Editing Talk:Boo Guy

==Bomb version==
According to the Shogakukan (need to find a better way to remember how to spell that than "look at my short-term history") guide for ''Yoshi's New Island'', the bomb-dropping version {{file link|Yoshi New Island Shogakukan P26.jpg|has a distinct name}} from the "normal" version. Also apparently the ''PiT'' one is Greaper, mayhaps it's a rename? Anyways, how about the two names here? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:14, 19 December 2017 (EST)
:It's '''Relay Heihō''' (リレーヘイホー). Like [[Bouncing Bullet Bill]], they didn't [[:File:Advance_3_Shogakukan_P23.png|originally]] have their own name in Japanese guides, but they got one in ''Yoshi's New Island'', complete with a separate entry internally (<tt>G:/content0.game/romfs/stage/cmp_gmk_relayheyho.csv</tt>). Who knows why the mace-pulling versions remain unnamed. As for Reihō/Greaper, I'm not sure what happened there - my guess is that the RPG text had space constraints, resulting in the alternate name. <s>However, the name Reihō is also mentioned in its profile in a [https://imgur.com/a/wKLKQ Japanese ''Yoshi's Island DS'' guide.]</s> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:45, 19 December 2017 (EST)
::Which page? The enemy guide spells it as "Yurei Heiho" still. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:00, 19 December 2017 (EST)
:::Disregard, I must've misread it. In any case, though I'm not sure about Greaper, I think Relay Heihō should be considered a derived Boo Guy article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:20, 19 December 2017 (EST)
::::T'would make sense, as they now have a distinct name in some language. Remember, Bullet Bill and <s>Bull's-eye</s> Missile Bill were considered to be basically a Green-Red Troopa situation in Japan initially, ie variants of the same enemy (explaining SM64 and SMG), but were eventually given separate names over there as well. In this case, we only have the JP name to work with as of now, but it seems a tad more splittable than Short Fuse and Seedy Sally. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:30, 19 December 2017 (EST)
:::::Short Fuse and Seedy Sally have [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P14.png|every]] [https://i.imgur.com/Y5X3lRz.jpg Japanese] [[:File:Yoshi New Island Shogakukan P18.jpg|guide]] and ''[[Scrapbook Theater|Yoshi's Woolly World]]'' against them, so Relay Heihō certainly has it easier. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:51, 19 December 2017 (EST)

==Alledged relation to Boos==
The supposed relation to [[Boo]]s seems to be something ''completely'' made up by the Western localization, and as such all Boo Guys should be removed from the "Boo" category and template. In the Japanese version, they were simply "''Yurei Heiho''", with the American version making the obviously-untrue assertion that they are "Boo Babies." Anyways, since this has caused much confusion it seems, I think it needs to be said that these are not Boos. If they were, the Japanese name would have been the obvious "''Tereiho''" or something. Besides, "boo" is a generic exclamation relating to ghosts, for instance [[Mssr Boo]] isn't a Boo. And these were not designed to invoke Boos, they were designed simply to be ghostly Shy Guys. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:42, 13 April 2018 (EDT)

