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| == Resplit Birdo (species) == | | == Resplit Birdo (species) == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|13-6-16|do not split}}
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| I have 15 rebuttals to arguments I've seen from other users against splitting [[Birdo]] and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}. | | I have 15 rebuttals to arguments I've seen from other users against splitting [[Birdo]] and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}. |
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| #{{User|GeneralDonitsky}} Per all. | | #{{User|GeneralDonitsky}} Per all. |
| #{{User|DesaMatt}} Per proposal. Let's see how this works out. | | #{{User|DesaMatt}} Per proposal. Let's see how this works out. |
| #{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. Even if there might be more edge cases than others, this is consistent with Toad, Yoshi, etc
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| #{{User|Nelsonic}} Secondary opinion. Per all.
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| ===Split [[Birdo]], {{fake link|Red Birdo}}, {{fake link|Green Birdo}}, and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}=== | | ===Split [[Birdo]], {{fake link|Red Birdo}}, {{fake link|Green Birdo}}, and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}=== |
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Preferred option, tbh. | | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Preferred option, tbh. |
| #{{User|Rykitu}} I agree with FanOfYoshi | | #{{User|Rykitu}} I agree with FanOfYoshi |
| #{{User|Nelsonic}} Primary opinion. Per all.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} this seems like a good idea too
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| #{{User|WingedBoomBoom}} I think this makes sense.
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| ===Oppose=== | | ===Oppose=== |
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| #{{User|Nintendo101}} I do not think I would be opposed to individual bosses receiving their own articles, but the people who make ''Super Mario'' games have never had unique reverence for [[:File:Top100DefuseorLose.png|the concept of an "individual."]] Yoshis are not quite in the same situation. | | #{{User|Nintendo101}} I do not think I would be opposed to individual bosses receiving their own articles, but the people who make ''Super Mario'' games have never had unique reverence for [[:File:Top100DefuseorLose.png|the concept of an "individual."]] Yoshis are not quite in the same situation. |
| #{{User|MarioComix}} Firstly, I believe there has been enough distinction between Birdo as a character and as a species, at least in their species debut in ''Mario Power Tennis'' (where Bowser almost gets kissed by a generic red Birdo as opposed to the obligatory pink Birdo, which serves no purpose other than to say "this is not the usual Birdo"), and this persisting across games shows a clear continuation of "Birdo as a species" compared to one-off instances of multiples of [[Donkey Kong Jr.]], [[Toadsworth]], [[Petey Piranha]], or [[King Bob-omb]], wherein they serve specific gameplay or minor cameo roles. But the main reason I support keeping it merged as one page for Birdo and her species as a whole is due to the same old pitfall [[#This_Birdo.27s_page_miss_all_informations_about_her_playable_appearance_in_Super_Mario_Strikers_and_Mario_Strikers_Charged.|as above]], where people looking for "Birdo in Mario Strikers" will come to character Birdo's page and be confused about the lack of information from the first two ''Strikers'' games. So for '''ease of use''', it's better to keep all of Birdo and Birdos' appearances on one page. | | #{{User|MarioComix}} Firstly, I believe there has been enough distinction between Birdo as a character and as a species, at least in their species debut in ''Mario Power Tennis'' (where Bowser almost gets kissed by a generic red Birdo as opposed to the obligatory pink Birdo, which serves no purpose other than to say "this is not the usual Birdo"), and this persisting across games shows a clear continuation of "Birdo as a species" compared to one-off instances of multiples of [[Donkey Kong Jr.]], [[Toadsworth]], [[Petey Piranha]], or [[King Bob-omb]], wherein they serve specific gameplay or minor cameo roles. But the main reason I support keeping it merged as one page for Birdo and her species as a whole is due to the same old pitfall [[#This_Birdo.27s_page_miss_all_informations_about_her_playable_appearance_in_Super_Mario_Strikers_and_Mario_Strikers_Charged.|as above]], where people looking for "Birdo in Mario Strikers" will come to character Birdo's page and be confused about the lack of information from the first two ''Strikers'' games. So for '''ease of use''', it's better to keep all of Birdo and Birdos' appearances on one page. |
| #{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per MarioComix. two subjects can be separate and still share an article, if it results in a clearer reading experience. if you really really care about differentiating between Birdo the idea vs. Birdo the woman, you can do that in the article's body without splitting it.
