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| Sorry about that, I was kind of busy too. | | Sorry about that, I was kind of busy too. |
| [[User:Pichufan93|Pichufan93]] | | [[User:Pichufan93|Pichufan93]] |
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| Good idea! [[User:BulletBill|BulletBill]] 12:54, 7 November 2011 (EST)
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| ==Yellow Toad== | | ==Yellow Toad== |
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| Edit: I made him one now. | | Edit: I made him one now. |
| [[User:Pichufan93|Pichufan93]] | | [[User:Pichufan93|Pichufan93]] |
| | Good idea! BulletBill 12:51, 7 November 2011 (EST) BulletBill |
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| ==Blue and Yellow Toad's Nicknames== | | ==Blue and Yellow Toad's Nicknames== |
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| ...No comment. - [[User:Smashgoom202|Smashgoom202]] 22:51, 18 November 2009 (EST) | | ...No comment. - [[User:Smashgoom202|Smashgoom202]] 22:51, 18 November 2009 (EST) |
| :The article's author asked an unspecified Nintendo rep (not Miyamoto or another developer) who didn't really know about the tournament, but otherwise knew "a lot of stuff." The rep told about nicknames supposedly used by the Japanese developers and whispered two names that don't sound typical for ''Kinopio'' at all. At the end, the author even humourously writes ''"I don't know if this guy knows what he's talking about or not, but I don't care"''. I can't take this seriously unless one of the developers confirms it in an interview or something. It could just be a joke made by the rep. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 12:45, 8 January 2010 (EST) | | :The article's author asked an unspecified Nintendo rep (not Miyamoto or another developer) who didn't really know about the tournament, but otherwise knew "a lot of stuff." The rep told about nicknames supposedly used by the Japanese developers and whispered two names that don't sound typical for ''Kinopio'' at all. At the end, the author even humourously writes ''"I don't know if this guy knows what he's talking about or not, but I don't care"''. I can't take this seriously unless one of the developers confirms it in an interview or something. It could just be a joke made by the rep. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 12:45, 8 January 2010 (EST) |
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| "Ala-Gold" is from: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War_The_Third_Gathers:_The_Backstroke_of_the_West so I ''highly'' doubt the rep's comment holds any water. [[User:Vent|Vent]] ([[User talk:Vent|talk]]) 22:19, 21 February 2013 (EST)
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| It's technically "Allah Gold" in Backstrokes of the West, but ermph, yeah. Since the Destructoid article doesn't explicitely states it's a joke, how about a disclaimer among the lines of:
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| <blockquote>Destructoid's Jonathan Holmes claims that, during a press event, a Nintendo Representative told him the Toad is nicknamed '''Bucken Berry''' by the developers, though the veracity of this fact is dubious as the name given to the [[Yellow Toad]] ("Ala-Gold") may be a reference to [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War_The_Third_Gathers:_The_Backstroke_of_the_West an infamous bootleg] of ''Star Wars: Episode 3''.</blockquote>
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| (having read the Backstrokes of the West blog post well over 10 times, I'm ashamed I didn't make the connection myself...) --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 22:55, 21 February 2013 (EST)
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| =="Blue Toad" or "Blue Toad''s''"?== | | =="Blue Toad" or "Blue Toad''s''"?== |
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| ==Split and Merge Article== | | ==Split and Merge Article== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| It cannot be assumed that just because a particular Toad is wearing blue, that ''every'' Toad wearing blue is the same individual. Prior to NSMBW, yblue Toads were simply generic background characters and had no real personality. Even the only personality-trait of the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' Blue Toad, of wearing glasses, is not found in this new Toad. This all suggests that they are different Toads that simply share a choice in clothing color. As it stands now, this article covers ''every'' appearance of a blue Toad, regardless of whether they may be the same Toad or not. The article also covers blue Toads "as a species", which is far too distinct a subject to cover on the same page; not to mention the different-colored Yoshi aren't considered different species, just variety. | | It cannot be assumed that just because a particular Toad is wearing blue, that ''every'' Toad wearing blue is the same individual. Prior to NSMBW, yblue Toads were simply generic background characters and had no real personality. Even the only personality-trait of the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' Blue Toad, of wearing glasses, is not found in this new Toad. This all suggests that they are different Toads that simply share a choice in clothing color. As it stands now, this article covers ''every'' appearance of a blue Toad, regardless of whether they may be the same Toad or not. The article also covers blue Toads "as a species", which is far too distinct a subject to cover on the same page; not to mention the different-colored Yoshi aren't considered different species, just variety. |
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| :::::Well, [[Blue Yoshi]] is about the blue yoshi species, while the original Blue Toad page toad about the color limitations, the Toad Brigade one, the NSMBW one, and Blue Toad as a species. The Blue Toad wears glasses in Super Mario Galaxy, he doesn't wear glasses in New Super Mario Bros Wii (or did he get contacts??). And the IGN called [[Blue Toad (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)]] Yvan. {{User:KS3/sig}} | | :::::Well, [[Blue Yoshi]] is about the blue yoshi species, while the original Blue Toad page toad about the color limitations, the Toad Brigade one, the NSMBW one, and Blue Toad as a species. The Blue Toad wears glasses in Super Mario Galaxy, he doesn't wear glasses in New Super Mario Bros Wii (or did he get contacts??). And the IGN called [[Blue Toad (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)]] Yvan. {{User:KS3/sig}} |
| ::::::He could have gotten contacts... that cook toad in Thousand Year Door wore contacts, so why couldn't blue toad? And IGN is an unofficial fan site, so a name given by IGN is not official at all, and isn't relevant to this wiki's format. {{User:CrystalYoshi/sig}} 21:45, 2 April 2010 (EDT) | | ::::::He could have gotten contacts... that cook toad in Thousand Year Door wore contacts, so why couldn't blue toad? And IGN is an unofficial fan site, so a name given by IGN is not official at all, and isn't relevant to this wiki's format. {{User:CrystalYoshi/sig}} 21:45, 2 April 2010 (EDT) |
| :::::::Well, they are still different characters, or how about let's merge [[Yoshi]] and [[Baby Yoshi]] into [[Green Yoshi]], [[Super Mario 64 DS]] into [[Super Mario 64]], Metal Mario (character) into Metal Mario (form), [[Baby Mario]] into [[Mario]], and [[Toadiko]] into [[Toadette]]. The reason why we don't merge them is because merging them are stupid; they are different characters/games/etc.. {{User:KS3/sig}} | | :::::::Well, they are still different characters, or how about let's merge [[Yoshi]] and [[Baby Yoshi]] into [[Green Yoshi]], [[Super Mario 64 DS]] into [[Super Mario 64]], [[Metal Mario (character)]] into [[Metal Mario (form)]], [[Baby Mario]] into [[Mario]], and [[Toadiko]] into [[Toadette]]. The reason why we don't merge them is because merging them are stupid; they are different characters/games/etc.. {{User:KS3/sig}} |
| This appears to be a problem only with you, CrystalYoshi. The proposal passed, and I believe it did with a vast majority. I'd definitely be willing to re-consider the proposal and revise the outcome if more people express a similar thought as yours, though at this point it seems that no one entirely minds. | | This appears to be a problem only with you, CrystalYoshi. The proposal passed, and I believe it did with a vast majority. I'd definitely be willing to re-consider the proposal and revise the outcome if more people express a similar thought as yours, though at this point it seems that no one entirely minds. |
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| I think the real problem is that both resulting articles are rather shoddy. I'm sorry, but I've been rather busy with school and personal projects, so I haven't done much more than split and do a little re-writing. Rather than worry yet again whether or not there's sufficient difference to merit the two Blue Toads and Yellow Toads as different characters, I think we should work to re-write and expand each article to a point where they can stand on their own. At that point we can certainly re-consider whether it's worth keeping them split. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 17:23, 4 April 2010 (EDT) | | I think the real problem is that both resulting articles are rather shoddy. I'm sorry, but I've been rather busy with school and personal projects, so I haven't done much more than split and do a little re-writing. Rather than worry yet again whether or not there's sufficient difference to merit the two Blue Toads and Yellow Toads as different characters, I think we should work to re-write and expand each article to a point where they can stand on their own. At that point we can certainly re-consider whether it's worth keeping them split. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 17:23, 4 April 2010 (EDT) |
| | :Okay, I guess you're right about that. I was just giving my opinion. I'm just wondering one more thing, though - KS3, what makes you so sure that they are different characters? {{User:CrystalYoshi/sig}} |
