of a member list alltogether instead of trying to make the top one fit all. - {{User:Edofenrir/sig}} 15:36, 3 December 2017 (EST)
::The problem is that currently the Koopa Troop is just a generic term to indicate Bowser's army. The only definite structure that it had is the one of that official 1991 book which ironically still seems to be the source of the current official material and even the most recent RPGs, if the ''Super Mario Pia'', ''Paper Mario: Color Splash'' and ''Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser'' are an indication. If you want, I can provide the translation that {{User|2257}} made of those pages in this talk page so we have at least an idea of Nintendo's old memos on the Koopa Troop. The chart is old, though, and Nintendo seems to rather prefer to maintain the troop undefined so changes can be made without particular restrictions. The Koopa Troop is Bowser's army, everything else is pretty much inconsistent. I'd even argue about how much Bowser Jr. is the leader of the Koopa Troop in ''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle''. If it were for me I'd rather not list the members at all, we're trying to define what Nintendo is no longer trying to clearly define since the '90s - the classification of the enemies was evidently missing in both the ''Super Mario Pia '' and the  ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 16:11, 3 December 2017 (EST)

== Bowser's Minions ==

So I go to search up Bowser's Minions (I wanted to get to this article), and it redirects me to M&L: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. A) Why? B) Shouldn't we make a disambugation page if that's really how we want it? {{unsigned|Lord Junior}}
:This isn't really the sort of thing that warrants a disambiguation page. I believe the SS+BM page takes priority for the redirect because it's part of the game's name. Besides, there is an about template on that page which leads to the Koopa Troop page which I think is good enough. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 09:26, July 7, 2021 (EDT)

==Turtle Tribe in relation to Koopa Troop==
The boundary between the Turtle Tribe and Koopa Troop is something that's come up on this very talk page [[#Are in Japan Turtle Tribe (「カメ族」) and Koopa Corps (「クッパ軍団」) the same thing?|several]] [[#The structure of the Koopa Troop according to the Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia|times]], but not much has come of it. I have this idea: why not just keep the "Turtle Tribe" info on the Koopa species article? I think Turtle Tribe basically serves the same purpose as the turtle species article, with turtle enemies and non-tribe members together both being part of Bowser's army. The names in other languages also split between both articles, which violates [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]]. There's no other name for the Koopa species as a whole in many languages. We'd trim and move the Turtle Tribe info from Koopa Troop and into the Koopa species article, and turn Turtle Tribe into a redirect for the Koopa species. How does that sound? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:32, October 18, 2021 (EDT)
:Yes, I agree that the closest to the "Turtle Tribe" concept in the West is the concept of the "Koopas". Even though one is a tribe that also leads Bowser's Army and the other is more a biological concept grouping related turtle species, at this point I don't see Nintendo of America adopting the "Turtle Tribe" term and dropping the "Koopa" term - there's not a strong reason to do so after all, the "Koopa" term is more than adequate to fit the stories of the main games and even of the various spin-offs. In this sense it's interesting to see how in some languages the "Koopa" term became the name of the Koopa Troopas, with Bowser still being the king of the Koopas: it shows how hardly essential are these concepts in the games and why we have troubles finding the proper terms in the various languages.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 17:15, October 18, 2021 (EDT)
::I support this as well. Another thing I wanted to bring up is since "Koopa" is not a singular "species," should that article's identifier be changed to "tribe," as it is both initially described in SMB's western manual and how it is still described in Japanese? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:04, October 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::I think "Koopa clan" is still in use semiregularly... What's the better word to use? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 02:06, October 19, 2021 (EDT)

==Name usage==
