Editing Talk:Black Shy Guy

==Merge?==
Should we merge this with Shy Guy?

[[User:IGGY7735|IGGY7735]]

No. [[User:Mario200|Mario200]] 16:23, 23 February 2011 (EST)

Shouldn't we include MK8 details on them here? The recent DLC with them in it? Problem is I don't know links very well here :( [[User:Pinkolol16|Pinkolol16]] ([[User talk:Pinkolol16|talk]]) 17:42, 2 September 2014 (EDT)

==Thoughts?==
{{talk}}
So, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK2DkArwmd8 it turns out] the Black Shy Guy in Paper Mario: Color Splash shares its Japanese name with [[Anti Guy]]s instead of the name used for Black Shy Guys in Yoshi's Story or Mario Kart 8 (ブラックヘイホー instead of くろヘイホー). Considering that, the fact that this name (to my knowledge) was only used in Paper Mario games, and both enemies similarly being unusually strong black Shy Guys, it seems likely to me that the Black Shy Guy in Color Splash was just a renamed Anti Guy. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 19:31, 18 May 2017 (EDT)
:If we ended up merging the sections, would the article be renamed to {{fake link|Black Shy Guy (Paper Mario series)}} since we [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming an article|use the most recent English name]]? Also, I'm not sure if they should be merged, as they have the same shoe color and mask color as a normal Black Shy Guy (along with the English name). --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 20:15, 19 May 2017 (EDT)
::Following [[Big Boo (Paper Mario series)]], that would be the case if they were merged together. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 21:10, 19 May 2017 (EDT)
::Imo, the shoe/mask color is a minor issue considering the games came out almost 20 years apart. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:36, 19 May 2017 (EDT)
:::Do you know if they have the same name as Anti Guys in any other language? I just don't know if there are enough differences at the moment to merge. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 21:44, 19 May 2017 (EDT)
::::Not sure, actually. I'd guess not, though, because the other foreign names are based on the English localization. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 15:07, 20 May 2017 (EDT)
:::::Bumping this, anyways, [[Klamber|given]] [[Hatopop|certain]] [[Scorchit|examples]] of our naming system being circled, I'd say the best thing here would be to go with most common name, and since more people have played the original ''Paper Mario'' (which is iconic) than ''Color Splash'' (which many are too apprehensive to buy after ''Sticker Star''), I'd say we'd go with Anti Guy. Unless of course you'd prefer to keep it as-is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:38, 25 October 2017 (EDT)

== Merge with Shy Guy, split Shy Guy according to color, or delete this page ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|0-2-0-7|do nothing}}
This might be one of the most ridiculous problems on the wiki. Why do we have this page and [[White Shy Guy]] when other colors like red and green don't have their own articles? Seriously, why? Are black and white Shy Guys any different from other colors? So what if they had special effects in Yoshi's Story? For consistency reasons, we must merge this and the white page with Shy Guy, make more Shy Guy articles, or delete this page and the white page.<br>
'''Proposer:''' {{User|YoshiFlutterJump}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' Monday, November 20, 2017, 11:59:59 PM GMT
===Merge with Shy Guy===
===Make more Shy Guy articles===
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per proposal. Honestly, this is my preferred option. I mean, we did it with the Yoshis.
#{{User|Astro-Lanceur}} this annoys me. per YFJ.
===Delete===
===Do absolutely nothing===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} They're certainly different enough to warrant a different article just as much as [[Stretch (Shy Guy)|Stretch]] is. Note the other Shy Guy colors don't have special behaviors in ''Story'', only the monochrome ones. In fact, the colored ones change colors if ground-pounded near. The only game in which they have strikingly different behavior is ''SMB2'', and even then, the colors are inconsistent between versions.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per Doc.
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} The White Shy Guy in Yoshi's Story is very clearly treated as a unique character and therefore shouldn't be merged.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Black and White Shy Guys feature a few more unique traits to them, Black Shy Guys appearing as [[Anti Guy|a sort of named species]] in ''Paper Mario'' and the White Shy Guy having the revival abilities in ''Yoshi Story''. And as tempting as it is to create articles for other Shy Guy colors, that would end up opening doors for other colored characters, such as Toads, Koopa Troopas or any other colored character in the ''Mario Baseball'' games and I'm not quite sure what the overall opinion is on that. So for now, perhaps the better option is to leave it as it for now.
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all.
#{{User|Lcrossmk8}} Okay, why do you want to merge two articles that deserve to exist for no reason other than that they are simply color swaps? They are different enough to warrant their own article and we do not merge articles with each other for just being color swaps. That's not how the wiki works, and it's against policy. Per all, especially Doc and Tails777.