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| Well the information for this game has been leaked, and if you look at the introduction video you will notice Mario alongside three Toads. One is a Red Toad (perhaps THE Toad?), and the other two are Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. They both seem to mirror each other in the intro in the panicking scene, and are both seen to be running with Mario on his journey to save Peach with the Red Toad. Could this be an appearance of this Blue Toad himself considering that he is a hero for NSMB Wii and there is only one Blue Toad so far? [[User:Pichufan93|Pichufan93]] 16:45, 07 October 2011 (EDT) | | Well the information for this game has been leaked, and if you look at the introduction video you will notice Mario alongside three Toads. One is a Red Toad (perhaps THE Toad?), and the other two are Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. They both seem to mirror each other in the intro in the panicking scene, and are both seen to be running with Mario on his journey to save Peach with the Red Toad. Could this be an appearance of this Blue Toad himself considering that he is a hero for NSMB Wii and there is only one Blue Toad so far? [[User:Pichufan93|Pichufan93]] 16:45, 07 October 2011 (EDT) |
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| I think that it is him. Most Toads always leave everything to [[Mario]], [[Luigi]] (including Yoshi), but Yellow Toad, Blue Toad, along with a Red Toad have joined Mario. This is probably a hint that they are the same Toads. As for ''THE Toad'', he already appears in the game.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 14:09, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
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| :Sorry unless Nintendo says it's this particular Blue Toad we can't put it on the article cause that's speculation {{User|Raven Effect}}
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| == Mario Party 9 ==
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| It's the same as with ''3D Land''; what source do we have that states the playable Blue Toad from the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games and the one that hosts the minigame stuff in ''Mario Party 9'' are the same character? And what about Yellow Toad as well?
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| [[User:Toa 95|Toa 95]] ([[User talk:Toa 95|talk]])
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| I doubt this one as well. We have no information that they are they are the same. Should we just delete the information or keep it or say that they may not be the same Toad. -[[User:O O]]
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| :Guys, just leave things the way they were.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 14:28, 4 March 2013 (EST)
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| == TPP: The "Blue Toad" in ''Super Mario 3D World'' ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|green|create captain toad and move info from blue toad to toad 12-1-0}}
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| The game ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', which is due to be released in the coming days, features a playable character which is considered a Blue Toad. But, there has been much recent discussion throughout the site on whether this Blue Toad is a Blue ''[[Toad]]'', or the ''character'' [[Blue Toad (character)|Blue Toad]]. Some points were brought up that as the game included gameplay and character abilities which directly reference ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]''. In this game, Toad's [[:File:ToadwalkSMB2.gif|playable NES sprite]] was blue, but nevertheless we consider it to be the character Toad. The playable characters seen in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' include ''Toad'', Peach, Luigi as well as Mario, and this is the same line-up as seen in ''Super Mario 3D World''. So... if we can use ''SMB2'' as a precedent, then why is there a discrepancy? The reason for that is that there was [[:File:Toad Brigade Captain Artwork - Super Mario 3D World.png|another playable Toad character]] revealed, known as [[Captain Toad]], who is dressed as the Toad Brigade Captain from the ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' series. Since this appearance of Toad throughout the ''Galaxy'' series was believed to be the character "Toad" himself, then it seemed plausible to also assume that the ''look-alike'' which appears in ''SM3DW'' is also the character Toad. '''However''', there is currently no official source which backs this claim up. This appearance of the captain is officially known as "'''Captain Toad'''", not "Toad Brigade Captain". Even in the Iwata Ask, the similarities between the two were acknowledge, and it was stated by developer Koichi Hayashida, that the idea of Captain Toad was ''based on'' the concept from ''SMG''.
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| Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure,"
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| </blockquote>
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| The apparel and color is irrelevant when taking into consideration how there is a conflicting official source of the identity of this character. This brings me to my next point. In terms of the "Blue Toad", there are ''no'' official sources which refer to it as such. It's simply called "Toad" on the [http://supermario3dworld.nintendo.com/#characters official site], as well as the Iwata Asks. So therefore, why is all the info on the "Blue Toad (character)" page, and all links describing this Toad lead to this page? We need to reach a consensus on this controversial matter, and I feel that this proposal would be the best means to solve that.
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| '''Proposer:''' {{user|YoshiKong}}<br>
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| '''Deadline:''' December 4, 2013, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Create a [[Captain Toad]] article, and move the info at [[Blue Toad (character)]] to the main [[Toad]] article===
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| #{{User|YoshiKong}} – I personally feel that this is the most logical option. "Captain Toad" is portrayed in a different way to how it was seen in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and the sequel. With the new title of "Captain Toad", along with his new role in the game, I believe it's worthy of an article.
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| #{{User|GBAToad}} Per proposal. I strongly agree with creating a Captain Toad article. As for Toad, we can just say something about how his appearance in this game is based on his appearance in SMB2, though that acts as an excuse. If there's a source confirming this as the reason for the design change, I'd like to see it.
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| #{{User|Yoshi876}} Agreed, as some may know I have always considered this to be Toad, due to the fact that there is no official sources saying Blue Toad.
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| #{{User|Icemario11}} Thank goodness someone actually did this, this whole Blue Toad thing has been bugging me to no end. Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Walkazo}} - Per YoshiKong: seems like the most logical course of action.
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Per YoshiKong, it does make more sense.
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| #{{User|Randombob-omb4761}} Good idea, per all.
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| #{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} We should retain some of this information regarding ''Super Mario 3D World'' on this page to prevent some disagreements (after all, this Toad ''is'' a blue-colored Toad). Otherwise, if this Toad = Toad, then we should heed to this.
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| #{{User|MegaKoopa}} I always thought of "Blue" Toad as Toad himself, and also there's no official source calling him "Blue Toad". It bugs me Captain Toad is merged with the "Toad" article.
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| #{{User|Jazama}} Per all
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| #{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per YoshiKong.
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| ===Create a {{fake link|Toad (Super Mario 3D World)}} article===
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| This may be an alternative option, as we have the article [[Blue Toad (Super Mario Galaxy)]] for the differentiated Blue Toad in that game.
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| #{{User|Gonzales Kart Inc.}} I think this is actually most logical, since all it takes is a new article, and it would have more information.
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| ===Do bugger all===
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| ===Comments===
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| There's still a debate going on on whether the Blue Toad is THE Toad or not? I'm not really getting the proposal. [[User:DonnyKD|DonnyKD]] ([[User talk:DonnyKD|talk]]) 16:52, 22 November 2013 (EST)
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| :Many people think it is Blue Toad despite the official sources saying it's the Toad, so this proposal has probably been designed to address that. {{User|Yoshi876}}
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| ::I'm 98% sure its Blue Toad since Red Toad is already in the game as an entirely separate character. But, whatever anyway. [[User:DonnyKD|DonnyKD]] ([[User talk:DonnyKD|talk]]) 17:02, 22 November 2013 (EST)
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| == The Playable Toad is the Toad Character ==
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| I know that a proposal has recently passed to address this but I recently checked the European website for Super Mario 3D World and Toad's bio confirms that the playable Toad is the Toad Character, not Blue Toad. Here is the official profile:
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| http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Wii-U/SUPER-MARIO-3D-WORLD-765385.html
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| "Toad is the fastest of the four friends, so he’s the best bet in situations where speed is essential. Princess Peach’s loyal servant and Mario’s lifelong buddy, Toad is a plucky little fellow who’s tougher than his size implies!"