What games has the name "Koopa Troop" been used in, specifically? I know the term originates from Super Mario RPG, but aside from that and Fortune Street (which has a very very liberal localization, IIRC references to things like Rudy and the Black Jewel aren't at all present in Japanese), I can't seem to find any other uses of it. Trying to look into things to see if this article might need a name change due to that term rarely being used but it's a bit hard to find what term was used where. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 03:33, October 22, 2022 (EDT)
:It was used in [[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 06:35, October 22, 2022 (EDT)
::Do you remember where it was used there at all? Been looking around and can't seem to find the line. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 22:57, October 22, 2022 (EDT)
:::In the ''Bowser Jr.'s Journey'' mode during the cutscene after [[Extra Spice]], Bowser Jr. says "Let's show them what the Koopa Troop can do". {{User:Swallow/sig}} 03:40, October 23, 2022 (EDT)
::::Since the name is used frequently across this site despite its infrequent usage in the ''Mario'' franchise, I think we should add sources for when the name is used. Anyone else in agreement? [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 18:49, November 11, 2023 (EST)

==Super Mario RPG==
Should we list Mokura, Gu Goomba, Terra Cotta and Malakoopas as members? Bowser summons a Mokura for Poison Gas and Gu Goombas, Terra Cottas and Malakoopas are former members who defected to Smithy's side but are scared of Bowser and run away if he's in fights with them. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 21:07, March 27, 2023 (EDT)

==Rename==
{{talk}}
Judging by the [[Scrapbook (Super Mario RPG for Nintendo Switch)|scrapbook]] in Super Mario RPG's remake, it seems the "Koopa Troop" is being renamed to "Bowser's Minions", the same term used in, er, Bowser's Minions. I'm thinking it will soon be time to move this page, if it isn't already, unless there is a recent usage of the "Koopa Troop" name I'm forgetting. But even then, it seems like the new name is here to stay. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 20:26, November 3, 2023 (EDT)
:The most recent usage of the name "Koopa Troop" that I'm aware of is Bowser Jr.'s Journey from 2019. Bowser Jr. says it in the scene after [[Extra Spice]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 20:39, November 3, 2023 (EDT)
::''Super Mario RPG'' invented the "Koopa Troop" term in the first place, but it has also at least been used in ''[[List of Bowser profiles and statistics#Fortune Street|Fortune Street]]'', ''[[List of Bowser profiles and statistics#Mario Party 9|Mario Party 9]]'', ''[[Super Mario Run#Enemies|Super Mario Run]]'', and ''[[List of Bowser Jr. quotes#Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020 (Nintendo Switch)|Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020]]''. I would urge comparing the Japanese text later to see if the same phrase is used or if it has been updated there too. Also consider that "Bowser's Minions" also referred to the Koopalings for a time, so it might still be better as a disambig. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:19, November 11, 2023 (EST)
:::I think moving it to "Bowser's Minions" is pretty necessary in this case, given we use the "most recent name" precedent for terms that have long been referred to by other names (see [[Maw-Ray]]), and the fact that usage of "Koopa Troop" is somewhat infrequent. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 14:17, November 16, 2023 (EST)
::::Confirmed: in the remake's Japanese text, the term is「クッパぐんだん」(''Kuppa Gundan''), just like the original game. Also, BubbleRevolution: the recent name rule is not absolute when there's room to invoke exceptions, such as the aforementioned identical name shared with the Koopalings, and it should be noted that Bowser's Minions is also pretty infrequent. I personally prefer the disambig solution for now. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:50, November 18, 2023 (EST)
