Editing Talk:Block (Super Mario 64)

==The state of this page==
This page has a good amount of misnomer to its inception. In SM64, there were two sizes of a single, cork-textured object called "Block." The big ones were stationary and could be broken, and the small ones thrown. In SM64DS, these two sizes were diverged into two separate objects under the "Block" umbrella term, with the large one taking on a brick texture and being called "Brick" ("[[Brick Block]]") in Japanese, while the smaller ones are given a boarded texture and renamed "[[Crate]]s." While technically "crate" was in use prior in regards to "[[Crazed Crate]]," that seems more like alliteration fun than a statement on its fellow objects IMO. Additionally, two new types of Block were added, being Black Brick and Ice. Now, this page currently only covers the large type(s), while the small type is merged to Crate wholesale. Do to this bothersome, misleading inconsistency, I propose one of two options:
*Merge the SM64 depiction of "crate" back here while merging the SM64DS depiction of "Brick" to "Brick Block" (which it pretty much already is)
*Merge the "large" SM64 Block to Brick Block wholesale, noting the corkish texture as an attribute that was lost in the remake to make it distinct (and before you say that being a cork-textured cube automatically makes it not a Brick Block, it also automatically makes the small one not a crate either).<br>
On a related note, in the [[Throwback Galaxy]], the large Blocks were replaced by SMG series crates. So that indicates towards the first option, though the second would probably be smoother. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:14, May 23, 2020 (EDT)
:I agree that something should be done about ''Super Mario 64'' blocks, but I think splitting the articles of objects that are simply functionally identical between ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario 64 DS'' is counterproductively splitting hairs. I figure that the large-sized block was mainly retextured as a tribute to Brick Blocks, but are not the same thing. For one thing, the large block/Brick is usually on the ground, whereas in most all appearance, Brick Blocks are normally seen floating. Second, the iconic act of breaking a Brick Block from below is not possible even in the large blocks/Bricks that are found in midair (which I've confirmed to be reachable in Hazy Maze Cave [at least on DS] and Dire, Dire Docks), and yes, I tested this with all characters. I find it really hard to believe that the programmers would overlook something so emblematic to the series as a whole, especially since the ! Blocks and ? Blocks are still more obviously broken by hitting from below and the traditional jump pose was pretty much built around it. Third, the DS internal names refer to the basic large Block/Brick as <tt>BLOCK_L</tt> and the small block/Crate as <tt>BLOCK_S</tt>. I find that odd when other subjects such as Snufit (<tt>YUREI_MUCHO</tt>) and Kuromame (<tt>KERONPA</tt>) were renamed, and additionally, I'll cite those two precedents as examples of why splitting the same object revised with a coat of paint between versions leads to cumbersome writing. So to sum it up, I think we should leave Brick Block out of it - the characteristics are clearly atypical, and existing references as the large blocks being reskinned to resemble it is fine enough. Going along with that, I also suggest the small block/Crate be kept together. Note that ''Super Mario 64 DS'' considers the game's Crate to be a small block and are even specified as a type of block in the manual, which is something that shouldn't really be applicable to the entire crate article. It's also worth pointing out that there is an extra-large version of Brick not mentioned in the manual that appears very rarely (I've only noticed one in Whomp's Fortress, covering a Star Switch). It's about the same size as Ice and the pushable block, which currently doesn't have an article. Another thing to consider is that the gravity-undefied blocks that appear in ''Mario Party''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Box Mountain Mayhem look to be neither the small nor large blocks that appeared in ''Super Mario 64'' - Crazed Crates are technically a size between the two, so you can say that the minigame's blocks are regular-sized to blend in (though these blocks share the same design as Crazed Crate sans face so they might not actually be the same thing). For now, I'm sidestepping the Black Brick since it can be considered a color variant of the orange extra-large Brick, though I don't feel strongly about it. With all that into account, I propose different options:
*Remove the ''Mario Party'' box info from Block (''Super Mario 64''), and split the small block/Crate as Crate (''Super Mario 64''). Basically, these are essentially treated as three separate objects with different behavior.
*Move the small block/Crate info to Block (''Super Mario 64''), and rename the article to Box (''Super Mario 64''). Basically, these are multiple versions of the same basic object whose size affects how they're interacted.
