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| ==Thoughts?== | | ==Thoughts?== |
| | {{talk}} |
| So, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK2DkArwmd8 it turns out] the Black Shy Guy in Paper Mario: Color Splash shares its Japanese name with [[Anti Guy]]s instead of the name used for Black Shy Guys in Yoshi's Story or Mario Kart 8 (ブラックヘイホー instead of くろヘイホー). Considering that, the fact that this name (to my knowledge) was only used in Paper Mario games, and both enemies similarly being unusually strong black Shy Guys, it seems likely to me that the Black Shy Guy in Color Splash was just a renamed Anti Guy. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 19:31, 18 May 2017 (EDT) | | So, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK2DkArwmd8 it turns out] the Black Shy Guy in Paper Mario: Color Splash shares its Japanese name with [[Anti Guy]]s instead of the name used for Black Shy Guys in Yoshi's Story or Mario Kart 8 (ブラックヘイホー instead of くろヘイホー). Considering that, the fact that this name (to my knowledge) was only used in Paper Mario games, and both enemies similarly being unusually strong black Shy Guys, it seems likely to me that the Black Shy Guy in Color Splash was just a renamed Anti Guy. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 19:31, 18 May 2017 (EDT) |
| :If we ended up merging the sections, would the article be renamed to {{fake link|Black Shy Guy (Paper Mario series)}} since we [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming an article|use the most recent English name]]? Also, I'm not sure if they should be merged, as they have the same shoe color and mask color as a normal Black Shy Guy (along with the English name). --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 20:15, 19 May 2017 (EDT) | | :If we ended up merging the sections, would the article be renamed to {{fake link|Black Shy Guy (Paper Mario series)}} since we [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming an article|use the most recent English name]]? Also, I'm not sure if they should be merged, as they have the same shoe color and mask color as a normal Black Shy Guy (along with the English name). --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 20:15, 19 May 2017 (EDT) |
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| == Merge with Shy Guy, split Shy Guy according to color, or delete this page == | | == Merge with Shy Guy, split Shy Guy according to color, or delete this page == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|0-2-0-7|do nothing}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|failed|0-2-0-7|do nothing}} |
| This might be one of the most ridiculous problems on the wiki. Why do we have this page and [[White Shy Guy]] when other colors like red and green don't have their own articles? Seriously, why? Are black and white Shy Guys any different from other colors? So what if they had special effects in Yoshi's Story? For consistency reasons, we must merge this and the white page with Shy Guy, make more Shy Guy articles, or delete this page and the white page.<br> | | This might be one of the most ridiculous problems on the wiki. Why do we have this page and [[White Shy Guy]] when other colors like red and green don't have their own articles? Seriously, why? Are black and white Shy Guys any different from other colors? So what if they had special effects in Yoshi's Story? For consistency reasons, we must merge this and the white page with Shy Guy, make more Shy Guy articles, or delete this page and the white page.<br> |
| '''Proposer:''' {{User|YoshiFlutterJump}}<br> | | '''Proposer:''' {{User|YoshiFlutterJump}}<br> |
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| == Handling this page == | | == Handling this page == |
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| I think it's time to start this discussion anew. The Baseball, MKDS, and MK8 info just don't belong on here, as they are treated equally to any other Shy color in those games. Now, the rest. The ''Story'' one is a derivative of the [[Propeller Shy Guy]], while the CS one is the same as [[Anti Guy]]. As such, according to our rules and logic in general, these should be split into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')" and "Black Shy Guy (''Paper Mario'' series)," with the latter being merged with Anti Guy. Thoughts? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, April 22, 2019 (EDT) | | I think it's time to start this discussion anew. The Baseball, MKDS, and MK8 info just don't belong on here, as they are treated equally to any other Shy color in those games. Now, the rest. The ''Story'' one is a derivative of the [[Propeller Shy Guy]], while the CS one is the same as [[Anti Guy]]. As such, according to our rules and logic in general, these should be split into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')" and "Black Shy Guy (''Paper Mario'' series)," with the latter being merged with Anti Guy. Thoughts? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, April 22, 2019 (EDT) |
| :No objections. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 02:01, April 22, 2019 (EDT) | | :No objections. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 02:01, April 22, 2019 (EDT) |
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| == Split YS information, merge PMCS info with [[Anti Guy]], and remove the rest == | | == Split YS information, merge PMCS info with [[Anti Guy]], and remove the rest == |
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| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|no quorum|2-1-0-0-0}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|no quorum|2-1-0-0-0}} |
