Editing Talk:Bowser's Fury

==Cat Counterparts==
Since we now have [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/3d_fury_world/index.html full confirmation that it is indeed "cat" every time], I'm wondering if we should go ahead and split these from their bases. The situation seems comparable with the "bean" versions of recurring enemies in ''Superstar Saga'', among the many, many, many other examples of similar things that basically only affect how the counterpart looks. The only real question is what to do in cases where there's already a "cat" version in the base game as well as in the new mode, which from what I recall begins and ends with [[Cat Goomba]]. I guess it could be "Cat Goomba (Lake Lapcat)" if they aren't going to just keep merged - note that the web page does not list Cat Goomba on the Fury World list, implying they consider it the same as the one in the base game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:21, January 23, 2025 (EST)
:I Personally don't really think they ought to be split. With the exception of the [[Cat Goomba]] and [[Cat Bullet Bill]], who are the same enemies from 3D World, every single cat enemy is functionally identical to their non-cat counterpart. Its essentially an artstyle difference. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 00:24, January 24, 2025 (EST)
::Again, I float regional and other thematic counterparts in other games, such as the Beanish, Shroob, Microscopic/Health-themed, etc. versions from the ''Mario & Luigi'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:30, January 24, 2025 (EST)
::: Siding with PopitTart. The enemies in Bowser's Fury are the exact same as their regular ones whereas the regional and other thematic counterparts have various differences (e.g. Beanarang Bros, Shroob Rexes). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:06, January 24, 2025 (EST)

The Beanbean Kingdom enemies are not an artstyle difference, they are more unique enemies that often have their own movesets and different statistics from their regular versions. It's also why we've even split Glohm versions of these enemies. The cat enemies in Bowser's Fury behave exactly as the normal version in Super Mario 3D World with the cat features being entirely aesthetic. This is essentially platformer vs RPG here so it is difficult to fully draw this kind of comparison. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 09:31, January 24, 2025 (EST)
:We do, however, split all the paper enemies in ''Paper Jam'', including the ones that don't have a "normal" counterpart in the game, and even then, the only behavioral differences between the "normal" and "paper" types are almost completely aesthetic or "one pauses at a different time." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:53, January 24, 2025 (EST)
::Well, that game has normal enemies existing alongside their paper counterparts, making it abundantly clear that the paper versions are to be seen distinctly. Bowser's Fury is 100% cats. I would mention the actual ''Paper Mario'' games to continue the comparison, where every enemy is inherently paper.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 23:44, January 24, 2025 (EST)
:::They aren't ''named'' differently in the actual ''Paper Mario'' games, and like I said, ''Paper Jam'' had "paper" enemies that didn't have their "normal" counterparts appear, such as [[Swoop]]s. Them appearing as cats (in the side mode) and not as cats (in the main mode) is still them coexisting as separate entities in the game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:02, January 25, 2025 (EST)
::::Paper enemies are not just aesthetic, a lot of them also have different attacks that the regular version doesn't have along with different statistics and are listed seperately for expert challenges, and honestly, them not being named uniquely in the ''Paper Mario'' games doesn't mean shit since it only applies to the one game they're with the normal versions (hence why I recently changed the identifier for [[Paper Mario (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)|Paper Mario]]). Again, you're basing this on how RPG enemies are handled when this case is platformer enemies with aesthetics being the only different, and I'm saying it's how enemies are handled between two different types of game genres so it's best for it to be case-by-case rather than blindly attempt to be consistent with everything and keep digging for comparisons. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 06:15, January 25, 2025 (EST)
:::::Them all having official distinct names and distinct designs should be reason enough, IMO. Otherwise we're going to bloat the Niol section for a single game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:39, January 25, 2025 (EST)
:::::: The Cat enemies may have distinct names and distinct designs but that doesn't change the fact that they still have the exact same attacking patterns. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:02, January 26, 2025 (EST)
:::::::And [[Klomp]] has the same attack pattern as [[Kritter]] while being the exact same thing with a superficial "pirate" theme, and we split it. [[Goombo]] is basically the exact same thing as [[Goomba]] and we split them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:55, January 26, 2025 (EST)
::::::::Personally, I see this as more akin to The Origami King's enemies. I know these have "Cat" in their names, and the folded soldiers just use the same names as the non-folded counterparts, but names aren't everything. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:15, January 26, 2025 (EST)

