Editing Talk:Boom Boom
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A small bit of trivia: The Prima guide states that he is the "forgotten Koopaling". As the Prima Game Guides usually cannot be trusted, I'm wondering whether there is any evidence for this... {{USer:3dejong/sig|boo Prima.}} | A small bit of trivia: The Prima guide states that he is the "forgotten Koopaling". As the Prima Game Guides usually cannot be trusted, I'm wondering whether there is any evidence for this... {{USer:3dejong/sig|boo Prima.}} | ||
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== Redundancy == | == Redundancy == | ||
In the appearance section, it says ''Unlike them, he is bald and has no hair.'' which is pretty much saying the same thing twice. I've never known anybody to be bald and have hair (har har). Should I change this, or should somebody else? --[[File: | In the appearance section, it says ''Unlike them, he is bald and has no hair.'' which is pretty much saying the same thing twice. I've never known anybody to be bald and have hair (har har). Should I change this, or should somebody else? --[[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] [[User:SuperYoshiBros|<span style=color:blue>Super</span>]][[User talk:SuperYoshiBros|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/SuperYoshiBros|Bros]] [[File:YoshiMP8a.PNG|35px]] 20:51, 6 December 2011 (EST) | ||
:It's obviously redundant, so feel free to change it (as long as you do it properly). {{User:Bop1996/sig}} | :It's obviously redundant, so feel free to change it (as long as you do it properly). {{User:Bop1996/sig}} | ||
:actually, you can be bald and have hair; bald only means no hair on your head (unless you are an animal). So you could be bald but have a beard or a mustache. However, having no hair means, well, no hair, so in this case either bald or has no hair will work.[[User:M&L|M&L Just because you're in red doesn't mean you're strong. Have at you!]] 19:38, 31 January 2012 (EST) | :actually, you can be bald and have hair; bald only means no hair on your head (unless you are an animal). So you could be bald but have a beard or a mustache. However, having no hair means, well, no hair, so in this case either bald or has no hair will work.[[User:M&L|M&L Just because you're in red doesn't mean you're strong. Have at you!]] 19:38, 31 January 2012 (EST) | ||
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==Create a Second Page for the Species== | ==Create a Second Page for the Species== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
<span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">MAKE A SECOND PAGE 14-9-1</span> | |||
As you can see in the above discussion, there's a lot of inconsistency about Boom Boom. Some sources treat Boom Boom as one specific character, while others say Boom Boom is a species. Right now, all we have is this one Boom Boom page which treats him as a singular character, glossing over the instances where more than one Boom Booms appear onscreen, and not discussing the inconsistent game manual descriptions. I feel that the best way to deal with this situation is to '''keep this character page''' and '''make a ''second'' page for the species'''. It would be called {{ | |||
As you can see in the above discussion, there's a lot of inconsistency about Boom Boom. Some sources treat Boom Boom as one specific character, while others say Boom Boom is a species. Right now, all we have is this one Boom Boom page which treats him as a singular character, glossing over the instances where more than one Boom Booms appear onscreen, and not discussing the inconsistent game manual descriptions. I feel that the best way to deal with this situation is to '''keep this character page''' and '''make a ''second'' page for the species'''. It would be called {{fakelink|Boom Boom (species)}}, like how [[Birdo (species)]], [[Yoshi (species)]] and [[Toad (species)]] distinguish the eponymous characters from their overall species. It would also work the same way as those pages, with the bulk of the information on this main "Boom Boom" page, and only the stuff that's not the one guy getting moved to the other page. This page would then say that Boom Boom is a Boom Boom who specifically appears in some games, however it would also discuss that there is some ambiguity due to writing styles ("he" also being used for enemies ''known'' to be generic) and conflicting information (i.e. the NES ''SMB3'' sounding like he's one guy, while <i>SMASLE</i>'s ''SMB3'' entry makes it sound like there's a group of them), and the fact that original Japanese offers no insight (since there's no pluralizations or pronouns). The species page would also discuss the precarious situation. | |||
Broken down appearance-by-appearance, the situation is as follows: | Broken down appearance-by-appearance, the situation is as follows: | ||