===Comments===
@Doc von Schmeltwick: The games consider Stretch Guys a variant of Shy Guys, but games like ''Paper Mario: Color Splash'' called each Shy Guy by their color, as if ''each color was a variant''.  If red and green aren't variants, surely black and white aren't either.  Also, just to clarify, when I said "So what if...", I actually meant "What does it matter that...", and "they" referred to black and white Shy Guys, so I was basically asking "Does it really matter that Black and White Shy Guys have a few special abilities?"  And what about the Yoshis?  It's not in every game that they have different abilities.  Since the Yoshis have separate articles, give me one reason why we shouldn't do the same with Shy Guys.  -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}}
:Yes, it does matter, as they're extremely unique. Black Shy Guys act like [[D-Bat]]s and [[Omodonmeka]], which is such a far cry from other Shy Guy behavior that it warrants an article. However, given that the pink shy guys in ''SMB2'' became blue in the remakes, while the red, yellow, green, and pink Shy Guys of ''Yoshi's Island'' were literally interchangeable (and often interchanged), as were the ones in ''Yoshi's Story'' and ''Paper Mario'', I'd say that those don't deserve their own articles. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:04, 6 November 2017 (EST)
::Not to be rude, but you still haven't answered my question about the Yoshis.  The black and white Yoshis were special, but eventually ''each Yoshi had his own article''.  Why do we have articles on each Yoshi color but not Shy Guy colors?  It doesn't make sense. -{{User:YoshiFlutterJump/sig}}
:::Because ''every'' Yoshi is special in many games. ''Super Mario World''? Had their own abilities depending on shells. ''Yoshi's Story''? Had different favorite fruits, and I think jumping distance varied a bit as well? ''Super Mario Sunshine''? Platforms do different things. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:27, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Also, I'd like to point out that [[Lantern Ghost]]s, a type of Shy Guy, also come in color variations. Do you think ''those'' should be split? How about the various palette changes in ''Super Mario Bros.'' caused by the limited palette depending on location (with brown things becoming blue underground, grey and black underwater, and grey in castles, while green things become turquoise and orange underground and in castles and grey underwater)? They do the same things as normal, but they're different colors, and since in all but a very small amount of games differently-colored Shy Guys typically act exactly the same, you're basically saying those should be split as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, 6 November 2017 (EST)
:I recall there being arguments <i>against</i> splitting color variants. Why should various Shy Guy colors be split when something as basic as [[Talk:Koopa_Troopa#Split_Red_Koopa_Troopa_and_Green_Koopa_Troopa|Koopa Troopa]] is a no-go? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:15, 6 November 2017 (EST)

::That is ''exactly'' my point ;) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:32, 6 November 2017 (EST)

By the way, the ''Yoshi's Story'' info wouldn't be merged with [[Shy Guy]], it'd be merged with [[Propeller Shy Guy]], as that's what it's derivative of in that game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:08, 6 November 2017 (EST)
==MK8 Models==
I have a link that could solve the problem of no other Shy Guy models in Mario Kart 8/Kart 8 Deluxe.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=406961489 I know you may have rejected the Wario World Magon, Cracytal, Ankiron, and Clubosaur image before, but if any of you can liberate these Shy Guys, it would be very nice. Just make sure to give them normal standing other than the T pose. --[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 12:09, 22 December 2018 (EST) 

