View source for Talk:Boss Bass

From the article:
<blockquote>Boss Bass' are possibly related to the identical-looking [[Big Bertha]].</blockquote>
Identical-looking and possibly related? Is there any reason why we have two articles for two(?) things that look identical? {{User:Time Q/sig}} 15:25, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

:They're kinda differnt. Boss Basses are found above water and leap whereas Big Berthas swim underwater. I think they do kind of attack in the same ways (eating Mario), though, so maybe you could say terrain is the only thing that differs them. {{User:YellowYoshi398/sig}}
When comparing:
<blockquote>A Boss Bass is a huge fish found in Super Mario Bros. 3. They swim '''on the surface of the water''' trying </blockquote>
to
<blockquote>The Big Berthas are a sub-species of Cheep-Cheep that live '''deep in the sea'''.</blockquote>
That is an obvious difference. Big Berthas also spit out [[Baby Cheep]]s, notably, which Boss Basses don't. I think their differences should be stated in the article somewhere. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 16:04, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
:Okay. I basically know nothing about these enemies, I just became skeptical when reading that they look identical and yet are different species. {{User:Time Q/sig}} 16:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
::They technically are the same (full-grown Cheep-Cheep), but with different roles - Big Bertha nest in safe quarters under the sea to mother their young, and Boss Bass are their male counterparts that are active hunters. This is confirmed with their Japanese names - Kyodai Pukupuku ♀ and Kyodai Pukupuku ♂. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 15:44, 27 August 2009 (EDT)

== The illustration of Mario getting attacked by a Boss Bass... ==
... Is that a Boss Bass? Since there is a Baby Cheep in that picture also, which are only found near their mothers. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 15:46, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
:The image is probably a Big Bertha. {{User:Reversinator/sig}}

::It's all right, since the Big Bertha is a female Boss Bass. {{User:Supermariofan14/sig}}
== Japanese Name ==
I noticed that Big Bertha and Boss Bass's Japanese names are listed as Kyodai Pukupuku ♀ and Kyodai Pukupuku ♂. However, the only name I can find on Japanese websites is 巨大プクプク (kyodai pukupuku); no gender icon after it. Wikipedia apparently refers to the underwater version as "子連れ巨大プクプク", but no other sites use that name. Does anyone know where their nameｓ are listed with any such icon?--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 18:54, 15 February 2010 (EST)

:Maybe the icon was just added so people wouldn't get confused, I mean, you can't quite READ that icon. {{User:Supermariofan14/sig}}
::Well, the question I'm asking is where the name is officially listed with that icon though, because if there are no official sources that put a gender icon after the name, we can't do that on the Wiki either, no matter whether or not it can be read.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 11:32, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
:::This brings up a question: are Big Bertha and Boss Bass the same enemy? {{User:Reversinator/sig}}
::::Well, that was the question I was also trying to find the answer to by asking this. If no official source uses a gender icon or any other name difference, they're probably meant to be the same enemy in a slightly different environment. If they do officially have that gender icon as part of their name though, they probably shouldn't be viewed as the same.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 09:10, 28 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::I know this is old, but looking back, I think the source was [http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=181554 this]. It's not necessarily reliable, though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:30, 25 January 2015 (EST)

== Merge Boss Bass with Big Bertha ==

{{TPP}}
What actual differences do these have? They have the same Japanese name, look ''exactly the same with literally no differences whatsoever (even having the same sprite in their original appearance)'', their only major differences are behavior and gender, and that's not even consistent anymore. At this point it's basically "[[Big Bertha]]s always spit [[Baby Cheep]]s, [[Big Bertha#Super Mario 64 DS|except when they don't]], and [[Boss Bass]] are always male, [[Bessie Bass|except when they aren't]]", and it's a confusing, jumbled mess, just look at how many examples aren't even sure which is which. Different colored [[Koopa Troopas]] have more differences than them, as do [[Super Mario Bros. 2]] Pokeys compared to modern ones, but those aren't considered seperate species by most people.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Binarystep}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 6, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

=== Support ===
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per my reasons stated above.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} In ''Super Mario Sunshine'', there are two (well, three) kinds of Cheep Cheeps that have different behaviors; the orange ones and the fiery ones jump and swim, while the pink ones try to drag Mario further to the depths. They are all known as Cheep Cheeps without any unique words or alternative letters to make them different species. In Japan, this is the same with Boss Bass and Big Bertha, but the English ''SMB3'' guide gave them unique names, and that's very likely unreliable localization. So really, how would merging these two be any different from having two enemies with different behavior (and appearance) on the same article when they are universally considered the same enemies?
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} While I dislike that one of these two names will have to chosen for their main title, this is the least that can be done to minimize the arbitrary overlap between the articles. ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' was over twenty-five years ago, and nearly each subsequent appearance of this enemy has shown that their perceived differences are essentially rendered entirely moot, so we can't keep holding them up to the same standards of just one game's supplemental localization material. There may be a certain level of nostalgia associated with both Big Bertha and Boss Bass, but doing otherwise results in unnecessary guesswork.