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That isn't necessarily true. Boom Boom can still have character development even if a species of him does exist, unless your telling me that Toad and Yoshi didn't gain any character development just because they're generic. I also have both SM3DL and NSMBU and none of the manuals even mention Boom Boom (in fact, its barely an instruction booklet at all, at least compared to the manuals of past games). My point with Kamek is that guides are known to make mistakes and the fact that you want to go with a source like the NSMBU guide and call Boom Boom a character just because it says so even though in-game it shows multiple Boom Booms. I need to repeat myself again, what is shown in-game overrides written sources like manuals and guides and NSMBU shows multiple Boom Booms in-game, which means it overrides what the guide says. That means that the guide made a mistake in calling him a character just like with Kamek's name. (Walkazo even mentioned the verdict being species for NSMBU because he knows that the species are shown in-game) [[User:Smasher345|Smasher345]] 00:40, 12 January 2013 (EST) | That isn't necessarily true. Boom Boom can still have character development even if a species of him does exist, unless your telling me that Toad and Yoshi didn't gain any character development just because they're generic. I also have both SM3DL and NSMBU and none of the manuals even mention Boom Boom (in fact, its barely an instruction booklet at all, at least compared to the manuals of past games). My point with Kamek is that guides are known to make mistakes and the fact that you want to go with a source like the NSMBU guide and call Boom Boom a character just because it says so even though in-game it shows multiple Boom Booms. I need to repeat myself again, what is shown in-game overrides written sources like manuals and guides and NSMBU shows multiple Boom Booms in-game, which means it overrides what the guide says. That means that the guide made a mistake in calling him a character just like with Kamek's name. (Walkazo even mentioned the verdict being species for NSMBU because he knows that the species are shown in-game) [[User:Smasher345|Smasher345]] 00:40, 12 January 2013 (EST) | ||
:<nowiki>*</nowiki>because ''she'' knows... (because I am a girl, not a boy, for the record). Anyway, it's not so much a case of ''overriding'' or "some manuals are mistaken" ([[MarioWiki:Canonicity|everything is canon]], after all, and [[MarioWiki:Good | :<nowiki>*</nowiki>because ''she'' knows... (because I am a girl, not a boy, for the record). Anyway, it's not so much a case of ''overriding'' or "some manuals are mistaken" ([[MarioWiki:Canonicity|everything is canon]], after all, and [[MarioWiki:Good Writing#Reading between the lines|we're not supposed to speculate]] about what writers "meant" to say), but rather, a matter of contradictory information. Many things use the singular to refer to Boom Boom (although seeing as manuals often use the singular to talk about generic enemies, there's some ambiguity here), but at least one source uses the plural, and a couple games show that there is more than one Boom Boom, so it's ''impossible'' for there to ''not'' be more than one Boom Boom. If you say otherwise, you're ignoring valid information (not allowed: everything is canon); if you justify it by saying Boom Boom has "always meant" to be a character only, you're reading between the lines (not allowed); if you say the stuff that show multiple Boom Booms or speak of them in the plural is wrong, you're making a judgment call and weighing one source over another (not allowed - same as for the pro-species side); and trying to say it's one guy with cloning abilities is nothing but speculation (not allowed). You can speculate and be selective about what you believe as much as you like on your own time, ''but you can't do it here''. One story says he's a character, one says there is a species - we can ''and must'' include both stories on the wiki (in fact, ''we already do'', but a full page is much better coverage than a couple lines about the inconsistencies in our current article); fortunately, since the character can be part of the species, they're not mutually exclusive stories and ''nothing'' about Boom Boom-the-character's identity will be lost as a result of a second page being made, so I am really baffled as to why there is so much resistance to this proposal... - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 01:29, 12 January 2013 (EST) | ||
::Walkazo, as it's been pointed out, manuals and other sources, old or not, tend to offer varying information on enemies, classifying them either as a character or a species. As the only person who has so far voted for the third option, I believe Boom Boom is just another enemy type which is mostly fought as a boss. Going by some of the enemy articles on this Wiki, and checking the old manuals, I don't see any character articles that separate a specific enemy from the rest of its species; Koopa Toopa is a prime example of this. Also, what Boom Boom severely lacks to be a character of its own is distinction from its species, something like Toad (character) has over other members of his species. | ::Walkazo, as it's been pointed out, manuals and other sources, old or not, tend to offer varying information on enemies, classifying them either as a character or a species. As the only person who has so far voted for the third option, I believe Boom Boom is just another enemy type which is mostly fought as a boss. Going by some of the enemy articles on this Wiki, and checking the old manuals, I don't see any character articles that separate a specific enemy from the rest of its species; Koopa Toopa is a prime example of this. Also, what Boom Boom severely lacks to be a character of its own is distinction from its species, something like Toad (character) has over other members of his species. | ||