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| {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 07:45, 6 December 2013 (EST)
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| ** So then, who's Captain Toad? The Toad or just some other Toad? Actually, I'd like to hear a case of a Toad switching their cap, because I never seen that happen. [[User:DonnyKD|DonnyKD]] ([[User talk:DonnyKD|talk]]) 11:45, 7 December 2013 (EST)
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| ***Just because you never saw a Toad have their cap switched before doesn't mean that it can't happen. The point is that the blue Toad is The Toad. He has always been referred to as Toad in all sources including in-game and I provided proof with his European bio that confirms him to be Toad. The only reason you seem to disregard this is simply because Toad is wearing blue. No one knows why they made him blue. Maybe the wanted to make a reference to his SMB2 color sprite or maybe they wanted to give him a much more distinct color from the others, etc. We don't know it's all speculation, but the playable Toad is indeed The Toad.
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| As for Captain Toad, ever considered that he is a completely different character? They officially call him Captain Toad and as YoshiKong pointed it in his proposal, the Iwata Asks said that the idea of Captain Toad was based on the concept of SMG. He also appears a bit more different from the Toad Brigade Captain, given that he wears an explorers outfit and he carries a large bag on his back. Plus no other sources ever called this Toad as The Toad. Going by this, the playable Toad is The Toad while Captain Toad is a completely different character. The proposal is right from the way this is being handled. {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 08:39, 8 December 2013 (EST)
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| Sorry, but I have to question how this link proves SM3DW Toad is The Toad, and not Blue Toad from NSMB games. Canon in Mario games is not most tightly knitted, and it may change depending on how the developers see it (like they did with the Koopalings). Actually, does that description even point it out to be The Toad? I certainly don't see it. Toad species is already known to be loyal to Peach with many Not-The Toads being her servants. As for "Mario’s lifelong buddy", we know from the NSMB games that Blue and Yellow Toads are at least good friends with Mario Bros.. Therefore, that official text could be linked to both The Toad and Blue Toad, and Yellow Toad if he was a solo playable Toad. Which, by the way, would also expand to the lone playable Toad to be called just Toad.
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| As for Captain Toad, I find it a stretch that Toad Brigade Captain (considered to be The Toad himself,) and Captain Toad would be a different person based on their appearance. The quote from Iwata Asks provided above actually proves the opposite:
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| ''Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure," in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes "ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-".''
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| You know that theme. It's even referred to as Captain Toad's theme. Make whatever you want out of that. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] 19:33, 29 December 2013 (EST)
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| in the Spanish versions of Super Mario 3D World: the "Captain Toad" is named as "Jefe de Cuadrilla Toad" which in English means "Toad Brigade Captain" this indicates that Captain Toad is actually the same Toad as was in Super Mario Galaxy.
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| so I think the Toad Brigade Captain is a different character and is not true Toad as the article says. {{User|MarioYoshi2}}
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| @SmokedChili: Descriptions such "Peach's loyal servant" has always been used for bios of the The Toad character and guess what? They use the same description again on a character named TOAD. Blue Toad and Yellow Toad have never gotten descriptions like this and "Mario's Lifelong Buddy" only works on Toad because he has been around since the beginning. Attemtping to associate this description with Blue Toad is grasping at straws. All the evidence points to this Toad being the Toad character, but some of you people choose to ignore it just because he wears a blue cap. I already explained above that we don't know why they made his cap blue, but all the sources favor this character to be Toad. In fact, no one can rule out the possibility that Toads can change their clothing to another color as Toad himself has done a few times. Plus official NSMBW and NSMBU websites name the blue Toad as BLUE TOAD. The official website of SM3DW as well as in-game call this one Toad. Why not just call him Blue Toad in this game if it's not the Toad character? Why does Blue Toad use Yellow Toad's fire flower costume when he has his own costume?
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| You bring a strong point with Captain Toad, however, all sources have ever called this Toad as Captain Toad where as the playable one has been called Toad. In fact, the Iwata asks calls the playable Toad as Toad, like all other sources:
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| "Talking about cuteness reminded me of how Toad used to look pretty plain, but because he gets cat ears this time his looks cuter overall. That and with how he can quickly dash around, I think he turned into an incredibly appealing character." {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 19:43, 1 January 2014 (EST)
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| :@Smasher345: So if a Toad is called Toad, he is The Toad? Or rather, if a Toad is referred to with The Toad's name, he is The Toad? Which leads to, Toads called Toad are collectively The Toad as long as he has other titles. So I'll look at this from the point: The use of the name of The Toad can be applied to Toads with other names.
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| :I've got two points for this. First is from the section of the Iwata Asks we have quoted many times already. There we have this quote by Koizumi: "There's even gameplay this time that features Toad." He's talking about Captain Toad's levels, and this line comes directly after talking about SM3DW Toad. Before that, Iwata stated this: "It may be rude to his fans to say it like this, but Toad is a surprisingly popular character." The point is, both are referred to as Toad. We have no true definiton of which one is The Toad here.
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| :Second point comes from [http://newsupermariobrosu.nintendo.com/characters/ here], the official NSMBU site. The story section states that the Mario Bros., Toad and Peach are enjoying a dinner until Bowser and Koopalings attack with their airships. The problem is that The Toad is '''not''' there, it's actually Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. Which means that in addition to their usual names, either one can be called The Toad because they are called Toad, trademark included. So which one is it? We may never know. But it again makes the status of The Toad very ambiguous.
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| :Then there's this part of the "no other name" issue. We have [[Toad#Super Mario Galaxy trading card description|a source]] that at least implies The Toad being Toad Brigade Captain, but we also have a source linking the latter to Captain Toad. However, Captain Toad can't be either of them because there are official sources only calling him Captain Toad and because SM3DW Toad is already considered to be The Toad by this same logic. Furthermore, we have games such as ''[[Mario Superstar Baseball]]'' [[Mario Super Sluggers|and its sequel]] where a Red Toad is given the usual Toad description, and this apparently connects him to The Toad. On the other hand, both Blue and Yellow Toads are given similar text in their NSMBW bio, and neither is The Toad nor called Toad (expect that one time), but this also means they can't be in any other games as a lone playable Toad because The Toad already has all the signs of him filling that role. '''By this logic, it is okay on this wiki to merge generic or invidual Toads with The Toad as long as the name and profile match, efficiently giving him a name and appearance change in some cases, but the same can't be done for other invidual Toads, because the The Toad's name and profile can only be applied to The Toad, even if a Toad in question looks more like the other invidual Toads than The Toad.''' Granted, I have brought up evidence that seems to have gone unnoticed with these discussions, but now there's no reason to ignore it either. To further emphasize my point, check the "Game World" section of the European SM3DW site you linked. The Toad House description calls the Toad living there Toad. Does that make him The Toad? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk: SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 08.25, 2 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@SmokedChili</B>: This is how at has always been when it comes to knowing who The Toad is. If a Toad is called Toad, chances are it's most likely Toad, as that is his name. The playable Toad in 3d World is the only one to always be called Toad, all the others as you said, are only used in one instance. They will occasionally use "Toad" in the singular sense to refer to others since that is the species that they are. They commonly do this with generic enemies such as a Koopa Troopa in the spin-offs for their profiles. With all this evidence you are providing, you are basically trying to prove that there may not be a Toad character, which is wrong as there is one. According to your logic, the Toad that is playable in many spin-offs, such as Mario Kart and Mario Party, is a generic Toad, just because that Toad called Toad and it can be used for any Toad.. Despite there being an ambiguity with the way the term "Toad" is used, we use common sense to know which one is The Toad and which ones are different Toads.
