Editing Talk:Biting Bullet Bill

==Name==
Is this an official name? These could just be [[Missile Bill]]s. -- [[User: Son of Suns|Son of Suns]]

There not Missile Bills because Missile Bills don't try and eat Mario.{{User:Luigibros2/sig}}

== YI 1 ==
Are these also in the original [[Yoshi's Island]]? What level are they in? {{User:Fawfulfury65/sig}}
:They aren't in the original Yoshi's Island. I don't believe any form of Bullet Bill is, actually. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 17:32, 9 December 2009 (EST)

== Official Name? ==
This could just be [[Missile Bill]]s. They act exactly the same... --[[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 02:33, 13 February 2015 (EST)
:According to a comment above, they're different because "Missile Bills don't try and eat Mario". I'm not entirely sure how true that statement is ([https://youtu.be/FrhpDpF1gEM?t=498 this is the best video] that shows off the Bills, but they don't really get a chance to "bite"), but the distinction seems superficial. ~~
::From my experience, they're exactly the same. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 21:33, 4 April 2015 (EDT)
:::Is there even a ''Super Mario Advance 3'' player's guide, Nintendo Power or Prima? It looks like there isn't which, if we're not considering these Missile Bills, should at the very least swap out that <nowiki>{{refneeded}}</nowiki> for a conjecture tag. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:29, 6 May 2015 (EDT)

==Merge Biting Bullet Bill with Bull's-Eye Bill==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|red|don't merge 4-5}}

This enemy almost acts exactly as a Bull's-Eye Bill does in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' (and evidently ''Super Mario Maker''), being a slower version of a Bullet Bill that curves dynamically to home in on the player. The chomping "wakawaka" motion is an aesthetic (not an attack), and it has a similar red tinge; the only real difference is that when this version fatigues, it pops.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' July 31, 2015, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per.
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per LTL.
#{{User|Pyro Guy}} Seeing as the name ''Biting Bullet Bill'' was created by the wiki, and that they are unused, there isn't really any evidence suggesting that they are different apart from the biting. Merging would get rid of the conjectural tag, and would make a lot more sense.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Just on behavior and looks alone, you'd split a lot of Bullet Bills from each other since they differ so much from game to game. I think this removes conjecture and acknowledges the variations among games. The popping thing isn't anything special, since it's just a generic effect.

===Oppose===
#{{User|TheHelper1000}} Just because they act in a similar way doesn't mean that they're the same.
#{{user|Walkazo}} - A big, bitey mouth is pretty unique as far as Bullet Bills go ([[Bouncing Bullet Bill]]s only open their mouth in defeat, while Bullet Bills in the same game do neither, from what I've seen), and popping like a bubble isn't the same thing as exploding at all. There's no reason to go out of our way to merge this perfectly serviceable article.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Two enemies having the same behavior doesn't make them the same enemy. If there isn't any solid proof that the Biting Bullet Bill is an iteration of the Bull's-Eye Bill, I'm not comfortable with this merge.
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per all.
#{{User|Lumastar}} Per all. I don't see the two as being the same for reasons stated above.

===Comments===
My two cents: I've recently bought the guide to SMA3, specifically to clear this up, and the guide barely even covers the last level. All it has is a full map and two paragraphs for the intro. Either that, or a page is missing (though there really doesn't seem to be any tears), and I'll have to contact the seller about that... In any case, the official guide doesn't seem to be much help. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}

@Time Tuner: I didn't even realize there was a guide (I would've left it as <nowiki>{{refneeded}}</nowiki> over the conjecture tag earlier if I knew)! It's too bad it doesn't have this enemy from what you can tell, but it'd still be useful here if there are any other spelling differences or naming updates (or [[Talk:Nep-Enut#No it shouldn't be moved to Giant Nep-Enut|potential]] [[Talk:Slime|clarifications]]) if it's from Nintendo Power, since the newer guide would supersede the names that are from the older SNES guide.