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== Merge "Boom Boom" page to "Boom Boom (species)" and rename it "Boom Boom" == | == Merge "Boom Boom" page to "Boom Boom (species)" and rename it "Boom Boom" == | ||
{{ | |||
{{TPP}} | |||
It was hard to me to make a opinion with this recently, but I come to a fact that I think their is not actually a "character" that is name "Boom Boom", my reason is because in mostly all the games that Boom Boom appear in, Boom Boom don't appear has one character. In Super Mario Bros. 3, I really don't think that Boom Boom is a character because of different powers that Boom Boom have in all the fortress, some even fly and some don't. In New Super Mario Bros. U, It make the most cense that Boom Boom is really a species, because they appear in the top of 6 towers and each of them have different powers that Kamek give to them. I look to some other characters like Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy and their is not really a specific characters that is name Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy (except the one from Mario Party Advance). So the way I would do this I will delete this article because Boom Boom is too much a ambiguous species for the moment to make a article about "the" Boom Boom and make like the Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy a article about the species in general. So, what do you think about it? | It was hard to me to make a opinion with this recently, but I come to a fact that I think their is not actually a "character" that is name "Boom Boom", my reason is because in mostly all the games that Boom Boom appear in, Boom Boom don't appear has one character. In Super Mario Bros. 3, I really don't think that Boom Boom is a character because of different powers that Boom Boom have in all the fortress, some even fly and some don't. In New Super Mario Bros. U, It make the most cense that Boom Boom is really a species, because they appear in the top of 6 towers and each of them have different powers that Kamek give to them. I look to some other characters like Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy and their is not really a specific characters that is name Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy (except the one from Mario Party Advance). So the way I would do this I will delete this article because Boom Boom is too much a ambiguous species for the moment to make a article about "the" Boom Boom and make like the Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy a article about the species in general. So, what do you think about it? | ||
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#{{User|Glowsquid}} overly cautious interpretation random website bios and manuals is hardly worth making two nearly-identical pages for, especially when those old nes and snes manuals talk about emenies as if they're individual characters. just have one page that notes the ambiguity and avoid making a definitive statement about what the hell boom-boom is. | #{{User|Glowsquid}} overly cautious interpretation random website bios and manuals is hardly worth making two nearly-identical pages for, especially when those old nes and snes manuals talk about emenies as if they're individual characters. just have one page that notes the ambiguity and avoid making a definitive statement about what the hell boom-boom is. | ||
#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per LinkTheLefty and Glowsquid. | #{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per LinkTheLefty and Glowsquid. | ||
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} This approach seems to be the least convoluted approach to a messy situation that deals with ambiguous sources. The more the merrier, but you can't always resort to that argument | #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} This approach seems to be the least convoluted approach to a messy situation that deals with ambiguous sources. The more the merrier, but you can't always resort to that argument. The arguments in the last proposal, especially from the Super Mario Bros. 3 manual, seems to be taken out of context, which seems to me is less of a reason to have two articles. | ||
#{{User|PowerKamek}} Alright, now I know who Boom Boom is, I will say that this is a good idea! | #{{User|PowerKamek}} Alright, now I know who Boom Boom is, I will say that this is a good idea! | ||