And here is the guy himself who got these models:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaQEP2Se2L0Tx5O0UyZdUg/discussion Be sure to ask him to give all the Shy Guys to this wiki. ;)--[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 10:15, 24 December 2018 (EST) 

Never mind, Models Resource has all the colors. Here's the link needed to obtain them: https://www.models-resource.com/wii_u/mariokart8/model/9295/. Happy Hunting!--[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 13:52, 27 December 2018 (EST)

Since Doc removed the more images template on this page, let's upgrade the quality for this Bowser minion just like the Pink and Cyan Shy Guys. [[File:MK8_Black_Shy_Guy.png]] --[[User:Hamshamcart|Hamshamcart]] ([[User talk:Hamshamcart|talk]]) 16:42, 2 February 2019 (EST)

== Handling this page ==

{{talk}}
I think it's time to start this discussion anew. The Baseball, MKDS, and MK8 info just don't belong on here, as they are treated equally to any other Shy color in those games. Now, the rest. The ''Story'' one is a derivative of the [[Propeller Shy Guy]], while the CS one is the same as [[Anti Guy]]. As such, according to our rules and logic in general, these should be split into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')" and "Black Shy Guy (''Paper Mario'' series)," with the latter being merged with Anti Guy. Thoughts? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
:No objections. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 02:01, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
::Seconding this. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 02:14, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
:::I want to additionally iterate that the only reason the PM stuff wouldn't be merged like the other colors is because it was the only color given any sort of naming or stat differentiation in the original PM, even if it's no longer the case in CS. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:15, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
::::While i agree to merge certain sections with Shy Guys, i'm not too sure about the Paper Mario ones. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:22, June 26, 2019 (EDT)

== Split YS information, merge PMCS info with [[Anti Guy]], and remove the rest ==

{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|no quorum|2-1-0-0-0}}

See above. In ''Yoshi's Story'', Black Shy Guys are a variant of [[Propeller Shy Guy]]. In ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', it's a retranslated Anti Guy. In the rest, it's treated equally to any other color of Shy Guy (or even worse, just be a variant that happens to wear black). How this would go down is that either the PM info would get the main "Black Shy Guy" title as it's an in-game name, the ''Story'' info would be moved to "Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story)," and the rest removed outright, or a diambig page made due to the generic recolors appearing. I suppose we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])<br>
'''Deadline:''' February 26, 2020, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) Per above
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.

===Just split YS info and merge Anti Guy here, still deleting the rest===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It makes more sense wiki-wise to refer to the ''Paper Mario'' series enemy with a recent in-game name from the last console generation instead of a seemingly forgotten localization from the early 2000's, but like the White Shy Guy proposal, I recommend organizing the resulting articles with identifiers.

===Just split YS info and merge Anti Guy here, leaving the rest of this page alone===

===Just split YS info and leave Anti Guy and the rest of this page alone===

===Do nothing===

===Comments===
As an aside, have black Fly Guys made an appearance at any point? I've been thinking that the Propeller Shy Guy situation may not be as clear-cut as once thought given the Japanese names and the fact that the Prima reference for "Flying Shy Guys" doesn't distinguish the two. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:30, February 16, 2020 (EST)
:Small versions of "normal" Fly Guys appear, though given Fly Guys' appearance in PiT and unused appearance in SPM, it wouldn't surprise me...anyways, no, aside from one frame of [[Whirly Fly Guy]], I can't think of a single instance. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:51, February 16, 2020 (EST)
::I see. I'll probably follow-up on that topic sometime afterward. Also, how would you feel about a "merge everything" option (or at least, an option to only keep the ''Yoshi's Story'' variation on the page given that it's the only one that isn't a color variant of regular Shy Guy and is clearly in contrast to the game's White Shy Guy)? Since Black Shy Guy is the latest in-game name in the ''Paper Mario'' series, I think Anti Guy may safely be considered a color variant of regular Shy Guy. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:51, February 18, 2020 (EST)
:::Thing about Anti Guy though is that initially, it was different in a game where there were four colors of "normal" Shy Guy that weren't differentiated at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:19, February 18, 2020 (EST)