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| :Your point on the NSMBU website is moot because it's obvious that those two Toads are different characters, especially when they've been officially named Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. The use of "Toad" there is a catch-all term for both Toads, even if it has the trademark. The Super Mario Galaxy trading card actually further proves my point that the description of being "Peach's loyal servant" is only ever used on Toad. Show me some other evidence that a description like that was used for another Toad. The red Toad in the baseball games is the Toad according to his Card Bio. If you want to try to argue that the Toad playable in many spin-offs is just a generic Toad, be my guest, but I highly doubt it would be changed here as the descriptions seem to imply is Toad.
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| :Also your point on the term Toad being used for only The Toad, that is correct because that is his name. If the playable Toad is Blue Toad , then there is no reason to just change Blue Toad's name to Toad if "Blue Toad" is already his official name. On top of that, if this was Blue Toad, as you try to prove, then why does he use Yellow Toad's fire costume as opposed to his own? Furthermore, the ability to run fast has commonly only been associated with Toad just as how the ability to make enemies larger or change the environment has only been associated with Kamek.
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| :Another point I want to make is that you seemingly associate the playable Toad with Blue Toad just because of his appearance. You are aware that there are other Blue Toads that look alike right? Because if thats the case, then the Blue Toad in Super Mario Sunshine and the one in Super Mario Galaxy with the glasses is the Blue Toad character and there is no evidence to suggest that. As I said before, the evidence suggests that the playable Toad is indeed the Toad character. So that leaves one question, why did they make him blue in this game? The answer is we don't know, but being blue doesn't automatically make this Toad as the Blue Toad character. I pointed out before that Toad himself has changed his clothing before such as in Super Mario 3D Land and the baseball games in which he wears red. It is likely that the cap Toads where can be changed as Super Mario Strikers seems to imply it is an accessory that they wear and the Paper Mario series show some hair sticking out underneath their caps. It's also possible they wanted to reference his SMB2 sprite in which he was blue due to graphic limitations, further supported by the many SMB2 references. I firmly believe the reason they made him Blue is to give him a more distinct color from the rest of the playable characters, especially when it comes to power-ups. This would make it easier for players to tell apart who is who between Mario and Toad. Of course it's speculation so I can't mention that in the article but I think this is the likely scenario. {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 18:22, 2 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@Smasher345</B>: If it's so easy to tell which one of the race of the generic characters is The generic character, who is also this generic character, that generic character, generic character's friend, generic character jr., poor generic character from streets and the special generic character by using common sense, then which one of those Kameks in ''Super Mario 3D World'' is The Kamek? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk: SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 19.06, 2 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@SmokedChili</B>: Did you not see me say how the term Toad is used? When I said common sense using the term, that more often than not means it will be supported with a description which is how we can tell if it's Toad or not. I said nothing about telling which Toad apart by appearance (Which is actually what you are doing with Blue Toad). Obviously Kamek doesn't appear in SM3DW. All of those are generic Magikoopas. Don't think I wouldn't know that you tried to make it seem that Kamek would appear in the game just because they are called Kameks in Europe. Magikoopas are called Kameks in Japan so this is the reason for the use of the term Kamek. You also didn't even address my other points where as I addressed yours. Also, going by what your trying to do, I'm going to ask, are you trying to say that there is no Toad character? {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 19:23, 2 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@Smasher345</B>: I was never against The Toad being his own character, but rather the generalization of other Toads being The Toad. And here's something worth adressing about Kamek. Since we both know about there being only Magikoopas, who are currently known as Kameks in PAL version, in SM3DW, this means the same could as well apply to earlier games. Like ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', where we have Kamek, a.k.a. Magikoopa in America, as a playable. This answers the certain question about him, and it's not "Why is Kamek a generic Magikoopa in NA version?" it is "Why is a generic Magikooopa Kamek in PAL version?" The answer is that it's not The Kamek, but a generic Kamek, a Magikoopa.
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| :This is the point I'm trying to drive home here. If Kamek as his own character can't anymore be proven to be The Kamek with just his name and profile, the same goes for The Toad. I mean, how does this wiki know that Toad who got robbed by Nabbit in Layer-Cake Desert in NSMBU is The Toad, who looks identical to those other Toads living in their own houses or giving Mario free items when fireworks are triggered? The name Toad can refer to The Toad, other invidual Toads (as seen on Game World part of European SM3DW site) or Toad species, it's a name with multiple meanings. Its meaning, and the meaning of those descriptions, are ultimately about the '''intented''' context. You wanted me to give evidence for The Toad's description used on other Toads? Here's what's said about Blue and Yellow Toads on official European NSMBW website: "As loyal servants to the Mushroom Kingdom throne, there's no way the Toads are about to sit back and watch Bowser and Co. bring their unsavoury schemes to fruition. Toads have aided Mario on plenty of adventures in the past, but this time around they're not just letting Mario know the princess is in another castle - they're coming along for the ride!" This matches with The Toad's description quite well. Peach's loyal servants, helpful friends for Mario, the context, it's all there.
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| :As for Blue Toad having no need to be called Toad because he is already called Blue Toad, that's because he had a buddy, who is known as Yellow Toad. SM3DW Toad is the only playable Toad of the bunch. That's two Toads in these games vs. one Toad in that game. It would only naturally make sense since it's just one Toad and the only Toad, without the need of differiating him from the other Toads.
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| :And then this whole Captain Toad issue. I have given proof that connects him to Toad Brigade Captain, who is also The Toad, of which we also have proof. Yet he can't be either, because we have a playable Toad just called Toad in SM3DW. But really, that's all the proof for that? That and the Toad profile I have proved to be interchangable, generic for any Toad? That's direct statements vs. indeterminable proof. Which means Captain Toad is more likely to be The Toad, which overrides The Toad being SM3DW Toad, who is either Blue Toad or Toad of his own. Oh, and for some implications, early SM3DW footage showed Captain Toad with The Toad's icon before it was changed to the current. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk: SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 06.40, 2 January 2014 (EST)
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| :But how about the "Mario's lifelong buddy" thing on the official website?
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| :{{User:YoshiKong/sig}} 06:46, 3 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@YoshiKong</B>:As I said, intended context. Like how the introduction text of Toad Houses in SM3DW have different words in NTSC and PAL versions, but mean essentially the same. Actually, let's look at this from gameplay perspective. In some games, mostly ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games and ''Super Mario 3D Land'', Mario is accompanied by Toads in the intro. When Bowser's plans are realized, Mario springs into action, and so do the Toads. In the latter, these Toads are found everywhere providing Mario with items. How friendly of them, I say. Anyway, in-game actions say that Toads are very devoted friends to both Mario Bros. and Princess Peach, and will help them anyway they can, but get scared easily. Every Toad in ''Super Mario'' games is like this, including Toad in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games as Toad Brigade Captain.
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| Bottom line is, Mario is a dear friend to Toads, he's there for them, and they're there for him, together helping each other to foil whatever Bowser's up to. That's why generic Toads are so easy to associate with traits that are thought to be exclusive to The Toad on this wiki. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk: SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 10.47, 2 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@SmokedChili</B>: I can see what you are saying. I'll start with the point of Kamek. I actually agree that the playable Magikoopa in Mario Party 9 is just a generic Magikoopa due to the evidence of the species being called Kamek in Europe. Unfortunately, the people in this wiki are convinced that the character is Kamek. I actually tried to argue in Kamek's talk page that the Magikoopa boss faced in Super Princess Peach's page isn't Kamek. Despite the fact that that the name of the boss is Giant Kamek, there was evidence that it wasn't Kamek such as the fact that this boss has a different Japanese name, looks different, and the glossary even says "A Kamek made huge by magic." Despite claiming all this, people just ignored it and didn't even bother arguing against the point at all, therefore leaving the info the same. Now I can see why you are arguing this and it does indeed apply to Toad as well. The term Toad does indeed cause too much of an ambiguity, and either side could potentially be right. The problem is that the wiki is convinced that most of the descriptions of a singular Toad is assumed to be The Toad, especially if a similar description is used for another singular Toad. Unless stated by Nintendo otherwise, the wiki is going to leave it like this to avoid having to rewrite all of the article of the Toad species. Doing this potentially means that there is no Toad character, since your argument pretty much means that the playable Toad in many spin-offs could very well just be a generic Toad.