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Glowsquid's solution sounds like the best one to me. I feel like having two pages that describe nearly the same thing is redundant beyond belief and a small blurb in a single page does the wiki a better favor at organization and navigation, and it's extremely confusing to have two pages on what looks like the same thign. | #{{User|Baby Luigi}} Glowsquid's solution sounds like the best one to me. I feel like having two pages that describe nearly the same thing is redundant beyond belief and a small blurb in a single page does the wiki a better favor at organization and navigation, and it's extremely confusing to have two pages on what looks like the same thign. | ||
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::Plenty of recurring bosses have different powers from fight to fight, even within single games. Otherwise battles get repetitive, boring and too easy. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:28, 30 July 2015 (EDT) | ::Plenty of recurring bosses have different powers from fight to fight, even within single games. Otherwise battles get repetitive, boring and too easy. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:28, 30 July 2015 (EDT) | ||
:::Not, if it get power. Look at Boom Boom from the Acorn Plains's tower in NSMBU, Boom Boom has the same abilities from all fortress from SMB3, but it get power from Kamek in all others towers, that's not it's own power, it get the power. A another good point to this is Bowser himself, in it's simple form in the SMB series, the only thing he do it's spit fireball and jump, but own new abilities from Bowser Jr. in NSMB, Kamek in NSMBWii and NSMBU and the Koopalings in NSMB2. This is a point to observed. The Koopalings in NSMBWii, each of them have the same abilities from SMB3, but get power from Kamek in their castle boss fight.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 23:20, 30 July 2015 (EDT) | :::Not, if it get power. Look at Boom Boom from the Acorn Plains's tower in NSMBU, Boom Boom has the same abilities from all fortress from SMB3, but it get power from Kamek in all others towers, that's not it's own power, it get the power. A another good point to this is Bowser himself, in it's simple form in the SMB series, the only thing he do it's spit fireball and jump, but own new abilities from Bowser Jr. in NSMB, Kamek in NSMBWii and NSMBU and the Koopalings in NSMB2. This is a point to observed. The Koopalings in NSMBWii, each of them have the same abilities from SMB3, but get power from Kamek in their castle boss fight.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 23:20, 30 July 2015 (EDT) | ||
<s>There was a proposal that won not to long ago about creating a page for the species. Why in the world would we want to merge Boom Boom with that? Usually, characters have their own articles and they don't get merged into their spicies page. And to rename the spicies page to Boom Boom... Species shouldn't get renamed to names that don't include "spicies", even if you merge Boom Boom with it. </s>I don't even know who Boom Boom is, but I still don't think this is a good idea. | <s>There was a proposal that won not to long ago about creating a page for the species. Why in the world would we want to merge Boom Boom with that? Usually, characters have their own articles and they don't get merged into their spicies page. And to rename the spicies page to Boom Boom... Species shouldn't get renamed to names that don't include "spicies", even if you merge Boom Boom with it. </s>I don't even know who Boom Boom is, but I still don't think this is a good idea. [[File:PowerKamekSignature.png|150px|link=User:PowerKamek]] | ||
([[User talk:PowerKamek|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/PowerKamek|contribs]]) | |||
<span style="color:red;font-family:monospace">Kamek Power!</span> 23:45, 30 July 2015 (EDT) | |||
:PowerKamek, please elaborate your position, you say per Walkazo, but here in the comments you say you don't even know who Boom Boom is (so my arguments tell that their is not really a Boom Boom character). Why do you really think that's not a good idea, maybe you can check LinkTheLefty's analyst. Thanks!--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 13:10, 31 July 2015 (EDT) | :PowerKamek, please elaborate your position, you say per Walkazo, but here in the comments you say you don't even know who Boom Boom is (so my arguments tell that their is not really a Boom Boom character). Why do you really think that's not a good idea, maybe you can check LinkTheLefty's analyst. Thanks!--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 13:10, 31 July 2015 (EDT) | ||
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Time Turner, for my part, I think the ambiguity of Boom Boom if there is or not a character from the name of the species is one of the things less than satisfactory that a encyclopedia should rely on. If we relied on the bios of other languages | Time Turner, for my part, I think the ambiguity of Boom Boom if there is or not a character from the name of the species is one of the things less than satisfactory that a encyclopedia should rely on. If we relied on the bios of other languages such as Europe which implies that there are many Boom Boom is still good, Nintendo of America can both make mistakes. Too much reliance on one region (America) may induce more errors on the Super Mario Wiki and for my part, I would like a lot more that this Wiki that I care a lot have the least possible error, because of old guides from NES and SNES. I also believe that LinkTheLefty made a very good analysis of the problems from Boom Boom and that those who voted before LinkTheLefty has put a position on this proposal should read this analysis. So, making a unique article about the species in general would be less ambiguous than two articles that make this really confusing.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 13:36, 31 July 2015 (EDT) | ||