@TheHelper1000: You have to include a reason with your vote. I'll say this, though: it has more in common with the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Bull's-Eye Bills than the original Missile Bill from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (which only about-faced once if they missed Mario), but otherwise the behavior is spot-on. In ''New Super Mario Bros. U'', the Bull's-Eye Bill also self-destructs, and like this enemy the blast radius isn't sufficient to take its target with it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:16, 17 July 2015 (EDT)

I'm iffy about this move because these appear to be mini Banzai Bills that home on you and are on a set timer rather than Bulls-Eye Bills. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:24, 17 July 2015 (EDT)
:Banzai Bills aren't in the game, so these are Bullet Bills in their limbless design. ''Apparently'', some artists thought the arms looked like teeth in their original sprite, so that's why it varied earlier before settling on arms for Bullet Bill and teeth for Banzai Bill. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:22, 17 July 2015 (EDT)

Don't normal bullet bills "chomp" and pop after a while - in this game? --[[User:Hiccup|Hiccup]] ([[User talk:Hiccup|talk]]) 05:19, 18 July 2015 (EDT)

@Hiccup: I believe Bouncing Bullet Bills do, but my cartridge battery no longer functions, so it's unfortunately inconvenient for me to double-check.

@Walkazo: The discussion above actually tried to figure out if Biting Bullet Bills try to "eat Mario", which is the ''precise'' reason this article was named separately from Missile Bill in the first place. "Biting Bullet Bill" suggests that is the enemy's key difference, but outside of the sprite rotation, it seems to just have Bullet Bill's usual hitbox. In all likelihood, the reason they awkwardly cycle between two frames of animation to give the illusion of biting is because the programming was slightly incomplete and didn't need to be finished when it was initially scrapped, but the porting team didn't bother tampering with it in the GBA version. The difference from the popping bubble/item animation (again, probably hinging on a lazy leftover, considering most players aren't going to see the Extra levels) and the exploding one in ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' seems to be aesthetic, since the latter cannot cause damage either from what I've tested out. Lastly, the design difference isn't "tenuous" - after ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', Bull's-Eye Bill has since just been a reddish palette swap of the game's Bullet Bill, [[:File:Bull's-Eye_Bill_CTTT.png|toothless]] or [[:File:MissileBill_SMS.png|armless]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:32, 18 July 2015 (EDT)
:Good point, especially about that appearance in ''Super Mario Sunshine''. If you look at [[Gallery:Bullet Bill]], you can see a lot of drastic design differences across games. Even in ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'', the Bullet Bill has a no arms and a huge grin. By using the opposers' logic, you'd have to split all those Bullet Bills alone... As for that popping thing, don't all enemies making a popping noise when they're defeated? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:20, 20 July 2015 (EDT)
::In the SNES game at least, they don't make a noise when they [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1smj0YNZvsU&t=07m45s pop] - but outside of the split-second shrinking, the effect is really generic and is also used other times such as collecting a flower or using a key to open a locked door. Even if they were intended to detonate properly, the explosive properties of Bullet Bills in general regularly change outside of traditional 2D platformers. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:20, 21 July 2015 (EDT)