:The same thing can be said with [[Anuboo]] and [[Fuzzipede]], but if we remove their connection with Boos, then we should do the same thing with [[Snufit]]s. {{User:VOIDTHIS/sig}} 20:10, 20 June 2018 (CEST)
::Snufits aren't Boos in any way, barring the original spherical shape, and there were ''plenty'' of spherical enemies in SM64. Boo was actually more oblong in that game anyways. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:43, 20 June 2018 (EDT)
:::The main issue is that this isn't just a one-time thing that simply went away like Mace Penguin - it's used rather consistently in almost every game the enemy appears in, and according to the names in other languages section, it's not only the English translation. That makes it pretty unmistakable what "Boo" refers to in this context, putting it in the same boat as Fishing Boo. I really doubt that the localizers are going to budge on this one anytime soon. That being said, I don't think I'd be opposed to removing mentions of Boo in Boo Guy's derived/related species. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:24, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
::::See, in the name I don't see it as referring to the Boo species, but as the stereotypical ghostly interjection, akin to how [[Mssr Boo]] isn't named after the Boo species. So it's not too concrete there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:34, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
:::::That would make sense if it was just the English version, but it's also the case in several other languages. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:40, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
::::::I doubt "Boo" as an interjection is unique to English. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:05, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
:::::::Cursory searching for the spelling of Boo/Buu tells me that it pretty much is, but I don't know for sure; what I do know is that the original description for this enemy in {{file link|Super Mario Yossy Island Shogakukan P4 P5.jpg|Shogakukan}} {{file link|Advance 3 Shogakukan P23.png|guides}} never actually stated the species, but it was added in {{file link|Yoshi New Island Shogakukan P26.jpg|later}} by the guides for the sequels, meaning that the {{file link|SMW2 Guide 126.jpg|Boo explanation}} was technically first. It's also possible that this information wasn't totally "made up" - if the translators had developer knowledge that it is conceptually based on Boo and Shy Guy, it would stand to reason that they would adjust its name accordingly, hence why they ran with Boo Guy. We don't know the full story, but it still can't be dismissed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 03:00, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
:::::::Thinking about it some more, while the "boo!" explanation still doesn't hold much water for the reason I've outlined, perhaps a better way to justify Boo Guy would be to explain "Boo" as merely a name descriptor (ie. a Boo-like Shy Guy) and not necessarily any real indication of species; upon closer inspection, the keyword "basically" in the description from the Nintendo Power guide can support this interpretation. So how about this: instead of completely scrubbing references to Boo from the article, why not move it to a related species slot until further notice? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:00, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
::::::::Maybe. What about templates and categories? (Probably a similar situation would be Octoombas and Octoboos; neither are a true Goomba or Boo, but are comparable to them...) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:06, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::Related species typically aren't listed in templates and categories since the connection is indirect, so Boo would be removed from them in this scenario. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:42, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
:Not to revive an old discussion, but I did say back then that the translators possibly had developer knowledge. While it's not known yet for sure if that's the case with Boo Guy, since then, it was found to be true for [[tcrf:Development:Super Mario World (SNES)/Background Graphics and Tilemaps#Enemy Cast List|Fishin' Boo]]. I'm surprised this hasn't been pointed out here somewhere. There's also the fact that the ''Nintendo Power'' coverage of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' - in collaboration with the game's own director, Yukimi Shimura - refers to the enemies as Boos. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:54, July 4, 2024 (EDT)

==Merge Greaper and/or Polterguy with Boo Guy==
{{TPP}}
This proposal aims to settle the score with these two Boo Guy offshoots. To sum up, Greaper's Japanese name has been reused for at least one appearance of the standard Boo Guy, in ''Partners in Time''. レイホー (''Reihō'') is a contracted form of ゆーれいヘイホー (''Yūrei Heihō''), so it can be argued that it was a name change done for in-game space constraints. Why would the translation be different? Simple: localization coordination was not as prioritized back then, and the original ''Super Mario RPG'' especially <small>but, in my opinion, unfairly</small> became a prime example of that undercoordination. Why wouldn't the remake catch it? In fairness, seemingly no one remembered what the deal was with [[Nipper Plant#Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|Chompweed]]. Why the scythe? That, I don't have a decent explanation for except it's possibly a vestige of [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars#Enemy Relationship Chart|earlier concepts]]. Polterguy is another matter. It's very clearly ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''{{'}}s toy Boo Guy design. [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide how to handle the toy enemies from across the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series|Recent]] [[Talk:Spear Shy Guy#Decide how to organize Spear Shy Guy and/or Shy Guy (Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again!) with Spear Guy|proposals]] have been merging the toy designs back with their main counterparts. [[Polterguy#Internal names|Internal names]] in the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' remake, at least some of which date back to [[Brickman#Internal names|original development]], seem to refer to these guys as Ghost Shy Guys, which is a basic translation of the Japanese name. My conjecture is that "Polterguy" and "Phantom Guy" were just experimental names to remove the Boo influence, and neither stuck around in the long haul. The fact that ''Nintendo Power''{{'}}s tips for the original ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' (reportedly from game director Yukimi Shimura) refers to them as "Boos" makes me believe "Boo Guy" was the intended name but led to some confusion.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 18, 2023, 23:59 GMT
===Option 1: Merge both Greaper and Polterguy with Boo Guy===