Since Cat Goombas in Bowser's Fury look and behave differently from Cat Goomas in 3D World, does that mean it should get a separate article then? {{fake link|Cat Goomba (''Bowser's Fury'')}}? {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:13, January 26, 2025 (EST)
:The Cat Goombas in Bowser's Fury do however, behave how regular Goombas usually do in the 3D platformers. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 12:18, January 26, 2025 (EST)
::I brought that up initially. Currently, we list them on Cat Goomba's page, which the Portal thing corroborates by not including Cat Goomba among the Lapcat enemies - implying it's not considered "unique" to that mode, unlike the other cats. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:35, January 26, 2025 (EST)
::Which is also why I'm iffy on moving the ''Bowser's Fury'' info from Goomba to Cat Goomba. Given they're both in the same game, yet one behaves more like a regular Goomba while another constantly pounces, makes me think they were not intended to be the same Cat Goomba (and I think they intentionally made it so, because [[Cat Bullet Bill]] has remained the same across the two campaigns). {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:42, January 26, 2025 (EST)
:::They're ''already'' on the Cat Goomba page, though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:51, January 26, 2025 (EST)

Another thing to remember is that while several enemies may be the same, they're labeled differently or have different models. For instance, Krunchas are stated to be Krushas in pirate gear but they are wider and get mad and storm back and forth if Diddy or Dixie jump on them by themselves which Krushas never did. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 11:51, January 30, 2025 (EST)

== Create page for {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}} ==

{{TPP}}
I've been reading the discussion around the topic, although they are recognized as cat counterparts of the normal SM3DW enemies, their only difference is an addition of cat ears and fur, so I think it would be best to create a specific page for these enemies in general and thanks to this group them into a single differentiated article or make Each Enemy It's Own page, the name of this page is simple {{fake link|Cat Enemies (Bowser's Fury)}}

'''Proposer''': {{User|Sorbetti}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 22, 2025, 23:59 GMT

====Create The Page (Support)====
#{{User|Sorbetti}} Per proposal.

====Create Each Enemy It's Own Page(Support)====
#{{User|Sorbetti}} Per proposal.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - While most do act the same as normal, there are plenty of examples of variants doing just that - look at all the ''[[Wario World]]'' enemies we split now, for example. Text-wise, these are treated as being the same level of different as the Glohm enemies or Flopside Pit enemies.
#{{User|Arend}} Per proposal. (Also, can we split the Bowser's Fury Cat Goomba from [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]], while we're at it?)
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Actually, this makes sense. Why shouldn't we split variants with different designs and different names, and that are officially identified as separate on Mario Portal? A similar case would be [[Raving Piranha Plant]], or [[Talk:Hyrule Circuit#Create pages for the Zelda elements, take II|this proposal]] that gave us the likes of [[Deku Baba]] and [[cash]], or Mario Maker's [[Jelectro]]s. Oh, and let's not forget [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.|Pakkun OkaP]]. (Also, based on how Mario Portal presents it, I'd actually oppose splitting the two Cat Goombas.)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. Either these should be split, or we should do a ton of sweeping merges for [[Tail Bob-omb|the]] [[Tail Boo|utter]] [[Tail Bullet Bill|deluge]] [[Tail Thwomp|of]] [[Big Tail Goomba|tanuki]] [[Tail Goomba|tailed]] [[Tail Bowser|enemies]] from ''3D Land''.