:::::As much as I like the term "Koopa Troop", personally I'm concerned its usage in games since the original ''Super Mario RPG'' are mostly cases of citogenesis. Despite being used in that game beforehand, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that our usage of that term on the wiki popularized it. Notably all the later games that term has been used in came out after we put ourselves on the map as a wiki, so to speak. Additionally, ''Fortune Street'' and ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020'' were both localized by third parties who would have more reason to reference wikis, and there's evidence of wiki influence elsewhere in ''Fortune Street'''s localization ([[Rudy]] being referred to as "Rudy the Clown" with that capitalization, as his page was formerly titled). Although ''Mario Party 9'', ''Super Mario Run'' and ''Bowser Jr.'s Journey'' were localized internally at [[Nintendo Treehouse]], there's evidence in another game that someone there has referenced us at least once: the use of "Ghost" to refer to [[Polterpiranha]]s (along with arguably the use of the term [[Nipper Dandelion]]) in Piranha Plant's Palutena's Guidance conversation in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]''. Anyway, since most of the uses of the term "Koopa Troop" since the original ''Super Mario RPG'' have been in some rather throwaway flavor text and lines of dialogue, it's possible that when the ''Super Mario RPG'' remake's localization rolled around, the term was given closer scrutiny and deemed outdated, hence the change. "Bowser's Minions", as OP stated, was used previously in the localization of ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions]]'' (including its title, which I feel should hold some weight). In Japanese the equivalent is「クッパぐんだん」(''Kuppa Gundan'') as usual, so I do think the intent is for it to be the modern localization of the term. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 13:23, November 19, 2023 (EST)
::::::Should somebody make a TPP for this? Really feel like this should be moved. {{User:Biggestman/sig}} 15:30, November 19, 2023 (EST)
:::::::Huh? It seems it HAS been moved. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:39, November 19, 2023 (EST)
::::::::I'm a bit conflicted on this, but I've moved it back until a consensus is reached. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:07, November 19, 2023 (EST)
:::::::::I'd also advocate a rename to "Bowser's Minions" on the same grounds of possible citogenesis as PaperSplash, but we should start a proposal for this. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 13:02, November 20, 2023 (EST)
::::::::::If citogenesis was avoided in the ''Super Mario RPG'' remake, shouldn't this also apply to "Mini Goomba", which should be using its older name? Outside of that and Bowser's Minions, the remake's localization almost seems like it was designed in a 90's vacuum, as if it was made with the mindset of furthering precisely what the original translation set out to do. But at any rate, I agree to putting it to a proposal. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:13, November 20, 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Why would Mini Goomba be using the older name? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:42, November 20, 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::I'd probably employ a wait and see approach. The Super Mario RPG remake introduces a bit of a gnarl how to approach some subjects but IMO jury's still out if they're really the kind of game to rely on for broader localization rules. {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:52, November 21, 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I don't entirely agree with the idea of the remake's localization being done in a "90's vacuum", but that's neither here nor there. And I wouldn't call "Mini Goomba" citogenesis; the new name originated from official sources and it was actually ''us'' that were slow to update the wiki to reflect it. Same with "Lava Bubble" as well (I know that name was used as far back as ''Super Mario World'' but it was far from standardized at the time). I also don't see how we would benefit from a "wait and see" approach. They went out of their way to change every instance of the term "Koopa Troop" in the game it originated in. To me, the writing is clearly on the wall. What more evidence do we need?  [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 01:39, November 22, 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::: I agree. It's clearly a new name and Minions was already used in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga & Bowser's Minions. And no, Mini Goomba is not citogenesis either. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:02, November 23, 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::::And Koopa Troop was used right in the next ''Mario & Luigi'' remake (though it also used Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies). Though honestly, now that I think about it, I think "Bowser's Minions" ''is'' a direct carryover of the Koopalings. Wasn't the first ''Mario & Luigi'' remake the first game to have Nintendo of Europe reunify the Koopaling name? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:17, November 23, 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::::Paper Jam did. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 09:23, November 23, 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::::::Right, ''Paper Jam''. Looking at the [[list of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam quotes|quotes page]] shows that they may have started redistributing the phrase "Bowser's minions" there to refer to Bowser's army. Hmm. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:43, November 23, 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::::: It should also be noted that while BJJ has Bowser Jr. saying the "Koopa Troop" in a cutscene, Bowser (Melee)'s description says "Minions" [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:04, November 24, 2023 (EST)
Personally unsure on this at the moment. [[User:RosalinaFanboi777|RosalinaFanboi777]] ([[User talk:RosalinaFanboi777|talk]]) 13:51, November 30, 2023 (EST)<br><br>
I think Bowser's Minions would be a more fitting name. It describes them much better. Bowser hasn't been referred to strictly as "Koopa" in the west since Mario 3. [[User:Mikan-chan|Mikan-chan]] ([[User talk:Mikan-chan|talk]]) 09:05, December 2, 2023 (EST)

== Hear me out: Their motive ==

In Paper Mario, Kammy Koopa states that the Koopas' motive is to get revenge on those who have treated them poorly, and I quote: "Your subjects are so upset because their wishes aren't being granted! How delightful! They deserve it for the way they've treated us Koopas!" Does she mean the way the Mushroom people treated the Koopas for attacking their kingdom in the first place or were the Mushroom people responsible for the Koopas' attacks on their kingdom? {{unsigned|Jackjolt1}}
:I always was curious about that line, actually. I do wonder what the original Japanese line says, if it better explains whether they are retaliating for some offscreen thing or just want revenge for being foiled in previous games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:28, November 29, 2023 (EST)
::You know, i've been wondering about that for a while now. Hopefully the Japanese version answers that question. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 00:06, November 30, 2023 (EST)
:::I looked it up, she says (as long as I haven't misspelled something):
:::ねがいごとが かなわなくなって キノコワールドにすむ れんちゅうもさぞかし こまっておる じゃろうて
:::いいきみじゃ
:::いままで われら カメいちぞくを じゃまものあつかい しおってからに
:::As for what that last sentence means, I dunno, something to do with treating the turtle tribe as monsters? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 06:23, November 30, 2023 (EST)
::::More like treating them as a nuisance. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 17:20, November 30, 2023 (EST)
::::Translation anyone? [[User:Jackjolt1|Jackjolt1]] ([[User talk:Jackjolt1|talk]]) 21:46, December 3, 2023 (EST)
:::::It's roughly the same as the English line. Of note is it uses "kame-ichizoku" (turtle tribe), meaning "Koopas" in this case refers to [[Koopa (species)|all the turtles]] rather than the Koopa Troop. Here's a rough translation:
:::::''The children of the Mushroom World are in trouble because their wishes can no longer be fulfilled.''
:::::''Such good luck!''
:::::''Until now, the Turtle Tribe has been treated as a nuisance.''
::::::So does this refer to the way the Mushroom people treated all Koopas for attacking the Mushroom Kingdom in the first place or for an offscreen action before that? [[User:Jackjolt1|Jackjolt1]] ([[User talk:Jackjolt1|talk]]) 22:27, December 3, 2023 (EST)
:::::[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:18, December 3, 2023 (EST)
@@ Line 113: / Line 113: @@
 == The structure of the Koopa Troop according to the ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'' ==
-The ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'', published in 1991, includes {{file link|SMCE pages 88 89.png|on pages 88 and 89}} the structure of the Koopa Troop. There are of course some parts still stated nowadays, such as the Turtle Tribe leading the Koopa Troop as you can see [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Are in Japan Turtle Tribe (「カメ族」) and Koopa Corps (「クッパ軍団」) the same thing?|in the discussion above]], in general however this information is outdated, with the ''Royal Family'' no longer existing as such (in current Japanese material it is not mentioned at all and, as a consequence,[[Bowser Jr.]] and Bowser aren't stated to be part of it, back then it was referred to Bowser, the [[Koopalings]] and, before ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'', [[Blue Bowser]]) and [[Kamek]] is missing, since [[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island|Yoshi's Island]] was yet to be released. Do you think we should add it nonetheless, maybe in its own section to separate it from the current depiction of the Koopa Troop?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:39, 11 April 2017 (EDT)