:This isn't even getting into the three different forms of Ice Block (four if you count that bridge at the end of Big Penguin Race, although it's part of the level geometry), which apparently has more types in other games. That warrants a look too. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:37, May 23, 2020 (EDT)
::Ice Block's always been bothersome to me, I mean, SMB3 section has throwable and platform. Anyways, I think the fact that the JP manual goes beyond retexturing and literally calls it "Brick Block" makes that argument really shaky. Also, it can be argued that they can only be broken from below while under the effects of the Super Mushroom, which ''is'' normal. And while the Super Mushroom itself is nonstandard in this game, it's decently similar to SMG's Fire Flower in that manner. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:03, May 24, 2020 (EDT)
:::[https://m1.nintendo.net/docvc/NTR/JPN/ASMJ/ASMJ_J.pdf Technically,] the Japanese manual refers to it as レンガ (''Renga'', Brick), not レンガブロック (''Renga Burokku'', Brick Block), just like the English version. Admittedly, "''renga''" was the name used in the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros.'' manual, but it seems rather odd that they would modernize the game by using an ancient name that not even ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' would remember. Although "brick" was the name used in English versions of the older ''Mario'' series manuals as late as ''New Super Mario Bros.'', but in Japan, it was consistently ''Renga Burokku'' since at least ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. Also, the mushroom breaks any normal block upon touch, including Ice, Crazed Crate, and the pushable block. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:59, May 24, 2020 (EDT)
::::Must have misremembered, how silly of me. Regardless, the lack of a "Block" identifier is shared with Ice Block simply being "Ice," so to me it looks more like a way to avoid redundancy (since the above header does indeed call them all blocks). Not to mention they are not "bricks" themselves, but merely made from them. With crate again being an outlier, it looks more like "Block ''of'' Brick/Black Brick/Ice" to me. That being said, the fact that ! and ? Blocks are listed separate from them bears consideration (? with the switch and ! in an "other objects"-type section). Regardless, I consider this an alternative role given to Brick Block retroactively, even if it doesn't quite mesh with its typical properties. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:22, May 24, 2020 (EDT)
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 :::[https://m1.nintendo.net/docvc/NTR/JPN/ASMJ/ASMJ_J.pdf Technically,] the Japanese manual refers to it as レンガ (''Renga'', Brick), not レンガブロック (''Renga Burokku'', Brick Block), just like the English version. Admittedly, "''renga''" was the name used in the Japanese ''Super Mario Bros.'' manual, but it seems rather odd that they would modernize the game by using an ancient name that not even ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' would remember. Although "brick" was the name used in English versions of the older ''Mario'' series manuals as late as ''New Super Mario Bros.'', but in Japan, it was consistently ''Renga Burokku'' since at least ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. Also, the mushroom breaks any normal block upon touch, including Ice, Crazed Crate, and the pushable block. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:59, May 24, 2020 (EDT)
 ::::Must have misremembered, how silly of me. Regardless, the lack of a "Block" identifier is shared with Ice Block simply being "Ice," so to me it looks more like a way to avoid redundancy (since the above header does indeed call them all blocks). Not to mention they are not "bricks" themselves, but merely made from them. With crate again being an outlier, it looks more like "Block ''of'' Brick/Black Brick/Ice" to me. That being said, the fact that ! and ? Blocks are listed separate from them bears consideration (? with the switch and ! in an "other objects"-type section). Regardless, I consider this an alternative role given to Brick Block retroactively, even if it doesn't quite mesh with its typical properties. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:22, May 24, 2020 (EDT)
-Update: it seems you actually ''can'' break these things from the bottom if [https://youtu.be/_DWdkT8nX7I?t=7157 this] and [https://youtu.be/_DWdkT8nX7I?t=7387 this] are anything to go by (while it is a ROMhack, object properties are unchanged, merely their positions). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:49, October 20, 2022 (EDT)
-:You're probably right. I tried looking at the decomp to see what can destroy one of these blocks, and it seems to be: ground pounding, twirling(?), punching, kicking, and hitting from below. I think. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:21, December 2, 2023 (EST)
-::"Twirling" is probably the spin you get after jumping on a Spindrift/Fly Guy or get caught in a tornado. Anyways, I still think it'd make the most sense to move (at the very least) the 64DS info to Brick Block, particularly in light of all this. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:56, December 10, 2023 (EST)