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| : In addition, despite you claiming that Captain Toad is most likely the Toad character with the statement that you provided, your argument that the term "Toad" can be used for any individual Toad can also be used against Captain Toad being The Toad. No one would have known that the Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad if it weren't for the SMG trading card. However, the people are convinced that the description of the card is the reason why the Toad Brigade Captain is the Toad. If the description of the card is no different from the other descriptions that can be used on any individual Toad, then how do we know that the Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad when it could also just be another Toad according to what you are arguing? This is the kind of ambiguity people are trying to avoid and that is why they associate similar descriptions to The Toad.
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| : I can also bring up the fact that Toad has his own Japanese name, where he is called キノピオ (meaning Kinopio). The Toad species' Japanese name is Kinoko. People used Toad's Japanese name to figure out who is The Toad. A conflict, however, came up when they used Toad's Japanese name for both Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. The Japanese trailer of SM3DW and pretty much in-game call the playable Toad as キノピオ or Kinopio, which is The Toad's Japanese name. The difference, however, is that Blue Toad and Yellow Toad's Japanese names include the color in addition to Toad's Japanese name. Blue Toad is called Ao Kinopio while Yellow Toad is called Kīro Kinopio. Going by this, one can easily conclude that the playable Toad is most certainly The Toad and that the names of the two other Toads is in fact, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. The use of Kinopio likely means that the name of a Toad has the word "Toad" as part of their name. {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 15:16, 3 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@Smasher345</B>: For a Toad to be The Toad, that's where I use a combination of set physical appearance, in-game portrayal and written evidence, taking one or another first and then expanding using the others. It may not be different from other users here, sure, but I am stricter in this sense. To give you a clear picture, I consider the red-spotted, blue-vested Toads to be the "control group" of Toad species, as that used to be their only design. The occurence of the control group in different games vary from just one such Toad (SM3DL and some spin-offs) to them inhabitating every single area (NSMB games). Among this control group, there is The Toad, who will be easy enough to recognize if he's the only control group Toad. That's where I use the rest of the ways to see if they expand his appearance or role, and in case of SMG, he becomes Toad Brigade Captain.
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| :Speaking of him, as you said, how would I indeed know if he is The Toad based on my own arguments? Maybe he really isn't, because The Toad is still a generic Toad, which all have barely their own definitions, if any. Toad Brigade Captain, on the other hand, stands out well enough because he is defined clearly as the captain of his brigade. Frankly, even with acknowlegded evidence, I '''don't''' believe Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad as defined here, but I do believe he is Captain Toad by my personal opinion and evidence that points to it.
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| :But really, even if people here try to prevent ambiguity by making other Toads The Toad, that would be from certain viewpoint manipulating evidence to preserve a status quo, which in this case is "All Toads called by the name of Toad are The Toad, who we define as his own character". I've been thinking about it, and based on these conversations I have come to a conclusion that the article Toad (character) and that which defines it is outdated. I'd prefer to change it into Toad (general), with the definiton of "This page contains all major Toads who go simply by the name Toad and their extensions based on official material". It would give freedom to have SM3DW Toad there, it would give a chance to keep Toad Brigade Captain there based on that trading card, it could also give a chance to move Captain Toad to that article, or move Toad Brigade Captain to Captain Toad's article. Really, the only big change would be article definition change, which wouldn't change the article itself. Because, you know, a bunch of Toads generally defined as The Toad would still be a bunch of Toads, just without that definition which feels like "forced ascertainty" to me.
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| :Even if that won't be accepted, my point about Captain Toad being The Toad via their connection to Toad Brigade Captain still stands by this wiki's definition of The Toad. The problem is just SM3DW Toad, whose name and profile are lesser evidence to me compared to Toad Brigade Captain's theme being called Captain Toad's theme by the developers. Long story short, it's a loophole in common sense.
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| :And about those Japanese names... I know about Toad's, and I think I knew what the Toad species' was. So your right about that, but I remember also seeing very recently someone saying on another talk page they were called just "Kinopios" in developers' notes. I'll see what I can discover about this around the net. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk: SmokedChili|Talk]]) ([[User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page|Thoughts]]) 08.30, 5 January 2014 (EST)
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| <B>@SmokedChili:</B> I suppose that could work for all Toads if the article were to be created but I doubt the wiki would accept it. You are right about the statement pretty much confirming that Captain Toad is the Toad Brigade Captain. However, do know that people associate the Toad Brigade Captain with Toad because of his description, you can even see how people argued about it in Toad's talk page. The Toad Brigade Captain's in-game portrayal can't really be used to connect to The Toad as that is the first time a Toad has been shown with the role of a captain. The appearance wouldn't have helped neither as many Toads can appear with the red color as well. This is why they used the description which matches descriptions used on the past for The Toad. Currently, the playable Toad in SM3DW has a bio that also matches this description and "Mario's lifelong buddy" is just too much of a strong description to be used on just any ordinary Toad except The Toad, who has appeared since the very first Super Mario Bros. game. This Toad also has The Toad's known ability to run fast and is called Kinopio in Japan. I'm currently checking to see about the use of Kinopio on the NSMB Toads as well, to see if it is true that developers used Kinopio on those Toads. I won't deny the possibility of this Toad to be Blue Toad, but this wiki is known to just make assumptions for Blue Toad. Ever since Blue Toad has been introduced, the wiki has all of a sudden started assuming that every single Blue Toad that makes an appearance is automatically considered the Blue Toad character when there is no evidence to prove otherwise. The same is done with Yellow Toad. They have already done this for both Mario Party 9 and Mario Party Island Tour, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it again for another game. However, it certaintly does create a conflict of which Toad is The Toad, the playable one or Captain Toad. The developers statement would imply that Captain Toad is indeed The Toad, especially when the Toad Brigade Captain is considered The Toad on this wiki. On the other hand, the playable Toad can also be The Toad due to his bio description, constantly being called Toad, having the fast running ability, and the use of Kinopio in Japan. Making one the Toad, contradicts the other.
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| :On a side note, I want to mention that if the developers really wanted to establish the Blue Toad character and if it is him in SM3DW, then they would have indeed used his fire color costume. You did say that the use of "Toad" and Yellow Toad's fire costume is used on Blue Toad because he is the only one playable out of the Two Toads from the NSMB games and that pretty much wouldn't have made a difference. But by your logic, Luigi should have just used Mario's fire costume color in New Super Luigi U, since that was Luigi's original fire costume and Mario doesn't make an appearance at all, so it wouldn't have made a difference either. That can possibly mean that this playable Toad could just be a different Toad or it could also be The Toad based on a couple of evidence. Plus, as The Toad is the most iconic and most established of all Toads, it wouldn't be surprising if they decided to use him to represent all Toads, which would explain the use of Blue Toad's color and Yellow Toad's fire costume.