=== Oppose ===
#{{User|LudwigVon}} They have maybe different gender, but their attack are different, so I oppose to this.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} The fact that both Boss Bass and Big Bertha appear in the SAME GAME to me is a good enough reason to keep them split.
#{{User|Andymii}} While this proposal makes more sense than the other merge proposals, SuperYoshiBros makes a good point- they would obviously be different characters if they both appear in the same game. And yes, their attack pattern is different.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} Different Attack Pattern warrents a seperate page. Stated to be different warrants a seperate page. Appeared seperately in same game with different official name warrants seperate page. Done, I'm out.

=== Comments ===
[[Talk:Cheep_Chomp#Merge_Big_Bertha.2C_Boss_Bass.2C_and_Bubba_with_Cheep_Chomp|We've tried this before with Cheep Chomp and Bubba]] (give it a read if you'd like), and I agree that they're basically the same thing. The difference between Boss Bass and Big Bertha is extremely similar in concept to meek underwater Cheep Cheep and aggressive leaping Cheep Cheep, and the exact appearances of the two aren't even that certain anyway (just look in the Talk Pages and general history). However, there are difficulties reaching a consensus on a topic such as this; for example, if we were to limit a merge to just Boss Bass and Big Bertha, then which name would be used for the resulting article (which is why I proposed it all under the modern, gender-inclusive "Cheep Chomp" banner)? You've got to keep in mind how this affects the surrounding articles, wiki readership, etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 02:15, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
:I'd say to go with the most recent name, which appears to be Boss Bass. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 02:31, 23 March 2015 (EDT)

LudwigVon, Cheep Cheeps attack differently depending on whether you're underwater (in which case they swim back and forth) or near the water (in which case they jump out). Should those be split too? And another thing, the differences that DID exist don't anymore, as shown by how almost every post-SMB3 example has no idea which is which. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 14:42, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
:The attack is important as two kind of enemies who look identical appear in the '''same''' games.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 18:53, 23 March 2015 (EDT)

SuperYoshiBros, the translators aren't perfect, they can make mistakes or inconsistencies, that's happened before. The thing is, there's no benefit to keeping them seperate, considering that pretty much every post-SMB3 example starts with "A Boss Bass (or maybe a Big Bertha)...", proving there aren't any real differences at this point. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 14:42, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
:But why would two enemies with very different behaviors both appearing in the same game having different names be a translation mistake? The point is they were different at one point and should be treated as such. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 18:21, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
::And [[Galoomba]]s were originally the same as Goombas, does that mean they are? Super Mario Bros. 3 is an old game, we should use current knowledge instead of a 25 year old manual. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:59, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
:::The fact that they only have obviously different behavior -''once''- is an indication that it's an outdated benchmark. Even with the help of an accompanying guide to deem which one it is for a particular appearance, their identities are blatantly all over the place. We know this is at the mere whim of the localizers at the time, which is probably part of the reason they were "replaced" by Bubba and Cheep Chomp. Also, the widespread idea that Big Bertha are all female and Boss Bass are exclusively male isn't clearly evident in the Nintendo Power guide they were originally named, and most certainly doesn't apply in other appearances (that being the presence of Baby Cheep - which would be like, say, separating the ''SMRPG'' Lakitu due to it throwing Spikeys rather than Spinys). If the translators had the thought to do the same thing to Cheep Cheep (or were around) in the first game and treated them as "different at one point", we might've had a similar disagreement on whether Cheep-Cheeps and "Leap-Leaps" are the same thing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:12, 23 March 2015 (EDT)

I'd like it if the opposers would answer some questions for me, namely:

* How are these seperate enemies despite only being different species in ONE game, and only according to the English localization, which has been incorrect several times in the past?
* How is a translation from 25 years ago still relevant even though it was inconsistent with several names already (see: Kuribo's/Goomba's Shoe)?
* How are these seperate enemies despite not having ANY differences in their recent appearances (like in Super Mario 64 DS where Big Berthas are actively aggressive and don't spit out Baby Cheeps, or in Yoshi's Island DS where a female Boss Bass appears)?
* How are these seperate enemies when every post-SMB3 example doesn't even know which is which, and starts with phrases like "A Big Bertha (or maybe a Boss Bass) appears in [game]"?
* How does a different attack pattern mean anything considering that REGULAR Cheep Cheeps have differing attack patterns depending on whether you're near or in the water (being more aggressive and jumping out and being more passive and swimming around, respectively (which is almost exactly like Big Berthas/Boss Bass))?

[[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 03:54, 24 March 2015 (EDT)