===Option 2: Merge only Greaper with Boo Guy===

===Option 3: Merge only Polterguy with Boo Guy===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preferred option. I currently find this to be the more compelling merge.
#{{User|Hewer}} The Greaper merge feels a bit tenuous, but this one makes sense given we've been merging other toy counterparts.
#{{User|Blinker}} Polterguy makes sense, but Greaper? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall SMRPG otherwise taking any influence from Yoshi's Island, aside from the reference in Wizakoopa's thought.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - This makes sense to me. In want of further evidence, I'm inclined to believe the Greaper thing is a coincidence.
#{{User|Arend}} Not sure about Greaper, but merging Polterguy absolutely makes sense to me. Near identical designs, and identical Japanese names, it's practically a toy version of Boo Guy. And considering we merged the other toy versions to their non-toy counterparts...

===Option 4: Keep Greaper and Polterguy separate from Boo Guy===
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} All this looks a bit messy to me and appears to be too reliant on Japanese names.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Yeah, no. Also, per Bowser.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Let me think...NO.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all. Just like [[Goomba]] and [[Paragoomba]] and all other similar enemies, these are different enemies that deserve their own pages.

===Comments===
If there are any other suggestions for handling the ''Partners in Time'' Boo Guys, I might incorporate it in the proposal if there's interest. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:54, July 4, 2024 (EDT)

Would this result in an article rename? Or is Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World the last time Boo Guys/Polterguys were named? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:13, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
:Merging Greaper would theoretically make that the most recent name, but we've generally overlooked unchanged names in the ''Super Mario RPG'' and ''The Thousand-Year Door'' remakes for the time being. Polterguy wouldn't change the name since Boo Guy resurfaced in ''Woolly World'', which reverted some other enemies like Burt (last called "Burt Brother" in ''Yoshi's Island DS''). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:25, July 5, 2024 (EDT)

: Sorry, but no. As has been said numerous times on this wiki, Japanese names mean absolutely nothing when it comes to subjects in the games considering they have the same Japanese names but that's about it. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:57, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
::Let's reframe this, then: what about Polterguy doesn't make it the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' "toy" counterpart of Boo Guy? And are we 100% certain that Greaper wasn't another victim of undercoordination? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:04, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::Well, SMRPG has practically no influence from Yoshi's Island, so I'd say Greaper is probably a coincidence. Polterguy, on the other hand.. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:54, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::: Yeah, Greaper is coincidence while Polter/Phantom Guy is just a ghostly Shy Guy that happens to share a Japanese name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:41, July 6, 2024 (EDT)