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| : Honestly, none of us wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't Nintendo making one individual of a generic species have the same name as his/her species and giving them the same appearance as their species with no unique visual characteristics. They have already done this with Toad, Yoshi, Birdo, Boom Boom, and Kamek. And on top of that, they cause even more ambiguity by just simply slapping the term of the species on some individuals as if that is what their name is instead of using the plural form or saying things like "A Toad" or This Toad." I personally believe this was a bad decision on the developers part and unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it would be changing anytime soon. {{User:Smasher345/sig}} 13:22, 6 January 2014 (EST)
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| ''jesus christ''. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 14:22, 6 January 2014 (EST)
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| == Blue Toad = Red Toad? ==
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| Are you guys really going with the idea that the blue-spotted Toad in SM3DW is the same character as the red-spotted Toad in previous games (and for the recond, Toad in SMB2 has always had red spots canonically)? Despite the fact that the red-spotted Captain Toad appears at the end of SM3DW with what is obviously the Toad Brigade sans blue Toad (because blue Toad is already with Mario)? And despite the Super Mario Galaxy collector card bio of Toad that states that he is the Toad Brigade captain (unlike that European website bio of blue Toad which just states that blue Toad is Peach's loyal servant and Mario's lifelong friend, which could easily apply to multiple Toads)? And despite the picture of the Toad Brigade in Mario Galaxy that shows Captain Toad wearing a blue vest? And despite the fact that we have no reason to believe that the mushroom caps are not physically part of the Toads' head's, and thus not changeable?
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| The fact that the blue Toad in SM3D World is called "Toad" instead of "Blue Toad" just means that his name is also Toad. The Toads' colors have never been stated to be a part of their names. [[User:Buddy Christ|Buddy Christ]] ([[User talk:Buddy Christ|talk]])
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| :This has already been discussed extensively above, but I personally am not fully satisfied, either. However, I will state that Toad's cap can possibly be removed as if it were a hat (though I personally always saw it as part of his head, given it is homologous with the heads of real-life mushrooms and because Toadette's pigtails come from her own "cap". It'd be weird if she could just take it off). In addition, whenever the Toad from ''Super Mario 3D World'' is brought up, he is always simply referred to as "Toad" and official descriptions of the character suggest it is [[Toad|''the'' Toad]], not the Blue Toad from the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series. (Here's an example of what I'm referring too: [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Wii-U/SUPER-MARIO-3D-WORLD-765385.html Nintendo UK, ''Super Mario 3D World''].) Others have argued that the reason why Toad has blue spots in ''3D World'' is in homage to ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'': like ''3D World'', the title featured Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad as playable characters, and in this title, Toad's sprite was blue, not red. While I agree that is a sound and probable explanation, I'm still a bit skeptical because Nintendo never clarified this at all (probably because Mario canon is not their priority when developing their games).
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| :Here's what I personally think is true: the playable Toad in ''Super Mario 3D World'' was originally the Blue Toad from ''NSMB'', but changes during the game's development cycle changed how the developers interpreted the blue-spotted Toad as ''the'' Toad. My reasons for believing this are as followed:
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| :1. [[Peach]] was originally not going to be a playable character in ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'' (reference:[https://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4421244/nintendo-thinking-on-a-different-frequency-with-playable-princess Polygon interview with Yoshiaki Koizumi]]. It was only decided later on in development. This is an interesting piece of trivia: knowing how Nintendo prioritize gameplay innovations first-and-formost - and knowing that ''3D World'''s biggest draw was being a multiplayer 3D ''Mario'' game, it was likely designed to be a 4-player game right from the start. But if Peach was not playable, who was the fourth playable character originally going to be?
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| :2. Based on the previous observation, I feel like the jump from the single-player ''3D Land'' to ''3D World'' is very similar to how ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' - another 4-player platformer - succeeded from the original single-player ''New Super Mario Bros.'' on DS. ''NSMBW'' was the game that introduced Blue Toad and Yellow Toad as playable characters alongside Mario and Luigi for 4-player co-op.
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| :3. From the previous two observations, I think ''Super Mario 3D World'' started development with Mario, Luigi, Blue Toad, and Yellow Toad as playable characters. Peach was a later addition that resulted in Yellow Toad being scrapped. Blue Toad remained, but was simply dubbed "Toad" because specifying that he is "blue" is unnecessary: he is the ONLY playable Toad. This decision likely made them realize the similarities between ''SMB2'' and their game, so they decided to adopt Blue Toad as ''the'' Toad instead. I'm also guessing that it was around this time that [[Captain Toad]] began to take on his own identity. I think the character as he appears in the ''Galaxy'' games was supposed to be ''the'' Toad, but in ''3D World'' it was conceptually odd to have the same character both in regular levels and through this special Captain Toad levels, in addition to looking distinct from one another.
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| :To answer your original question, I do think the Toad in ''3D World'' was originally Blue Toad, but in execution is ''the'' original Toad.[[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:09, 19 June 2017 (EDT)
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| == Mario Party Toads ==
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| This was raised several sections up: is there any confirmation that the Blue Toad and Yellow Toad hosts in the Mario Party series are the same ones from the NSMB series? Do they actually say "Hi I'm Blue/Yellow Toad" in-game or anything? {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 19:58, 2 December 2018 (EST)
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| :Yeah, these always seemed iffy to me, like the same thing as saying "all playable Koopa Troopas are the same Koopa Troopa", for example. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:00, 2 December 2018 (EST)
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| ==Remove/split information about the Mario Party series from Blue and Yellow Toad==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|10-3-1|remove all information}}
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| Despite being brought up [[Talk:Blue Toad (character)#Mario Party 9|twice]] [[Talk:Blue Toad (character)#Mario Party Toads|before]], no one has been able to produce any proof that Blue Toad and Yellow Toad from the NSMB games are the same ones that appear in the Mario Party series; we also have no proof that the Blue and Yellow Toads within the Mario Party series are even the same character in each game. Therefore, it is nothing but speculation and the same situation as "this character must be Toad/Yoshi/Kamek/etc." which we've been trying to avoid. I have two suggestions for what to do with this:
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| *'''Remove the information entirely.''' I personally prefer this solution, as like I said it's speculation that it's the same Toad every time. I also don't necessarily feel that they have an important enough role to have their own pages.
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| *'''Split the information off onto their own pages.''' This would provide somewhere for the information to go, and would be consistent with [[Green Toad (Mario Party 9)]].
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| Also, if this proposal passes, the pages could be moved to the identifier (''New Super Mario Bros.'' series), or something similar, which is a ''much'' better identifier than just (character), as other Toads named Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are obviously characters as well.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': July 15, 2019, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Remove the information entirely====
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal.
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| #{{user|Mario jc}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|7feetunder}} I always thought this setup was weird. Information on the ''MP'' Toads can just go on the [[Toad (species)]] article; it's not like they're more important than, for instance, the colored Toads from ''[[Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon]]''.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all.
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| #{{User|TheDarkStar}}-Per all.
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| #{{User|SmokedChili}} I'm against Green Toad having its Mario Party host page in the first place and think the info on the species article would be enough. That applies here too. Per all.
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| #{{User|bwburke94}} Per all, especially SmokedChili. The species page is enough.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} A merge seems plausible.
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| ====Split the information off onto their own pages====
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} My second choice.
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| #{{User|LudwigVon}} Personally, I think they should have their own pages. [[Tumble|Almost]] [[Brighton|every]] [[Twila|hosts]] ([[Shy Guy (Mario Party 4)|if]] [[Goomba (Mario Party 4)|not]] [[Koopa Troopa (Mario Party 4)|all]] [[Boo (Mario Party 4)|of]] [[MC Ballyhoo|them]]) [[Big Top|in]] the ''Mario Party'' series, as their own pages, it would just be plain awkward for the Yellow Toad and Blue Toad to not having one.
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| #{{User|Baby Luigi}} If Green Toad gets his own page related to the Mario Party series, I fail to see why these characters can't. They're also semi-recurring characters, appearing in 9, 10, Island Tour, and Super Mario Party with rather consistent roles. I feel like this is the best option.