::Honestly I would do the opposite. It would be more correct to leave the page of the character and to delete the page of the species.--[[User:Sonic98|Sonic98]] ([[User talk:Sonic98|talk]]) 13:59, 31 July 2015 (EDT) | ::Honestly I would do the opposite. It would be more correct to leave the page of the character and to delete the page of the species.--[[User:Sonic98|Sonic98]] ([[User talk:Sonic98|talk]]) 13:59, 31 July 2015 (EDT) | ||
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With the amount of ambiguity surrounding this subject, I think it's counterintuitive to try and separate the content into two different articles. [[User:Aokage|Aokage]] ([[User talk:Aokage|talk]]) 09:20, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | With the amount of ambiguity surrounding this subject, I think it's counterintuitive to try and separate the content into two different articles. [[User:Aokage|Aokage]] ([[User talk:Aokage|talk]]) 09:20, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
:Agreed. For every little nugget that ''implies but doesn't state'' Boom Boom is/was a character (ie. ''SMB3'' NES manual [among other enemies], ''3D Land'' American site), there are contemporary existing versions of the same material that outright contradicts it (eg. ''SMB3'' guide/re-releases, ''3D Land'' European site). The situation with Boom Boom is certainly far from clear-cut, unlike every other set of articles split between a species and its character. Since it borderline infringes on [[MarioWiki:Once and | :Agreed. For every little nugget that ''implies but doesn't state'' Boom Boom is/was a character (ie. ''SMB3'' NES manual [among other enemies], ''3D Land'' American site), there are contemporary existing versions of the same material that outright contradicts it (eg. ''SMB3'' guide/re-releases, ''3D Land'' European site). The situation with Boom Boom is certainly far from clear-cut, unlike every other set of articles split between a species and its character. Since it borderline infringes on [[MarioWiki:Once and Only Once|this]], there's no good reason not to simply scoop up the pertinent information that's been scattered across three (counting Pom Pom) articles and conveniently condense it in one coherent section. On another note, opposers "Per Walkazo" should really clarify their own positions since she earlier more or less opted out of the ensuing discussion. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:07, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
::So it's here we now come to the proposal rule #5:''Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the Comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes.'' Since, some users don't come back here to read the comments, should I go to opposer's talk page to ask them to clarify their vote?--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 14:45, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ::So it's here we now come to the proposal rule #5:''Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the Comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes.'' Since, some users don't come back here to read the comments, should I go to opposer's talk page to ask them to clarify their vote?--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 14:45, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
:::I've mentioned that elsewhere, but I didn't want to press it further. Basically, Walkazo expressed a fundamental dislike of my examination of her two-years+old writing but unfortunately couldn't bother reading the whole thing or refuting any points due to some current timing / TL;DR issues, though it doesn't sit right with me that approximately half the opposition inadvertently follows that example at the moment. Someone correct me if I'm incorrect since I don't really know the nuance or expectation of that rule, but votes stamped before the full breakdown ''may'' be safe even though they themselves rely heavily on the original argument that went mostly unchallenged. On the other hand, I've felt the need to notify others through their talk pages whenever significant developments occurred in my own proposals at least once in the past. It might be fine if you do that as a courtesy, but I'm personally wary of citing Rule 5 to question or withdraw votes just ''yet'' unless others confirm that this case would be an appropriate use of it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:05, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | :::I've mentioned that elsewhere, but I didn't want to press it further. Basically, Walkazo expressed a fundamental dislike of my examination of her two-years+old writing but unfortunately couldn't bother reading the whole thing or refuting