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| See above. In ''Yoshi's Story'', Black Shy Guys are a variant of [[Propeller Shy Guy]]. In ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', it's a retranslated Anti Guy. In the rest, it's treated equally to any other color of Shy Guy (or even worse, just be a variant that happens to wear black). How this would go down is that either the PM info would get the main "Black Shy Guy" title as it's an in-game name, the ''Story'' info would be moved to "Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story)," and the rest removed outright, or a diambig page made due to the generic recolors appearing. I suppose we can cross that bridge when we come to it. | | See above. In ''Yoshi's Story'', Black Shy Guys are a variant of [[Propeller Shy Guy]]. In ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', it's a retranslated Anti Guy. In the rest, it's treated equally to any other color of Shy Guy (or even worse, just be a variant that happens to wear black). How this would go down is that either the PM info would get the main "Black Shy Guy" title as it's an in-game name, the ''Story'' info would be moved to "Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story)," and the rest removed outright, or a diambig page made due to the generic recolors appearing. I suppose we can cross that bridge when we come to it. |
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| ::I see. I'll probably follow-up on that topic sometime afterward. Also, how would you feel about a "merge everything" option (or at least, an option to only keep the ''Yoshi's Story'' variation on the page given that it's the only one that isn't a color variant of regular Shy Guy and is clearly in contrast to the game's White Shy Guy)? Since Black Shy Guy is the latest in-game name in the ''Paper Mario'' series, I think Anti Guy may safely be considered a color variant of regular Shy Guy. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:51, February 18, 2020 (EST) | | ::I see. I'll probably follow-up on that topic sometime afterward. Also, how would you feel about a "merge everything" option (or at least, an option to only keep the ''Yoshi's Story'' variation on the page given that it's the only one that isn't a color variant of regular Shy Guy and is clearly in contrast to the game's White Shy Guy)? Since Black Shy Guy is the latest in-game name in the ''Paper Mario'' series, I think Anti Guy may safely be considered a color variant of regular Shy Guy. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:51, February 18, 2020 (EST) |
| :::Thing about Anti Guy though is that initially, it was different in a game where there were four colors of "normal" Shy Guy that weren't differentiated at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:19, February 18, 2020 (EST) | | :::Thing about Anti Guy though is that initially, it was different in a game where there were four colors of "normal" Shy Guy that weren't differentiated at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:19, February 18, 2020 (EST) |
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| == Decide what to do with ''Yoshi's Story'' information ==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|1-4-0|split}}
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| So my previous proposal on this subject was a bit lacking in attendance of voting, so I've decided to take this one step at a time rather than all at once. First of all, the ''Yoshi's Story'' entity is a type of [[Propeller Shy Guy]] (which itself seems more and more like an alternate design to [[Fly Guy]], but that's another issue for the future), while the other appearances are based on normal Shy Guys.
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| I see two ways to go about this:<br>
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| 1: Merge ''Yoshi's Story'' info to Propeller Shy Guy outright: the enemy is given its name in a header for [https://youtu.be/XHiuEKWGA-c?t=170 a Hint Block message] ('''''Black Shy Guy?''': This Shy Guy does not look yummy. Eating him might hurt the tummy.'') The specifics for the message and the fact that generic black Shy Guy art exists for the game may indicate other types of Shy Guys were at some point meant to have a "black" coloration and only Propeller Shy Guy's remained in the final, meaning this may have been intended as a general description of something to avoid rather than a specific name for this enemy (thus, "black Shy Guy" and not "Black Shy Guy," which is effectively confirmed by the Japanese version of the block's message being parsed as くろい ヘイホー with a space between ''Kuroi'' and ''Heihō'', making ''Kuroi'' a generic adjective). Either way, it is a color variation, albeit unique compared to how normal ones act (though both the normal type and this type each have multiple behaviors), and the evidence that Fly Guys may be the same thing as Propeller Shy Guys supports the behavioral uniqueness not mattering so much.
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| 2: Split into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')": That being said, the PRIMA games coverage still treats it as a name, and the behavioral differences are rather notable.
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| '''Proposer:''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])<br>
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| '''Deadline:''' May 1, 2020, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Merge ''Yoshi's Story'' info to Propeller Shy Guy===
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - First choice after careful consideration.
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| ===Split ''Yoshi's Story'' into "Black Shy Guy (''Yoshi's Story'')"===
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Second choice.
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| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} - If I understand correctly, the Black Shy Guys in Yoshi’s Story have some gameplay quirks that differentiate them from regular Propeller Shy Guys, making them a notable variant for which a separate page is in order. The developers might have intended Black Shy Guys to be wider spread among other types of Shy Guy, as evidenced by the regular black Shy Guy artwork and the generality of the message block you quoted basically stating that “if it’s black, don’t eat it”, but this situation would pertain to the realm of pre-release and unused content more than anything. Though I support moving the black propeller guy information into its own article, I think this article can keep the Yoshi’s Story section to mention the black Shy Guy artwork and link to the propeller variant via a main-article template.