==Merge With Bullseye Bill==
There is honestly no reason for these to be separate, they are red versions of the respective games' Bullet Bills that chase. The reason they bite is not so they can "eat" Yoshi, it's just a way to make them ''look'' more predatory. And they couldn't follow in the same manner in SMB3 because the NES didn't have sprite rotation. This needs reexamined something terrible. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:13, 20 July 2017 (CT)
:That's speculation on your part, unless you have an official source. Considering the differences that are already apparent, I don't see the harm in leaving them separated. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 17:16, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
::Is there any official source that lists the purple blinky-nosed Bullets of Super Mario Sunshine as Bullseye/Missile Bills? Because they have roughly the same amount of differences, yet are classified as such. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:52, 20 July 2017 (CT)
:::There are at least a couple of Sunshine enemies that are notably different but were lumped into other articles, such as [[Bob-omb#Super_Mario_Sunshine|Bob-omb]]. I'd be in support of giving them separate articles. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 18:00, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
::::The arguments for and against have all been laid out above for anyone to read if they so choose and decide for themselves. To add, "Biting" is a conjectural misnomer because there are plenty of other enemies in this game that can have Yoshi in its mouth, but this Bullet Bill is not one of them like the name would imply. If nothing else, it should at least be changed to something more descriptive. Also, if we're bringing Bob-ombs into this, might as well throw in the ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' Bob-ombs – they have different appearances and Japanese names, but officially, Bob-ombs are considered by Nintendo to have debuted in that game proper. That would be a total dud, as would adding "(Super Mario Sunshine)" identifiers to various articles like Blooper, Boo, Bullet Bill, Cheep Cheep, Monty Mole, etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:05, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
:::::I'm gonna go with Link on this one, especially since FLUDD outright calls the regular Bullet Bills of this game "Bullet Bills" during the Mecha Bowser fight. The purple ones can be assumed to be Bullseye Bills because they're targeting versions of that game's regular Bullet Bills. But the same thing can be said about the "Biting" Bullet Bills, especially since the regular Bullet Bills of Yoshi's Island looked like [[File:BulletBill-SMW2.png]] this. Now as for why SMS enemies looked so weird, that can be chalked up to it being the Gamecube/Gameboy Advanced era, where lots of [[Super Mario Sunshine|odd]] [[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|enemy]] [[Zeldawiki:The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords|design]] [[Zeldawiki:The Legend of Zelda:The Wind Waker|choices]] were made. This was partially due to the fact that in the N64 era, they had to redesign a few things based off of the limitations of the machine, and a few things stuck around, but other things were just changed to be creative. The Yoshi franchise is no stranger to this either; after all, [[File:SpikedFunGuyYoshi'sStoryArt.png|x50px]] this is apparently a breed of Pokey, with the exact same Japanese name, while [[File:YS Blurp.jpg|x50px]] this has the same Japanese name as Cheep-Cheep, which was also in that game, but acts like a Boss Bass. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 20:18, 20 July 2017 (CT)
::::::Oh. I see now they aren't, since new info was found after I posted that (I think I spurred that investigation ''finally''). Well the latter one is still half the same anyways. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 20:23, 20 July 2017 (CT)
:::::::Be that as it may, the analogy is still Bullet Bill (most games):Bullseye Bill (most games)::Bullet Bill (SMS):Bullseye Bill (SMS)::Bullet Bill (Yoshi's Island):Biting Bullet Bill. I think it's a pretty safe bet they're the same, since they look about the same and act the same. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 20:25, 20 July 2017 (CT)

For the record, here's how they're treated by the [[Media:Advance 3 Shogakukan P15.png|Shogakukan guide]], starting with the Bullet Bill description on page 15:

キ ラー

<span class="explain" title="みどり">緑</span>と<span class="explain" title="あか">赤</span>の<span class="explain" title="ほうだい">砲台</span>は<span class="explain" title="こていしき">固定式</span>で、<span class="explain" title="きいろ">黄色</span>の<span class="explain" title="ほうだい">砲台</span>は<span class="explain" title="かいてんしき">回転式</span>。<span class="explain" title="あか">赤</span>いキラーは ヨッシーを<span class="explain" title="お">追</span>いかけ、<span class="explain" title="きいろ">黄色</span>いキ ラーはかべに<span class="explain" title="あ">当</span>たるとはね<span class="explain" title="かえ">返</span>る。<span class="explain" title="ほうだい">砲台</span>を<span class="explain" title="たお">倒</span>すならアイス<span class="explain" title="こうげき">攻撃</span>で。 

My translation:

''Killer''

''Green and red cannons are a fixed type, while yellow cannons are a rotatable type. Red Killers pursue Yoshi, and yellow Killers bounce off walls. The cannons can be defeated by an ice attack.''