+The ''Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia'', published in 1991, includes {{media link|SMCE pages 88 89.png|on pages 88 and 89}} the structure of the Koopa Troop. There are of course some parts still stated nowadays, such as the Turtle Tribe leading the Koopa Troop as you can see [[Talk:Koopa Troop#Are in Japan Turtle Tribe (「カメ族」) and Koopa Corps (「クッパ軍団」) the same thing?|in the discussion above]], in general however this information is outdated, with the ''Royal Family'' no longer existing as such (in current Japanese material it is not mentioned at all and, as a consequence,[[Bowser Jr.]] and Bowser aren't stated to be part of it, back then it was referred to Bowser, the [[Koopalings]] and, before ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'', [[Blue Bowser]]) and [[Kamek]] is missing, since [[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island|Yoshi's Island]] was yet to be released. Do you think we should add it nonetheless, maybe in its own section to separate it from the current depiction of the Koopa Troop?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:39, 11 April 2017 (EDT)
 :The Koopa Troop article needs a major rewriting, anyway. I'm all for splitting the information between past and current renditions. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:56, 11 April 2017 (EDT)
@@ Line 149: / Line 149: @@
 ==Rename==
+{{talk}}
 Judging by the [[Scrapbook (Super Mario RPG for Nintendo Switch)|scrapbook]] in Super Mario RPG's remake, it seems the "Koopa Troop" is being renamed to "Bowser's Minions", the same term used in, er, Bowser's Minions. I'm thinking it will soon be time to move this page, if it isn't already, unless there is a recent usage of the "Koopa Troop" name I'm forgetting. But even then, it seems like the new name is here to stay. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 20:26, November 3, 2023 (EDT)
 :The most recent usage of the name "Koopa Troop" that I'm aware of is Bowser Jr.'s Journey from 2019. Bowser Jr. says it in the scene after [[Extra Spice]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 20:39, November 3, 2023 (EDT)
@@ Line 167: / Line 168: @@
 ::::::::::::::::Paper Jam did. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 09:23, November 23, 2023 (EST)
 :::::::::::::::::Right, ''Paper Jam''. Looking at the [[list of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam quotes|quotes page]] shows that they may have started redistributing the phrase "Bowser's minions" there to refer to Bowser's army. Hmm. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:43, November 23, 2023 (EST)
-::::::::::::::::::Well, yes, ''Paper Jam'' used "Bowser's Minions" as a translations for 「クッパ軍団」, you can see this by comparing Starlow's line [https://youtu.be/8ykRcEIwHX4?si=TRtRZgWM14g5MGe0&t=1540 here] with the [https://youtu.be/9V3e33RwAO8?si=3a1MYEaFepTx1I0N&t=1455 corresponding line in Japanese]. It's worth noting how "Koopa Troop" is a literal translation of "Kuppa gundan", with the caveat that "Kuppa" was translated as "Koopa" when the corresponding Western term should have been "Bowser". In this sense the new translation is more in line with the Western terminology, with the caveat that "Bowser's Minions" itself was the term used for the Koopalings in British English before the reintroduction of the "Koopalings" term - that happened in Paper Jam, by the way, which means that in terms of script there is no internal ambiguity.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:57, December 9, 2023 (EST)
-:::::::::::::::::::All right, that convinces me that "Bowser's Minions" isn't a one-off/mistake, so I can agree to a move - as long as we keep track of the previous names used at the time, that is. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:53, December 10, 2023 (EST)
 ::::::::::::::::: It should also be noted that while BJJ has Bowser Jr. saying the "Koopa Troop" in a cutscene, Bowser (Melee)'s description says "Minions" [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:04, November 24, 2023 (EST)
 Personally unsure on this at the moment. [[User:RosalinaFanboi777|RosalinaFanboi777]] ([[User talk:RosalinaFanboi777|talk]]) 13:51, November 30, 2023 (EST)<br><br>
@@ Line 189: / Line 188: @@
 :::::''Such good luck!''
 :::::''Until now, the Turtle Tribe has been treated as a nuisance.''