any points due to some current timing / TL;DR issues, though it doesn't sit right with me that approximately half the opposition inadvertently follows that example at the moment. Someone correct me if I'm incorrect since I don't really know the nuance or expectation of that rule, but votes stamped before the full breakdown ''may'' be safe even though they themselves rely heavily on the original argument that went mostly unchallenged. On the other hand, I've felt the need to notify others through their talk pages whenever significant developments occurred in my own proposals at least once in the past. It might be fine if you do that as a courtesy, but I'm personally wary of citing Rule 5 to question or withdraw votes just ''yet'' unless others confirm that this case would be an appropriate use of it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:05, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
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*"the official guide [of SMB3] say mostly all enemies at the singular form (one Goomba, one Koopa and one Boom Boom)" I've gone through the guide, and I don't see that anywhere. I have the guide right here, and the enemies in the giant list of enemies, like the Goomba and the Koopa Troopa you decided to use as examples, are clearly pluralized. Heck, Boom Boom is explicitly referred to as "This Koopa boss", further solidifying its individuality. So, that's one of the best examples to use. | *"the official guide [of SMB3] say mostly all enemies at the singular form (one Goomba, one Koopa and one Boom Boom)" I've gone through the guide, and I don't see that anywhere. I have the guide right here, and the enemies in the giant list of enemies, like the Goomba and the Koopa Troopa you decided to use as examples, are clearly pluralized. Heck, Boom Boom is explicitly referred to as "This Koopa boss", further solidifying its individuality. So, that's one of the best examples to use. | ||
*"Boom Boom in 3D Land, the American version say that Boom Boom is a character, but other version say that Boom Boom is a species (if their is not only one Boom Boom) so, which one is good or not good is difficult to say and 3D World do the same thing." First, it's not the games themselves, or the manual or the guide (which also refers to Boom Boom as a character), but the websites, which is already a distant source. Secondly, the American version clearly refers to Boom Boom as a character; even if there are a couple of other sources that conflict with it, there's still clearly one that's referring to it as a character, and the conflicts just further support having separate articles. You can't cherrypick your sources and dismiss everything that doesn't fit with your image. Also, I haven't seen anyone mention 3D World here (heck, I've been browsing the official websites and I don't even see mention of Boom Boom), so I don't think citing that is appropriate. | *"Boom Boom in 3D Land, the American version say that Boom Boom is a character, but other version say that Boom Boom is a species (if their is not only one Boom Boom) so, which one is good or not good is difficult to say and 3D World do the same thing." First, it's not the games themselves, or the manual or the guide (which also refers to Boom Boom as a character), but the websites, which is already a distant source. Secondly, the American version clearly refers to Boom Boom as a character; even if there are a couple of other sources that conflict with it, there's still clearly one that's referring to it as a character, and the conflicts just further support having separate articles. You can't cherrypick your sources and dismiss everything that doesn't fit with your image. Also, I haven't seen anyone mention 3D World here (heck, I've been browsing the official websites and I don't even see mention of Boom Boom), so I don't think citing that is appropriate. | ||
*"By having two articles that say mostly the same thing and saying that Boom Boom is a character or not is really speculative. Having only one article and saying the ambiguity of Boom Boom is less speculative to me." Here's my biggest gripe: where's the speculation in our votes? Speculation is coming up with answers that have literally no backing, like saying that there's going to be a game based around Waluigi in the future: I don't have any sources and nothing official to provide as proof, it's just something I came up with off the top of my head. However, the opposers are absolutely ''not'' speculating, because, as many people have brought up, there are very clear sources that point to Boom Boom being an individual character. Our arguments aren't baseless, as you seem to be asserting, but entirely based around facts. This is the crux of every proposal: an ambiguous situation is brought up, with various sources that don't seem to agree with each other, so the users interpret what's given to them and come to a conclusion, which is exactly what we've done here, and our conclusion is that it's appropriate for there to be an article about the species and an article about the character. It's entirely acceptable for you to not like that conclusion, and that's fine, because we're