== Decide what to do with ''Yoshi's Story'' information ==

{{TPP}}

So my previous proposal on this subject was a bit lacking in attendance of voting, so I've decided to take this one step at a time rather than all at once. First of all, the ''Yoshi's Story'' entity is a type of [[Propeller Shy Guy]] (which itself seems more and more like an alternate design to [[Fly Guy]], but that's another issue for the future), while the other appearances are based on normal Shy Guys.

I see two ways to go about this:<br>
1: Merge ''Yoshi's Story'' info to Propeller Shy Guy outright: the enemy is given its name in a header for [https://youtu.be/XHiuEKWGA-c?t=170 a Hint Block message] ('''''Black Shy Guy?''': This Shy Guy does not look yummy. Eating him might hurt the tummy.'') The specifics for the message and the fact that generic black Shy Guy art exists for the game may indicate other types of Shy Guys were at some point meant to have a "black" coloration and only Propeller Shy Guy's remained in the final, meaning this may have been intended as a general description of something to avoid rather than a specific name for this enemy (thus, "black Shy Guy" and not "Black Shy Guy," which is effectively confirmed by the Japanese version of the block's message being parsed as くろい ヘイホー with a space between ''Kuroi'' and ''Heihō'', making ''Kuroi'' a generic adjective). Either way, it is a color variation, albeit unique compared to how normal ones act (though both the normal type and this type each have multiple behaviors), and the evidence that Fly Guys may be the same thing as Propeller Shy Guys supports the behavioral uniqueness not mattering so much.

2: Split into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')": That being said, the PRIMA games coverage still treats it as a name, and the behavioral differences are rather notable.

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])<br>
'''Deadline:''' May 1, 2020, 23:59 GMT

===Merge ''Yoshi's Story'' info to Propeller Shy Guy===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - First choice after careful consideration.

===Split ''Yoshi's Story'' into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')"===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Second choice.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} - If I understand correctly, the Black Shy Guys in Yoshi’s Story have some gameplay quirks that differentiate them from regular Propeller Shy Guys, making them a notable variant for which a separate page is in order. The developers might have intended Black Shy Guys to be wider spread among other types of Shy Guy, as evidenced by the regular black Shy Guy artwork and the generality of the message block you quoted basically stating that “if it’s black, don’t eat it”, but this situation would pertain to the realm of pre-release and unused content more than anything. Though I support moving the black propeller guy information into its own article, I think this article can keep the Yoshi’s Story section to mention the black Shy Guy artwork and link to the propeller variant via a main-article template.
#{{User|Somethingone}} This seems like the best option
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Not sure if the idea that regular Black Shy Guys might've existed in ''Yoshi's Story'' is too speculative (see comments), but overall, this one is an anomaly with a clearly different parent species (Flying Shy Guy).

===Do nothing===

===Comments===
The [[media:Yoshi Story Shogakukan P13.jpg|Shogakukan guide]] names it 「黒ヘイホー」 (''Kuro Heihō'', Black Shy Guy), and it's consistent about this name throughout the guide instead of referring to it as another flavor of Fly[ing Shy] Guy (プロペラヘイホー). For reference, the Player's Guide refers to it as "black Shy Guy" and Prima guides refer to it as "Black Shy Guy" as well. That places me against the first option, but before I redecide where I fall on this, how will the parent/variant species relationship be organized if the proposal passes? I alluded to it being a potential gripe in the Anti Guy talk page comments. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:14, April 25, 2021 (EDT)
:This would be treated as a relative of the "normal" Black Shy Guy, with a mainarticle section noting the artwork and such. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:29, April 25, 2021 (EDT)