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| ==Cat Counterparts== | | ==Cat Counterparts== |
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| Since we now have [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/3d_fury_world/index.html full confirmation that it is indeed "cat" every time], I'm wondering if we should go ahead and split these from their bases. The situation seems comparable with the "bean" versions of recurring enemies in ''Superstar Saga'', among the many, many, many other examples of similar things that basically only affect how the counterpart looks. The only real question is what to do in cases where there's already a "cat" version in the base game as well as in the new mode, which from what I recall begins and ends with [[Cat Goomba]]. I guess it could be "Cat Goomba (Lake Lapcat)" if they aren't going to just keep merged - note that the web page does not list Cat Goomba on the Fury World list, implying they consider it the same as the one in the base game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:21, January 23, 2025 (EST) | | Since we now have [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/3d_fury_world/index.html full confirmation that it is indeed "cat" every time], I'm wondering if we should go ahead and split these from their bases. The situation seems comparable with the "bean" versions of recurring enemies in ''Superstar Saga'', among the many, many, many other examples of similar things that basically only affect how the counterpart looks. The only real question is what to do in cases where there's already a "cat" version in the base game as well as in the new mode, which from what I recall begins and ends with [[Cat Goomba]]. I guess it could be "Cat Goomba (Lake Lapcat)" if they aren't going to just keep merged - note that the web page does not list Cat Goomba on the Fury World list, implying they consider it the same as the one in the base game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:21, January 23, 2025 (EST) |
| :I Personally don't really think they ought to be split. With the exception of the [[Cat Goomba]] and [[Cat Bullet Bill]], who are the same enemies from 3D World, every single cat enemy is functionally identical to their non-cat counterpart. Its essentially an artstyle difference. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 00:24, January 24, 2025 (EST) | | :I Personally don't really think they ought to be split. With the exception of the [[Cat Goomba]] and [[Cat Bullet Bill]], who are the same enemies from 3D World, every single cat enemy is functionally identical to their non-cat counterpart. Its essentially an artstyle difference. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 00:24, January 24, 2025 (EST) |
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| == Create page for {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}} == | | == Create page for {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}} == |
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| | ===Create page for {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}}=== |
| {{TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| I've been reading the discussion around the topic, although they are recognized as cat counterparts of the normal SM3DW enemies, their only difference is an addition of cat ears and fur, so I think it would be best to create a specific page for these enemies in general and thanks to this group them into a single differentiated article or make Each Enemy It's Own page, the name of this page is simple {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}} | | I've been reading the discussion around the topic, although they are recognized as cat counterparts of the normal SM3DW enemies, their only difference is an addition of cat ears and fur, so I think it would be best to create a specific page for these enemies in general and thanks to this group them into a single differentiated article or make Each Enemy It's Own page, the name of this page is simple {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}} |
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| #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - While most do act the same as normal, there are plenty of examples of variants doing just that - look at all the ''[[Wario World]]'' enemies we split now, for example. Text-wise, these are treated as being the same level of different as the Glohm enemies or Flopside Pit enemies. | | #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - While most do act the same as normal, there are plenty of examples of variants doing just that - look at all the ''[[Wario World]]'' enemies we split now, for example. Text-wise, these are treated as being the same level of different as the Glohm enemies or Flopside Pit enemies. |
| #{{User|Arend}} Per proposal. (Also, can we split the Bowser's Fury Cat Goomba from [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]], while we're at it?) | | #{{User|Arend}} Per proposal. (Also, can we split the Bowser's Fury Cat Goomba from [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]], while we're at it?) |
| #{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Actually, this makes sense. Why shouldn't we split variants with different designs and different names, and that are officially identified as separate on Mario Portal? A similar case would be [[Raving Piranha Plant]], or [[Talk:Hyrule Circuit#Create pages for the Zelda elements, take II|this proposal]] that gave us the likes of [[Deku Baba]] and [[cash]], or Mario Maker's [[Jelectro]]s. Oh, and let's not forget [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.|Pakkun OkaP]]. (Also, based on how Mario Portal presents it, I'd actually oppose splitting the two Cat Goombas.)