not right, and neither are you. Proposals aren't about being right, they're about a community making a decision on what they believe in. Was it wrong for us to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/ | *"By having two articles that say mostly the same thing and saying that Boom Boom is a character or not is really speculative. Having only one article and saying the ambiguity of Boom Boom is less speculative to me." Here's my biggest gripe: where's the speculation in our votes? Speculation is coming up with answers that have literally no backing, like saying that there's going to be a game based around Waluigi in the future: I don't have any sources and nothing official to provide as proof, it's just something I came up with off the top of my head. However, the opposers are absolutely ''not'' speculating, because, as many people have brought up, there are very clear sources that point to Boom Boom being an individual character. Our arguments aren't baseless, as you seem to be asserting, but entirely based around facts. This is the crux of every proposal: an ambiguous situation is brought up, with various sources that don't seem to agree with each other, so the users interpret what's given to them and come to a conclusion, which is exactly what we've done here, and our conclusion is that it's appropriate for there to be an article about the species and an article about the character. It's entirely acceptable for you to not like that conclusion, and that's fine, because we're not right, and neither are you. Proposals aren't about being right, they're about a community making a decision on what they believe in. Was it wrong for us to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_42#Stop_Listing_Sub-Species_on_Generic_Real-World_Species_Pages|stop listing real world animals as subspecies]]? Who knows, but that was the decision that the community came to. Therefore, please don't refer to what we're arguing as speculation. | ||
:::Sorry, just had to get that off of my chest. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | :::Sorry, just had to get that off of my chest. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | ||
::::Time Turner, did you look at LinkTheLefty's analysis that claim that various enemy appear at their singular form in the original guide? It's from their I take my argument.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 20:57, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ::::Time Turner, did you look at LinkTheLefty's analysis that claim that various enemy appear at their singular form in the original guide? It's from their I take my argument.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 20:57, 5 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
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-While we're on that point, no user has to talk to you for any reason if they don't want to or otherwise don't have the time. This can seem like a problem when trying to converse with members of the administrative team, but guess what? We [[Special:Listusers/sysop|have plenty]] of people who can help. It is considered bad form and generally seen as a violation of our Courtesy policy to bug people who have made it clear they either can't be on hand for a discussion or have expressed disinterest in the topic. To tie this back around to the current situation, I'd call LinkTheLefty's conduct here a clear case of harassment.<br> | -While we're on that point, no user has to talk to you for any reason if they don't want to or otherwise don't have the time. This can seem like a problem when trying to converse with members of the administrative team, but guess what? We [[Special:Listusers/sysop|have plenty]] of people who can help. It is considered bad form and generally seen as a violation of our Courtesy policy to bug people who have made it clear they either can't be on hand for a discussion or have expressed disinterest in the topic. To tie this back around to the current situation, I'd call LinkTheLefty's conduct here a clear case of harassment.<br> | ||
- [[User:Ghost Jam|Ghost Jam]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 02:22, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | - [[User:Ghost Jam|Ghost Jam]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 02:22, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
:Stating my reason for taking issue with certain votes and bringing it up in the comments as succinctly as I could is ''exactly'' what I did, and I feel going on further about whoever was more in the wrong over broken promises that happened about a week ago ''here'' is a distraction for everyone. I really don't know how to make it clearer that this proposal has been less than ideal for me, too. All that needed to be said was that Rule 5 is not applicable here; it is now clear that it does not, so the | :Stating my reason for taking issue with certain votes and bringing it up in the comments as succinctly as I could is ''exactly'' what I did, and I feel going on further about whoever was more in the wrong over broken promises that happened about a week ago ''here'' is a distraction for everyone. I really don't know how to make it clearer that this proposal has been less than ideal for me, too. All that needed to be said was that Rule 5 is not applicable here; it is now clear that it does not, so the only relevant matter is still whether more people agree with [[#Create_a_Second_Page_for_the_Species|this]] or [[User:LinkTheLefty/Projects#Boom_Boom:_Take_2|that]]. Let's carry on. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:00, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