Later in the guide, on page 203, the overview of Endless World of Yoshis lists the enemies at the bottom. The enemy is just listed as "Killer" with the sprite of an ordinary green one (which doesn't show up in the level), and the information on the section where it appears again generically calls it a red one. This is similarly done to Bouncing Bullet Bill labeled with a green one for Raphael The Raven's Castle on page 156. Essentially, both Bouncing Bullet Bills and Biting Bullet Bills are classified under Bullet Bills, and the game's three behavior types are only described by color differentiation.

Incidentally, this wouldn't appear to be the only time different Bullet Bills were grouped together; ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' classifies the Missile Bill from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' under Killer on page 36, just like the Bullet Bills from ''Yoshi's Island'' or, as another example, Boss Bass and Big Bertha listed under one Japanese name even noted by differing behaviors. This lack of distinguishment gives us a reasonable precedent to merge with Bull's-Eye Bill.

The quote:

キラー

キラー砲台から発射され、まっすぐに飛んでくる。Uターンするタイプもいる。 

Or:

''Killer''

''Fired from Killer Cannons, they fly straight ahead. There is also a U-turning type.''

I can see this going one of three ways:

Rename to '''Killer''' (''Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3''). This looks needlessly clunky, though, as the title isn't informative enough.

Merge to '''Bullet Bill'''. Not a great idea, either, because then there would be no reason not to include Bouncing Bullet Bill with the merge as well.

Merge to '''Bull's-Eye Bill'''. This is the closest equivalent and is more distinct than the above options, and matches how Missile Bill was apparently categorized in ''Super Mario Bros. 3''.

At any rate, there's no reason to keep the conjectural name anymore. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:34, 14 August 2017 (EDT)

==Merge Biting Bullet Bill with Bull's-Eye Bill==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|7-2|merge}}
There was another proposal that failed by a hair two years ago, but it is proposed again in light of new information. As was stated, Biting Bullet Bills are functionally closer to modern Bull's-Eye Bills than the original incarnation from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', homing on its target more directly rather than simply turning around after missing - the main difference is that this enemy pops when it fatigues (the "biting" motion is actually a mere aesthetic with the same hitbox and a misnomer since it has no real bite attack). The Nintendo Power guide for ''Super Mario Advance 3'' ultimately proved fruitless since it doesn't reference them.

That would've been the end of it, until now: it turns out that the Shogakukan guide for ''Super Mario Advance 3'' '''does''' reference these enemies, which was recently cited in the article with quote translation and accompanying scan. However, it doesn't have a unique name, but rather is generically called a color and behavioral variant of Bullet Bill. This is significant because, according to ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', this matches how Missile Bill was categorized back in Japanese sources of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (as in, it was only described under "Killer" and apparently wasn't yet considered its own enemy, later listed separately by ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''). I don't think it's a good idea to strictly merge Missile Bill and Biting Bullet Bill (and Bouncing Bullet Bill) with the Bullet Bill article based on old Japanese information that contradicts how it was/is organized in English sources; rather, a merge with Bull's-Eye Bill would be more simple and logical, taking into account how Missile Bill was similarly described in Japanese and English sources, and the unmistakeable similarities to modern Bull's-Eye Bills.

If this proposal doesn't pass, the article will be renamed '''Killer''' (''Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3'') in according with [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable_sources_for_naming|naming policy]], with an another language tag instead of a conjectural tag.

'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 31, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} If the decidedly differently-named-in-all-languages "Purple Bullet Bill" can be on there, I think this should be too. Particularly as this one looks even more similar.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
#{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Skuchi037}} Per the affirmation from the previous proposal and per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Time Turner}} This is too speculative and stretchy for my liking. Per the opposition from the previous proposal.
#{{User|TheHelper1000}} Per all, way too much speculation.

===Comments===
Opposers - if you don't think "Biting Bullet Bill" is worthy of inclusion in the Bull's-Eye Bill article, what makes Missile Bill from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' any different, considering the homing mechanic is far less alike? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:21, 21 August 2017 (EDT)