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| <s>#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal. This seems to be the most plausible option.</s>
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| ====Do nothing====
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} <s>Second option, in case the second option does not pass.</s> A Blue Toad is always a Blue Toad? It's always the same iteration no matter which Blue Toad it is. They're the same species, and that'd mostly confuse readers.
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| ====Comments====
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| My view is to merge them into '''Toad (Playable)'''.--[[User:Tyughvbn|Tyughvbn]] ([[User talk:Tyughvbn|talk]]) 02:19, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
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| :But the ''Mario Party'' Toads mentioned in the proposal aren't playable. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 02:30, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::I think it's more appropriate to distinguish importance by playability, and if they're not playable, it doesn't seem to require separate pages, or you can create another '''Toad (host)''' page. Anyway, if can't prove that they are the same character, it should be named according to the nature of their work.--[[User:Tyughvbn|Tyughvbn]] ([[User talk:Tyughvbn|talk]]) 02:55, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
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| By the way, if anyone is worried about consistency with option 1, I'll also propose the deletion of [[Green Toad (Mario Party 9)]] if it passes.
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| @LudwigVon: The difference here is nearly all of those characters you listed are unique individuals, and the generic enemies are differentiated from every other member of their species by their outfits. These guys are just generic colored Toads and don't stand out in any way. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:09, July 3, 2019 (EDT)
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| :"''the generic enemies are differentiated from every other member of their species by their outfits.''"; well's that's not how it technically start if you [[:File:MP4 credits 1.png|look at Mario Party 4's credit]]. They just start out as generic enemies who then became host with outfits which goes with the theme of their boards. Because this Yellow and Blue Toads don't have a different outfits from normal yellow and blue Toads doesn't mean they shouldn't have their own page. --{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}
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| ::That they start off being generic isn't the point, they get a distinguishing characteristic and then have it throughout the rest of the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:19, July 4, 2019 (EDT)
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| :Deleting the Green Toad (Mario Party 9) page? Don't you mean merging it with Toad? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:22, July 4, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::Um... No? Option 1 is removing the information on the Toads from the pages entirely rather than splitting it off, and deleting Green Toad would be consistent with that. I don't really care what happens to the information afterwards. It could be put on the Toad (species) page, but its Mario Party series section is currently a bit of a mess and would have to be cleaned up and expanded. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:19, July 4, 2019 (EDT)
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| @FanOfYoshi: This is not a catch-all page for every single appearance of a Blue Toad in the franchise, it's for the Blue Toad character from the NSMB games, same for Yellow Toad. If that was the case, this page would be woefully insufficient. We merged the colored Yoshis, we absolutely do not need catch-all pages for colored Toads. Also, are you implying that [[Hint Toad]], [[Russ T.]], and other characters should also be a part of this page because they have blue caps? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:12, July 5, 2019 (EDT)--{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:12, July 5, 2019 (EDT)
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| :Sorry, i misinterpreted your proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:14, July 5, 2019 (EDT)
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| I find that Blue Toad and Yellow Toad, from New Super Mario Bros. Wii, having their own page is a problem in of itself, and removing the information from Mario Party due to a lack of "proof" is arbitrary as there's honestly no way of determining if the Blue Toad in other appearances are the same Blue Toad either other than continuity extrapolation (though are the Mario Party 9 Toads not continuity inferences too given the common familiar setting and references to New Super Mario Bros. Wii in Mario Party 9?). Are we also removing the Blue Toad information from ''Mario Sports Superstars''? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:06, July 5, 2019 (EDT)
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| :I see no issue with the Mario Sports Superstars sections, as their use of NSMB series power-ups makes it clear that they are intended to be the Toads from those games. Notice how it neglects to mention the colored Toads that actually are playable but have no connection to the NSMB ones. I would support removing Blue Toad's Mario Kart Arcade GP DX section, though. While MP9 does have some NSMBWii influences, I don't really buy this as solid proof of them being the same Toads. Keep in mind that Blue and Yellow Toad have very generic designs and [[:File:Toad Species Super Mario Sunshine.png|were by no means the first to look like that]]. There's about as much connection between them as you could argue for Banktoad being the green Toad who hosts the Almost There! event in MP9. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:01, July 6, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::Saying that we don't have "proofs" that they're the same is arbitrary. I agree with Bazooka Mario! This proposal is counterproductive. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:14, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::It's not just that there's no proof, there's no connection between these Toads whatsoever other than their color, and the NSMB Toads are far from the first to just be generic blue and yellow Toads. The argument of them potentially being the same because MP9 had some NSMBWii influences is flimsy in my opinion; though I admit I'd be more open to this explanation if a green Toad wasn't also present. By this logic we might as well start adding every single generic blue and yellow Toad to these pages and saying it's the same character, and at that point we'd probably need a page for every Green Toad, Purple Toad etc. and then we'd just have another Toad/Yoshi/Kamek on our hands. To me, considering these Toads the same would be the same as saying every single Koopa Troopa that's playable in a sports game happens to be the same one. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:45, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::If it were to pass, would it at least be merged to [[Toad (species)]]? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:48, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::::A full-blown merge might be going overboard, but it should be covered there in some capacity. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:27, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::::Fine by me. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:45, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| What about the Toads in [[Super Mario Maker 2]]'s Story Mode? [[List of Super Mario Maker 2 quotes|They are officially named Red Toad, Blue Toad, Purple Toad, etc.]] Will we have separate article for each of them, merge them into [[Toad (species)]], or consider them the same as other toads with their names? {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 10:49, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| :I don't have Mario Maker 2, so I have no idea what their context is or what to do with them. Looking at their quotes, Yellow Toad is closer to the Toad Brigade member than the NSMB Yellow Toad, but as pointed out elsewhere none of the other Toads seem to retain any of the Brigade members' characteristics. It's probably best as a discussion for another time. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:24, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
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| == LM3 Toads ==
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| Do ''the'' Blue Toad and Yellow Toad appear in ''Luigi's Mansion 3'' or is this yet another case of the above... {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 05:28, November 3, 2019 (EST)
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| == Restrict Blue Toad and Yellow Toad information ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|cancelled}}
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| There seems to be a repeat of the above issue in that information is being added to this page without proof that this is in fact the Blue Toad character from the ''NSMB'' series (same goes for [[Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series)|Yellow Toad]]). As far as I know, ''Luigi's Mansion 3'' does not refer to these blue and yellow Toads as specifically "Blue Toad" and "Yellow Toad" (only generically as "Toads"), just like with the issue we had with the ''Mario Party'' Toads in the above proposal. So as an extension to that and as a rule for the future, I propose that the information on this page should be restricted to information about the ''NSMB'' character and his appearances/cameos in other media (like ''Mario Sports Superstars'', ''Mario-Kun'' etc.) where it is confirmed that it ''is'' that character, which means removing information on ''Luigi's Mansion 3'', ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'' and the blue- and yellow-coloured Toads in the Story Mode hub in ''Mario Maker 2'' and covering them on [[Toad (species)]] <s>(though yellow's is on [[Yellow Toad (Toad Brigade)]] for some reason; that should be removed, too)</s>. This will hopefully clear up confusion with coverage and linking on other articles.
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| If there is in fact proof of the contrary, please leave a comment.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Mario jc}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': June 21, 2020, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|Mario jc}} These Toad pages really need reorganising.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal, personally I was skeptical about their appearances in LM3 and SMM2 but was wondering if there was something I was missing, guess not though.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. Especially in the case of the ''Luigi's Mansion 3'' Blue Toad, as his role seems similar to the Blue Toad's role in ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon'', who is just covered on the [[Toad (species)]] page. The other unconfirmed appearances would also fit better on that page.
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| #{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} I'm not without my doubts, but this is at least a step in the right direction. Per Mario jc.
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| #{{User|Duckfan77}} Per all.