== Finally, I think I find Boom Boom! == | == Finally, I think I find Boom Boom! == | ||
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Well, this is it, this proposal made me think about Boom Boom greatly and I carefully inspected the official arts of Boom Boom and I noticed something amazing and FINALLY could possibly make an end to this debate which almost does not make sense now. To my thinking, I'll put SMB3 side, it give me more trouble to make a link between the character and the species. In short, I think I have found the Boom Boom character between species. Have you noticed that in some games and in relation to games, I mean Super Mario 3D Land and Super Mario 3D World Boom Boom has a shell without spikes, while in others, such as NSMBU, P & D: SMBE and M & S: Rio, it has a spiky shell. That's where our famous character is, Boom Boom (the character) is one that has no spike on its shell. So I proposed that article of the character does only includes information on the Boom Boom which has a shell without spikes and on the article of the species, the one that do have spike, but mentioned the character Boom Boom, the one that do not have spikes on its shell. What do you think?--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 00:13, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | Well, this is it, this proposal made me think about Boom Boom greatly and I carefully inspected the official arts of Boom Boom and I noticed something amazing and FINALLY could possibly make an end to this debate which almost does not make sense now. To my thinking, I'll put SMB3 side, it give me more trouble to make a link between the character and the species. In short, I think I have found the Boom Boom character between species. Have you noticed that in some games and in relation to games, I mean Super Mario 3D Land and Super Mario 3D World Boom Boom has a shell without spikes, while in others, such as NSMBU, P & D: SMBE and M & S: Rio, it has a spiky shell. That's where our famous character is, Boom Boom (the character) is one that has no spike on its shell. So I proposed that article of the character does only includes information on the Boom Boom which has a shell without spikes and on the article of the species, the one that do have spike, but mentioned the character Boom Boom, the one that do not have spikes on its shell. What do you think?--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 00:13, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
:Actually, I have a minor thing against that. As far as we know, we don't know if there is Boom Boom "character" among the species in ''3D World'', right? The closest I think we have is ''[[Super Mario 3D World Original Soundtrack]]''. The track number 24, on disc 2, is called "Bowser's Minions" in PAL English release. Said music is played exclusively during Boom Boom boss fights. Imo, this is an implication, maybe even a confirmation, that ''3D World'' features different Boom Booms each time instead of "the" Boom Boom every time, so no, "the" Boom Boom isn't the only spikeless member of its species. It also goes along with the European ''3D Land'' official site. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 04:11, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | :Actually, I have a minor thing against that. As far as we know, we don't know if there is Boom Boom "character" among the species in ''3D World'', right? The closest I think we have is ''[[Super Mario 3D World Original Soundtrack]]''. The track number 24, on disc 2, is called "Bowser's Minions" in PAL English release. Said music is played exclusively during Boom Boom boss fights. Imo, this is an implication, maybe even a confirmation, that ''3D World'' features different Boom Booms each time instead of "the" Boom Boom every time, so no, "the" Boom Boom isn't the only spikeless member of its species. It also goes along with the European ''3D Land'' official site. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 04:11, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
::Yes, this isn't a new discovery. Inconsistencies still exist among different translators, etc. This would also shift the basis of the articles into "Boom Boom (plain shell)" and "Boom Boom (spiky shell)" - and it's speculative to definitively say which one is the character and species | ::Yes, this isn't a new discovery. Inconsistencies still exist among different translators, etc. This would also shift the basis of the articles into "Boom Boom (plain shell)" and "Boom Boom (spiky shell)" - and it's speculative to definitively say which one is the character and species. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:00, 6 August 2015 (EDT) | ||