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. Either these should be split, or we should do a ton of sweeping merges for [[Tail Bob-omb|the]] [[Tail Boo|utter]] [[Tail Bullet Bill|deluge]] [[Tail Thwomp|of]] [[Big Tail Goomba|tanuki]] [[Tail Goomba|tailed]] [[Tail Bowser|enemies]] from ''3D Land''.
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| ====Don't Create The Page (Oposse)==== | | ====Don't Create The Page (Oposse)==== |
| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'd rather we cover them in their host enemies' pages. ''Wario World'' enemies at least get progressively harder (last I checked) - these are themed skins 1:1 identical to their original selves, much like ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s [[Fall]] enemies.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} To be honest, it feels like the only reason they have "Cat" in the name is for the sake of the "everything is cats" joke. Taking it to mean that they're actually different enemies feels a little silly. It's like if every enemy in the Yoshi's Wooly World was called "Yarn [insert enemy name here]".
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| #{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per LinkTheLefty and Blinker.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide_how_to_handle_the_toy_enemies_from_across_the_Mario_vs._Donkey_Kong_series|the proposal]] that merged the Mario vs. Donkey Kong toy enemies to their base enemies. it's just an aesthetic variation for theming purposes
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| #{{user|PopitTart}} If Green Koopa Troopa and Red Koopa Troopa are stuck together despite being mechanically distinct, then theres absolutely no reason Cat Koopa Troopa should get its own page as a cosmetic reskin. Theres more justification to split the colors of Yoshi than the Cat variants.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per PopitTart. I'll admit, the support reasons are justifiable, but if we're already struggling to find a line with things like Koopa Troopas, Yoshis and Shy Guys, who have on-an-off functionality/statistical differences across multiple different games, these shouldn't be up for discussion just yet with their cosmetic differences.
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| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per PopitTart. Why should we give these enemies articles if they are no different from the base forms beyond looks?
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Purr all.
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| #{{User|RHG1951}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
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| #{{User|Arend}} Secondary option, I do not mind these staying on their regular counterparts' articles since they behave exactly the same anyway (but I still find it weird that the Bowser's Fury Cat Goomba is mered with [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]] when they look more closely and behave exactly like regular Goombas)
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| <s>#{{User|Arend}} Given that these have never been classified as a group, and that said group never even got the name "Cat Enemies", I would rather give each subject its own article instead. I would suggest retitling the proposed article to something like "List of cat variants of enemies in ''Bowser's Fury''", but that would cover nearly every enemy in the entire campaign, which would be redundant. (side note, the Cat Goomba from ''Bowser's Fury'' should NOT be merged with [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]])</s> | | <s>#{{User|Arend}} Given that these have never been classified as a group, and that said group never even got the name "Cat Enemies", I would rather give each subject its own article instead. I would suggest retitling the proposed article to something like "List of cat variants of enemies in ''Bowser's Fury''", but that would cover nearly every enemy in the entire campaign, which would be redundant. (side note, the Cat Goomba from ''Bowser's Fury'' should NOT be merged with [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]])</s> |
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| M'not sure about the Cat Goomba, it's not listed among the "Fury World"/Lapcat enemies on Portal, implying they're meant to be different morphs of the same thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:41, March 8, 2025 (EST) | | M'not sure about the Cat Goomba, it's not listed among the "Fury World"/Lapcat enemies on Portal, implying they're meant to be different morphs of the same thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:41, March 8, 2025 (EST) |
| ::I think the biggest difference between these goombas is that one is called cat goomba because it is powered by the cat bell, while the other is called cat goomba because it has characteristics of a cat, hence the same name but different characteristics, such as color, way of attack, etc.--[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 12:46, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::Well I mean, "Cat Goomba" isn't even listed as a Lapcat enemy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:01, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| {{@|LinkTheLefty}} - Given Pidgit Bill, I'm surprised we merged those. Granted, that's been a long time. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:01, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :That was an [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/42#Merge post-Special Zone enemies or Split Goomba (SMW:SMA2) and Pokey (SMW:SMA2)|ooooold proposal]], but it still mostly tracks due to the Goomba, Pokey, and "Para Mask Koopa". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:11, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::Given we now know from the giga-leak there was intended to be differences for at least Gumba there in the original that didn't come to pass, that may need re-examined. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:22, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::That possibility was known about for [[tcrf:Super Mario World (SNES)#Post-Special World Galoomba|a while]] too, but I don't see how it affects much. If the enemies re-split, then I think using the ''Super Mario Advance 2'' names with 'Fall' identifiers across the board would keep things more organized than using the unique ''Super Mario World'' names. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:40, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Did SMA2 rollback the previously renamed ones' names? Or did it just not have the cast-roll at all? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:42, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::[[Tourist Tips|Yep]], ''Super Mario Advance 2'' rolled back Jumping Pumpkin Plant, Pidgit Bill and Mask Koopas in all regions, matching the Super Famicom version. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:45, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| {{@|Blinker}} - [[Frame Boo|About]] [[Frame Chomp|that]]... ...and that's not getting into the "paper" enemies in ''Paper Jam'', which, while differences in behavior are sometimes present, they are generally minute. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:42, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :The Frame enemies do have unique properties compared to their normal counterparts, and the Paper enemies at least appear alongside non-Paper enemies and, as you mention, often have differences in behavior. These don't have anything aside from a "Cat" prefix and a small visual difference. Aside from the names, they feel more like the origami enemies from The Origami King (although at least those appear alongside their normal counterparts). [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:54, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::I don't really understand the relevance of the Yoshi's Woolly World point. The enemies in that game ''aren't'' called "Yarn X", as the [[Scrapbook Theater|in-game enemy list]] shows, and they also don't appear in the same game as the "normal" enemies (whereas Bowser's Fury is part of the same game as 3D World). And for the Origami King comparison, why should we ignore the different names of the cat enemies? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:49, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::Nevermind that. The Mario vs Donkey Kong enemies eviemaybe brought up are a better example of what I was trying to say. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:12, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Are they? I can still make the same counterarguments that they are generally the only instances of those enemies in the game and not named differently or identified separately, unlike these cats. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:46, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::Regarding Origami King, the origami enemies are the only kind you fight and are simply named "Goomba", the non-origami versions are NPCs only. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 21:43, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::I don't see what that changes? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:14, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
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| {{@|PopitTart}} - Those aren't always mechanically distinct, though, and them being named differently from each other is also not consistent. [[File:SMB3 Koopa Troopa credits.png]] <- And who is this? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:51, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :Usually but-not-always mechanically distinct is still more than never mechanically distinct. And given the color usage elsewhere in ''SMB3'''s credits, that seems to be a Red Koopa.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 15:38, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::[[File:SMB3 Goomba tipped credits.png]] <- Considering ''this'' guy also in the credits, I'm not buying that that fellow is red. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:05, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| {{@|Camwoodstock}} all of those Tail enemies you link to are mechanically differentiated from their base forms. This is already consistent with how [[Cat Goomba]], [[Cat Bullet Bill]], and [[Meowser]] are covered. The Cat forms in ''Bowser's Fury'' which this proposal refers to are a different case.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 16:34, March 8, 2025 (EST)
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| I think this problem is derived from a bigger problem, the fusion of enemies of the same species but of different color/appearance, I will have to make a future proposal to fix this once and for all.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]])
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| : The only problem is that the enemies of the same species but of different color/appearance are treated as exactly the same with no differentiation whatsoever. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:29, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::I think we should create pages for enemy variants of different colors, appearances as long as they have a separate name, simple mechanics, or are recognized by Nintendo.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 15:32, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
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| ::: They may be "recognized by Nintendo" but that doesn't change the fact that the enemy variants of different colors are lumped in with their regular ones or have no differences from the regular versions 99.9999% of the time. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:54, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
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