====Don't Create The Page (Oposse)====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'd rather we cover them in their host enemies' pages. ''Wario World'' enemies at least get progressively harder (last I checked) - these are themed skins 1:1 identical to their original selves, much like ''Super Mario World''{{'}}s [[Fall]] enemies.
#{{User|Blinker}} To be honest, it feels like the only reason they have "Cat" in the name is for the sake of the "everything is cats" joke. Taking it to mean that they're actually different enemies feels a little silly. It's like if every enemy in the Yoshi's Wooly World was called "Yarn [insert enemy name here]".
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per LinkTheLefty and Blinker.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide_how_to_handle_the_toy_enemies_from_across_the_Mario_vs._Donkey_Kong_series|the proposal]] that merged the Mario vs. Donkey Kong toy enemies to their base enemies. it's just an aesthetic variation for theming purposes
#{{user|PopitTart}} If Green Koopa Troopa and Red Koopa Troopa are stuck together despite being mechanically distinct, then theres absolutely no reason Cat Koopa Troopa should get its own page as a cosmetic reskin. Theres more justification to split the colors of Yoshi than the Cat variants.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per PopitTart. I'll admit, the support reasons are justifiable, but if we're already struggling to find a line with things like Koopa Troopas, Yoshis and Shy Guys, who have on-an-off functionality/statistical differences across multiple different games, these shouldn't be up for discussion just yet with their cosmetic differences.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per PopitTart. Why should we give these enemies articles if they are no different from the base forms beyond looks?
#{{User|Sdman213}} Purr all.
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary option, I do not mind these staying on their regular counterparts' articles since they behave exactly the same anyway (but I still find it weird that the Bowser's Fury Cat Goomba is mered with [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]] when they look more closely and behave exactly like regular Goombas)

<s>#{{User|Arend}} Given that these have never been classified as a group, and that said group never even got the name "Cat Enemies", I would rather give each subject its own article instead. I would suggest retitling the proposed article to something like "List of cat variants of enemies in ''Bowser's Fury''", but that would cover nearly every enemy in the entire campaign, which would be redundant. (side note, the Cat Goomba from ''Bowser's Fury'' should NOT be merged with [[Cat Goomba|the ''3D World'' one]])</s>

====Comments====
Should be "enemies", not "enemys". {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 11:41, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:Fixed. [[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 12:05, March 8, 2025 (EST)

Wait, is this for a single page or a page for each enemy? I'd prefer the latter, the former would just be this page's enemy section. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:12, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:All signs point to the former. The guy even used {{tem|fake link}} to indicate their proposed article name. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:17, March 8, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Sorbetti}} I appreciate that you have taken the initiative to raise these proposals, but some of them take a lot of work to implement and it often lies on the writer of the proposal themselves to roll out the changes if it passes. Are you sure you want to do all of these at once? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 12:13, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:I am aware of this, however I do not see other people aware of these issues so I take the initiative, although I am not yet an expert in creating pages, however with a little help and instructions I have no problem creating more proposals.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]])

{{@|Sorbetti}} Can I suggest you to add a third option to give each enemy an individual article instead? Rule 17 of [[MarioWiki:Proposals#How to|Proposals]] states you have four days to make changes to yours. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:17, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:Yes, it's already implemented[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]])

M'not sure about the Cat Goomba, it's not listed among the "Fury World"/Lapcat enemies on Portal, implying they're meant to be different morphs of the same thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:41, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::I think the biggest difference between these goombas is that one is called cat goomba because it is powered by the cat bell, while the other is called cat goomba because it has characteristics of a cat, hence the same name but different characteristics, such as color, way of attack, etc.--[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 12:46, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:::Well I mean, "Cat Goomba" isn't even listed as a Lapcat enemy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:01, March 8, 2025 (EST)