@DrBaskerville: How is this remotely like Goomba and Paragoomba? Those are variants that have co-existed in the same games and have clear, consistent visual and functional differences, plus different names in all languages. Meanwhile, Polterguy's English name was the only thing that stopped it from being merged already by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide how to handle the toy enemies from across the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series|this proposal]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:58, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 23: / Line 23: @@
 ==Merge Greaper and/or Polterguy with Boo Guy==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|0-0-6-7|keep separate}}
 This proposal aims to settle the score with these two Boo Guy offshoots. To sum up, Greaper's Japanese name has been reused for at least one appearance of the standard Boo Guy, in ''Partners in Time''. レイホー (''Reihō'') is a contracted form of ゆーれいヘイホー (''Yūrei Heihō''), so it can be argued that it was a name change done for in-game space constraints. Why would the translation be different? Simple: localization coordination was not as prioritized back then, and the original ''Super Mario RPG'' especially <small>but, in my opinion, unfairly</small> became a prime example of that undercoordination. Why wouldn't the remake catch it? In fairness, seemingly no one remembered what the deal was with [[Nipper Plant#Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|Chompweed]]. Why the scythe? That, I don't have a decent explanation for except it's possibly a vestige of [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars#Enemy Relationship Chart|earlier concepts]]. Polterguy is another matter. It's very clearly ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''{{'}}s toy Boo Guy design. [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide how to handle the toy enemies from across the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series|Recent]] [[Talk:Spear Shy Guy#Decide how to organize Spear Shy Guy and/or Shy Guy (Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again!) with Spear Guy|proposals]] have been merging the toy designs back with their main counterparts. [[Polterguy#Internal names|Internal names]] in the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' remake, at least some of which date back to [[Brickman#Internal names|original development]], seem to refer to these guys as Ghost Shy Guys, which is a basic translation of the Japanese name. My conjecture is that "Polterguy" and "Phantom Guy" were just experimental names to remove the Boo influence, and neither stuck around in the long haul. The fact that ''Nintendo Power''{{'}}s tips for the original ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' (reportedly from game director Yukimi Shimura) refers to them as "Boos" makes me believe "Boo Guy" was the intended name but led to some confusion.
 '''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': July 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT
+'''Deadline''': July 18, 2023, 23:59 GMT
 ===Option 1: Merge both Greaper and Polterguy with Boo Guy===
@@ Line 39: / Line 38: @@
 #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - This makes sense to me. In want of further evidence, I'm inclined to believe the Greaper thing is a coincidence.
 #{{User|Arend}} Not sure about Greaper, but merging Polterguy absolutely makes sense to me. Near identical designs, and identical Japanese names, it's practically a toy version of Boo Guy. And considering we merged the other toy versions to their non-toy counterparts...
-#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.
 ===Option 4: Keep Greaper and Polterguy separate from Boo Guy===
@@ Line 46: / Line 44: @@
 #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Let me think...NO.
 #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all. Just like [[Goomba]] and [[Paragoomba]] and all other similar enemies, these are different enemies that deserve their own pages.
-#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
-#{{User|ReeceeYT}} Per all.
-#{{User|Nintendo101}} I understand the perspective, but I am not convinced the name of the Boo Guy in ''Partners in Time'' can be comfortably applied to Greapers. As for Polterguy, it also looks too different from Boo Guy (beyond it being a toy), is mechanically distinct, and it was notably developed by American staff. If it was supposed to be a Boo Guy, why didn't they just call it one? Or call it a blue Boo Guy if it was supposed to be some weird variant? The other returning toy iterations of classic enemies in ''MvsDK'' are not like this.
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 60: / Line 55: @@
 :::Well, SMRPG has practically no influence from Yoshi's Island, so I'd say Greaper is probably a coincidence. Polterguy, on the other hand.. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:54, July 5, 2024 (EDT)
 :::: Yeah, Greaper is coincidence while Polter/Phantom Guy is just a ghostly Shy Guy that happens to share a Japanese name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:41, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::Blinker actually seems to be in agreement that Polterguy should be merged, and I can see why. Aside from sharing the same Japanese name, Polterguy actually looks ''nearly identical'' to a Boo Guy too: they're both Shy Guys with a wispy tail instead of a belt and a pair of feet. The only difference appearance-wise is the fact that Polterguy appears in the colors red, blue and yellow, whereas Boo Guys are white. Color variants shouldn't make this enemy a completely different entity, and if [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide how to handle the toy enemies from across the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series|this]] is anything to go by, neither do toy variants. Different behavior shouldn't also be a concern, as [[Boo]] also behaves differently between ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]'' (and [[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|its remake]]), and ''[[Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge]]'', yet we still have that merged.<br>I probably should repeat LinkTheLefty's reframed question, since you never seemed to have answered it: '''what about Polterguy doesn't make it the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' "toy" counterpart of Boo Guy?''' {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:20, July 6, 2024 (EDT)
-::: The possibility that the developers may not even have been aware of Yoshi's Island in the first place. After all, we used to have Special Shots from the Mario sports games on one page despite the fact that Square Enix and Camelot Software weren't even aware of each other's games. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:40, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
-:::: What about Spear Shy Guy, which was [[Talk:Spear Shy Guy|merged to]] Spear Guy earlier this year? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:41, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::Just because devs were different doesn't mean they had no clue about each other's existence. Yoshi's Island is hardly an obscure game, and is [[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island#References in later games|frequently referenced]] in games with different developers. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:25, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
-::::I can believe that with Greaper since ''Yoshi's Island'' and ''Super Mario RPG'' only released roughly half a year apart and were in development concurrently, but by ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''? Not to mention, much of the supervising Nintendo staff overlapped in some way. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:28, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
 @DrBaskerville: How is this remotely like Goomba and Paragoomba? Those are variants that have co-existed in the same games and have clear, consistent visual and functional differences, plus different names in all languages. Meanwhile, Polterguy's English name was the only thing that stopped it from being merged already by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Decide how to handle the toy enemies from across the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series|this proposal]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:58, July 6, 2024 (EDT)