+::::::So does this refer to the way the Mushroom people treated all Koopas for attacking the Mushroom Kingdom in the first place or for an offscreen action before that? [[User:Jackjolt1|Jackjolt1]] ([[User talk:Jackjolt1|talk]]) 22:27, December 3, 2023 (EST)
 :::::[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:18, December 3, 2023 (EST)
-::::::So does this refer to the way the Mushroom people treated all Koopas for attacking the Mushroom Kingdom in the first place or for an offscreen action before that? [[User:Jackjolt1|Jackjolt1]] ([[User talk:Jackjolt1|talk]]) 22:27, December 3, 2023 (EST)
-:::::::No way of knowing, unfortunately. If I had to hazard a guess, though, the "treating as a nuisance" implies it's because the Koopas keep invading. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:29, December 3, 2023 (EST)
-== Rename proposal ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|18-0|rename}}
-Time to get right down to it. Per the above discussion, the original Super Mario RPG was the first time the "Koopa Troop" name was used. However, it is a game that's pretty notorious for lots of translation disrepancies, further evidenced by Mister Wu's comment about it being a possible transliteration. In the game's remake, this was one of many names changed, this case to "Bowser's Minions" as has been used in many prior games way more often than "Koopa Troop". Although there have been several other games that used "Koopa Troop", the latest (that I'm aware of) being [[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey]] in one line of dialogue, I think by this point "Bowser's Minions" has by far become the more recognisable name.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Swallow}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': January 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{User|Swallow}} I was on the fence myself, but now leaning towards this.
-#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal and my comment above.
-#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
-#{{User|Camwoodstock}} By this point, this seems to be Nintendo's preferred name for Bowser's army. If the fact that the weird side-mode in the Superstar Saga was literally named after them and was called ''Bowser's Minions'' didn't clue us in, the fact that they renamed them in the SMRPG remake to Bowser's Minions when that game was the original thing to popularize the "Koopa Troop" nickname definitely sells it for us. ;P
-#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal
-#{{User|Biggestman}} Per all. I never liked when names were only 1 letter off from other names anyways.
-#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all. That moment you search Koopa Troop and click the first page it shows, but it is in fact Koopa Troopa may well be the worst moment ever.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Koopa Troop is a more unique name, but in the end, Bowser's Minions is more straightforward.
-#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per proposal, Camwoodstock and my own comment about the usage of "Koopa Troop" in later games being a potential case of citogenesis.
-#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all.
-#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Mikan-chan}} Per all.
-#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} I've personally heard the name "Koopa Troop" used more than "Bowser's Minions", but the name "Koopa Troop" is literally one letter off of the Koopa Troopa article, so I vote to change the name for the sake of convenience.
-#{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all.
-#{{User|Zootalo}} Per all.
-#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} It's the name that's currently getting used. Bowser's Minions may be mistaken for the Koopalings but the name Koopa Troop is now getting retired.
-===Oppose===
-===Comments===
-We should say something about the fact that the "Extra Spice" cutscene in BJJ has Bowser Jr. saying "Koopa Troop" but Bowser (Melee)'s description says "Minions". [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:10, December 23, 2023 (EST)
-== About some of them... ==
-Are we sure that enemies such as the Unagi/Maw-Ray or Sushi are directly affiliated to Bowser? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:50, March 20, 2024 (EDT)
-==Redundancy==
-{{talk}}
-There's a gallery with the various members of the Minions...but we also have a table listing the members and member species. Should we delete one? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 00:18, April 8, 2024 (EDT)
-:No, they're both useful. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:30, April 8, 2024 (EDT)
-::Useful or not, some of these galleries are walls of images in their current state, and we should probably make at least some parts of the "Members" section collapsible. I suggest dividing the "Secondary leadership" header into two subheaders—"Recurring", for characters like Boom Boom, King Bob-omb, etc; and "Others", for characters with, say, only one or two appearances in the Koopa Troop/Bowser's Minions. The latter gallery would be collapsible, similar to the history sections on our ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighter lists. Sorting the members in chronological order could also help the galleries appear less scattered. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 12:24, May 6, 2024 (EDT)
-:::I think a lot of the "secondary leadership" should be moved to the "other notable members," as a lot of them aren't actually treated as leaders of a particular group, but rather big guys that are more difficult to fight. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:22, May 6, 2024 (EDT)
-::::Yeah, that makes more sense. If we were to do that, we could make the "Other notable members" section collapsible instead. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:20, May 6, 2024 (EDT)