{{@|LinkTheLefty}} - Given Pidgit Bill, I'm surprised we merged those. Granted, that's been a long time. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:01, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:That was an [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/42#Merge post-Special Zone enemies or Split Goomba (SMW:SMA2) and Pokey (SMW:SMA2)|ooooold proposal]], but it still mostly tracks due to the Goomba, Pokey, and "Para Mask Koopa". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:11, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::Given we now know from the giga-leak there was intended to be differences for at least Gumba there in the original that didn't come to pass, that may need re-examined. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:22, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:::That possibility was known about for [[tcrf:Super Mario World (SNES)#Post-Special World Galoomba|a while]] too, but I don't see how it affects much. If the enemies re-split, then I think using the ''Super Mario Advance 2'' names with 'Fall' identifiers across the board would keep things more organized than using the unique ''Super Mario World'' names. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:40, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::::Did SMA2 rollback the previously renamed ones' names? Or did it just not have the cast-roll at all? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:42, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::[[Tourist Tips|Yep]], ''Super Mario Advance 2'' rolled back Jumping Pumpkin Plant, Pidgit Bill and Mask Koopas in all regions, matching the Super Famicom version. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:45, March 8, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Blinker}} - [[Frame Boo|About]] [[Frame Chomp|that]]... ...and that's not getting into the "paper" enemies in ''Paper Jam'', which, while differences in behavior are sometimes present, they are generally minute. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:42, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:The Frame enemies do have unique properties compared to their normal counterparts, and the Paper enemies at least appear alongside non-Paper enemies and, as you mention, often have differences in behavior. These don't have anything aside from a "Cat" prefix and a small visual difference. Aside from the names, they feel more like the origami enemies from The Origami King (although at least those appear alongside their normal counterparts). [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:54, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::I don't really understand the relevance of the Yoshi's Woolly World point. The enemies in that game ''aren't'' called "Yarn X", as the [[Scrapbook Theater|in-game enemy list]] shows, and they also don't appear in the same game as the "normal" enemies (whereas Bowser's Fury is part of the same game as 3D World). And for the Origami King comparison, why should we ignore the different names of the cat enemies? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:49, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:::Nevermind that. The Mario vs Donkey Kong enemies eviemaybe brought up are a better example of what I was trying to say. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:12, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::::Are they? I can still make the same counterarguments that they are generally the only instances of those enemies in the game and not named differently or identified separately, unlike these cats. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:46, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::Regarding Origami King, the origami enemies are the only kind you fight and are simply named "Goomba", the non-origami versions are NPCs only. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 21:43, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::::::I don't see what that changes? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:14, March 9, 2025 (EDT)

{{@|PopitTart}} - Those aren't always mechanically distinct, though, and them being named differently from each other is also not consistent. [[File:SMB3 Koopa Troopa credits.png]] <- And who is this? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:51, March 8, 2025 (EST)
:Usually but-not-always mechanically distinct is still more than never mechanically distinct. And given the color usage elsewhere in ''SMB3'''s credits, that seems to be a Red Koopa.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 15:38, March 8, 2025 (EST)
::[[File:SMB3 Goomba tipped credits.png]] <- Considering ''this'' guy also in the credits, I'm not buying that that fellow is red. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:05, March 8, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Camwoodstock}} all of those Tail enemies you link to are mechanically differentiated from their base forms. This is already consistent with how [[Cat Goomba]], [[Cat Bullet Bill]], and [[Meowser]] are covered. The Cat forms in ''Bowser's Fury'' which this proposal refers to are a different case.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 16:34, March 8, 2025 (EST)

I think this problem is derived from a bigger problem, the fusion of enemies of the same species but of different color/appearance, I will have to make a future proposal to fix this once and for all.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]])
: The only problem is that the enemies of the same species but of different color/appearance are treated as exactly the same with no differentiation whatsoever. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:29, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
::I think we should create pages for enemy variants of different colors, appearances as long as they have a separate name, simple mechanics, or are recognized by Nintendo.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 15:32, March 9, 2025 (EDT)
::: They may be "recognized by Nintendo" but that doesn't change the fact that the enemy variants of different colors are lumped in with their regular ones or have no differences from the regular versions 99.9999% of the time. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:54, March 10, 2025 (EDT)