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| #{{User|Somethingone}} This seems like the best option
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Not sure if the idea that regular Black Shy Guys might've existed in ''Yoshi's Story'' is too speculative (see comments), but overall, this one is an anomaly with a clearly different parent species (Flying Shy Guy).
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| ===Do nothing===
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| ===Comments===
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| The [[media:Yoshi Story Shogakukan P13.jpg|Shogakukan guide]] names it 「黒ヘイホー」 (''Kuro Heihō'', Black Shy Guy), and it's consistent about this name throughout the guide instead of referring to it as another flavor of Fly[ing Shy] Guy (プロペラヘイホー). For reference, the Player's Guide refers to it as "black Shy Guy" and Prima guides refer to it as "Black Shy Guy" as well. That places me against the first option, but before I redecide where I fall on this, how will the parent/variant species relationship be organized if the proposal passes? I alluded to it being a potential gripe in the Anti Guy talk page comments. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:14, April 25, 2021 (EDT)
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| :This would be treated as a relative of the "normal" Black Shy Guy, with a mainarticle section noting the artwork and such. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:29, April 25, 2021 (EDT)
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| == Prune "sports" information ==
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| {{settled TPP}}
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| {{proposal outcome|failed|3-0-5|Do not prune "sports" information}}
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| In the "sports" games (''Kart'', ''Baseball'', etc), these are treated as interchangeable with any other colored Shy Guy they share the game with. Different stats in baseball? Every other Shy Guy color has different stats as well. Different item in ''Tour''? Same goes for all the others. We already removed "miscellaneous" information from [[White Shy Guy]] and [[Red Boo]], so it makes sense to do the same here. The subjects here might be "black Shy Guys," but they aren't the elite-coded "Black Shy Guys," so to speak, and we don't split every other color that acts the same (Blue, Pink, etc; these are just as non-notable in those shared-role appearances).
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| The only real exception here is ''Tennis Aces'', but since it's giant I think it would do better on the [[Mega Guy]] page (where it already is).
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': <s>September 21, 2024, 23:59 (GMT)</s> Extended to September 28, 2024, 23:59 (GMT)
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| ===Support - and remove ''Tennis Aces''===
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| #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
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| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
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| <s>{{User|Tails777}} I will continue to stand by my preferred stance of splitting colored variants. But where the wiki currently stands on that matter, I'd rather remain consistent with the current method at least.</s>
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| ===Support - but keep ''Tennis Aces''===
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} If we have a page for something we might as well cover all of the relevant information. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and all that.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Waluigi Time, especially in the comments.
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| #{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per WT.
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| #{{User|Pseudo}} Per Waluigi Time.
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| #{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per Waluigi Time.
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| ===Comments===
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| Would it be possible to move this page to "Black Shy Guy (''Paper Mario'' series)" after the proposal? Besides the seemingly scrapped, flightless Black Shy Guys in ''Yoshi's Story'' (which are already mentioned on the page for [[Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story)|that game's Black Shy Guys]]) and the [[Wrench Shy Guy]] and [[Spyguy]] being listed as variants in the infobox (which could be listed as variants of the regular Shy Guy instead), all that will be left after removing the sports game information is ''Paper Mario'' series information. I wouldn't want this to take priority over ''Yoshi's Story''{{'}}s Black Shy Guys despite having more appearances, nor be a general page for black-colored Shy Guys. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 20:22, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Thing is, I don't want it to be required to stay ''Paper Mario''-only in case they appear elsewhere later. And we may want to re-merge the ''Yoshi's Story'' info at some point down the line. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:00, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Hmph, I see. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 21:03, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::All that said, though, I suppose it makes sense to in the meantime. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, September 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| {{@|Waluigi Time}} - Thoughts on [[White Shy Guy]] and [[Red Boo]], then? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:17, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I would support overturning those proposals. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 21:53, September 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Well, while I disagree on that being the proper path forward, I'm happy to see that you are consistent with your beliefs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:00, September 8, 2024 (EDT)
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| I disagree that any random Shy Guy that is black should be considered the same as the elite-coded (or at least specialized) "Black Shy Guys" codified in ''Yoshi's Story'' and ''Paper Mario''. Otherwise, for consistency, we'd need articles for every random red, blue, pink, yellow, green, orange, ''et cetera'' Shy Guys, and that's far too much, especially since they're usually interchangeable and have differed between SMB2 and its enhanced reissues anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:05, September 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Couldn't it be compared to our coverage of winged and big enemies in Mario Maker, where they only get articles if they were also in other games? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:35, September 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I suppose, and how generic creatures only get sections in prose on their articles (if they get articles at all) if they affect gameplay in some notable capacity. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:46, September 23, 2024 (EDT)
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