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} While I agree coverage on this needs to change, this would only be making the problem worse. Splitting the recurring single-instance five-color-array Toads into a zillion speculatively separate articles would be like having a separate article for every subseries appearance of the Yoshi character, whom we know to himself not actually be a singular character and have variances in personality depending on iteration. Additionally, classic "Cranky" DK vs modern DK. What we ''should'' do is similar to how those cases already are, ie list them as the same character concept on one page each while acknowledging they are not necessarily the same or different as any other iteration of the character. Merging bits to the "Toad (species)" article is also not the best idea at this juncture, since in SMM2 "[color] Toad" is used explicitly as the characters' birth-given names.
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| ===Comments===
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| I think the Yellow Toad information is the way it is now because he sleeps just like the Yellow Toad from the Brigade. That said, it's still not decisive enough evidence to work with on its own. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 04:49, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :You're right, I'll strike that part out. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 06:32, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::Honestly, at this point, I think the best thing to do is treat all generic single-use Toad "characters" of a color as equal, barring Captain Toad. In SMM2, Purple Toad says that that's indeed his name because his parents weren't the creative types, and with Yellow Toad invoking the SMG ones, it seems Nintendo's ultimately just pick-and-choose with the same basic concept of a character's attributes (like Blue Toad's glasses). And in case anyone asks about "Banktoad" and "Hint Toad," those were only used within the relevant contexts and as such seem more like nicknames from a game design standpoint (ie Green Toad is only called "Banktoad" on the Starship Mario). The current setup haphazardly spreads information that is really only hazily differentiated in speculative ways while treating it as fact. Also, why is the Purple Toad in SMO assumed to be Mailtoad if we're not already doing this? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:08, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::If I'm understanding this right, you're saying there should be a page for each Toad color, and every instance of a colored Toad character should be covered on those pages? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:09, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::A singular (or at least specific prominent, given SMG/2's openings) instance when grouped with the other four, with emphasis on specified name appearances. Given SMM2 literally states "[color] Toad" is their actual names, it seems foolish to split SMG series Yellow Toad and NSMB series Yellow Toad, with the MP series one lost to limbo, when the distinction is speculative at best. I'm thinking like how not ''all'' Yoshi characters named Yoshi are the same as each other, but are still ''a'' "Yoshi character," hence why they are merged. Additionally, original vs modern DK. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:15, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::I think if this proposal succeeds, Blue Toad's "character" identifier needs to be replaced with Yellow Toad's "''New Super Mario Bros.'' series" identifier because, if we're being honest, they have no real character in these games - they are just stand-ins for the third and fourth playable character after Mario and Luigi. That said, they are mentioned on the {{file link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|main}} {{file link|EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt2.jpg|characters}} section of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' over the Toad Brigade, and the fact that they are capable of adventuring with the Mario Bros. is notable in itself for the average Toad. I do believe that ''Super Mario Maker 2'' somewhat blends together the Toad Brigade with the playable ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series Toads, since the ''New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe'' crew are the playable characters, the Toadette has a special role in the similar group, and Yellow Toad and Blue Toad resemble their ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series appearance while the former takes on his Toad Brigade personality that was missing in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' (and then there's the big question if Toad from ''Super Mario 3D World'', and by extension ''Super Mario Maker 2'', is supposed to be [[Talk:Toad#Reopening a can of worms|Blue Toad]], especially being "the" Toad as a single character otherwise no longer really exists). Also, it's strongly implied that the Mailtoad and Banktoad aren't actually names so much as their role in the group, which doesn't apply to every appearance and is probably true of Hint Toad as well. So I agree with some sort of reorganization, but I'm not sure about the optimal implementation at the moment. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:15, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::That's not what the character identifier is for, though. Having the personality of a cardboard box doesn't make him any less of a character. In Yellow Toad's case the "New Super Mario Bros. series" identifier is solely used to distinguish him from the identically-named Toad Brigade member. There's currently no one else named "Blue Toad" worth giving an article, hence no conflicting identifiers, therefore the title is fine as is. EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure if Blue Toad even needs an identifier at all at this point. Priority is currently given to the disambig, but none of the other articles listed there are actually named Blue Toad, they just happen to be blue Toads. The about template says basically everything that needs to be said, I think we might be able to move this page to Blue Toad and axe the disambiguation altogether. More than likely it's a leftover from when Hint Toad's article was also named Blue Toad. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:25, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::The proposal will be "removing information on ''Mario Kart Arcade GP DX'' and the blue- and yellow-coloured Toads in the Story Mode hub in ''Mario Maker 2''", so these named colors would be treated as separate entities. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::Nothing was said about splitting the pages, so I interpreted it as the information would probably just be covered in the Toad species article. If we do end up creating more Blue Toad pages though then I do agree with giving this Blue Toad the "New Super Mario Bros. series" identifier. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:38, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::Yes, but they are still named after their colors in those appearances just like (until recently) the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' series Toads, so writing it off as "the" Blue Toad character is misleading. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:48, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::The character identifier isn't trying to make a "canonical" argument though, it only exists for the purposes of wiki organization after all. It's not saying "this is THE character named Blue Toad", just "this is the only character named Blue Toad that we gave a page". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:21, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::Except I'm certain we do organize things from a franchise point of view instead of strictly a wiki one? After all, Big Bertha (Blaster) isn't Big Bertha (enemy). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:39, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::That looks like another case of leftovers to me though, "Big Bertha (enemy)" would've been an insufficient description since that was before the Boss Bass/Big Bertha merger, meaning there were two articles about enemies named Big Bertha at the time. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:46, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::And I wouldn't agree to moving the identifier now because, again, that can give a false impression and confuse readers. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::In that case you might want to propose some changes to how we handle identifiers, since both leaving Big Bertha with the Blaster identifier and the proposed Blue Toad move seem to go against [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining the identifier]]. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:21, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::::A "subject" doesn't always have its own article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:52, June 8, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::::"In Yellow Toad's case the "New Super Mario Bros. series" identifier is solely used to distinguish him from the identically-named Toad Brigade member." Saying he ''is'' a different character is an unsafe speculative assumption, though. They don't even look different. As for the laziness thing, Luigi's cowardice doesn't show in NSMB games either. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:39, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| If this proposal would pass, would the extra information simply be removed and added to the [[Toad (species)]] article, or would they be split into their own articles? I voted under the impression that the information would be moved to the Toad (species) article, as I agree that making tons of separate articles is unnecessary. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 15:13, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Yes, and perhaps I should've made that clear: I'm not saying the ''GPDX'', ''LM3'' and ''SMM2'' entities should be split into separate articles, but rather cover them on the more appropriate article like with the ''MP'' Toads, which is [[Toad (species)]]. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:21, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::And why ''should'' those be restricted to that article? Especially in the case of SMM2, where "[color] Toad" is explicitly the actual given-by-parents name of at least one of them? That makes him just as (if not ''more'') deserving of his own article than the MPA "characters" who were simply that game's iteration of the respective species in most cases. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:13, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::Gave it some thought and what I might do then is, since this is a much broader matter, replace this proposal with a more general one that determines how the coloured Toad character articles should be organised, incorporating your suggestion above for single "[colour] Toad" character pages. I am curious about "emphasis on specified name appearances" though; you said "emphasis" and not "exclusivity". {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 08:27, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::Because if, say, Green Toad isn't referred to as anything in one game but the other colors are (primarily with the "[color] Toad" names), it seems silly to nix that one from that article. (Also, starting to think maybe the "Toad" in the ''Sunshine'' cast page was itself referring to the species in general, since Pianta and Noki are handled similarly....) Now, the main exception to this would be Red Toad. Captain Toad is his own thing by now, and sometimes the position seems to be filled by what is indicated to be "the" Toad. SMM2 has a "Red Toad" as a worker while it's implied Taskmaster is the "main" Toad, so that's a case of distinction. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:49, June 9, 2020 (EDT)
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