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| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I'd support splitting the SMB2 Birdo bosses individually, and I'd support covering other appearances of these color variants on the resultant pages [[Talk:White Shy Guy#Reverse the above proposal|in whatever manner the community decides it is done for the white and black Shy Guys]]. Outside of SMB2, non-pink Birdos barely have anything going for them collectively that warrant a separate page from Birdo. Yoshis may fulfill various [[Yoshi (species)#Super Mario World|gameplay]], [[Yoshi (species)#Club Nintendo|narrative]], and [[Yoshi (species)#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|speaking roles]] that set them apart from the green Yoshi. Birdos (plural) most often appear as mere duplicates of *the* pink Birdo, either acting exactly the same as her or being there just to fill in a non-speaking NPC role, and it really doesn't help how recent games follow a trend of referring to them using bracket identifiers like "Birdo (Red)". The only game I can think of that confers Birdo colors some crucial distinctions, gameplay-adjacent or not, is Mario Kart Tour, where each color Birdo is given a set of favored courses and (maybe) a special item--but that's a moot basis for a split, because that game effectively relies on giving each individual playable skin its own set of attributes distinct from the base character. To me, separating Birdo the character and Birdo the species would feel like singling out the Dry Bones character you play as in spin-offs, or [[Talk:Boom Boom (species)#Merge this with Boom Boom|extrapolating that Boom Boom is a species of its own]].
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| #{{User|Mario}} Probably worthwhile to check how [[Metal Mario]] is organized, which used to also try to split between character and powerup to rather confusing results, see [[Talk:Metal Mario]]. Currently, it's a much more straightforward page that focuses on Metal Mario as a more abstract concept without needing to try to distinguish between the ambiguous identities of powerup vs. character while leaving interpretation of what Metal Mario actually is up to the reader, not taking a stance, which is more in-spirit to how the developers use these character. I think that page is better for this. There was a similar case for Boom Boom as well. I wouldn't be opposed to a similar idea of Yoshi, Yoshis; Toad, Toads though the resulting pages are probably going to be huge. At least when a red-spotted Toad is there, there'll be less issue trying to sort it into a Toad species article or The Toad article or just both.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} There just isn't much going on here compared to Toad and Yoshi. Per oppo.
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| #{{User|SComic}} Per Doc Von Schmeltwick
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| ===Comments=== | | ===Comments=== |
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| The difference between THE Birdo and THE Yoshi and THE Toad is that there's never a differentiator between her and others of her kind, something similar to Yoshi being the only green one among multiples of different colors or Toad being the only red Toad with a blue vest in among monochromatic Toads. Either Birdo is the only Birdo in the game or or she's with other pink Birdos. She doesn't have a unique west-exclusive name that helps set her apart from other Birdos like Kamek, either. [[User:DesaMatt|DesaMatt]] ([[User talk:DesaMatt|talk]]) 21:10, February 5, 2025 | | The difference between THE Birdo and THE Yoshi and THE Toad is that there's never a differentiator between her and others of her kind, something similar to Yoshi being the only green one among multiples of different colors or Toad being the only red Toad with a blue vest in among monochromatic Toads. Either Birdo is the only Birdo in the game or or she's with other pink Birdos. She doesn't have a unique west-exclusive name that helps set her apart from other Birdos like Kamek, either. [[User:DesaMatt|DesaMatt]] ([[User talk:DesaMatt|talk]]) 21:10, February 5, 2025 |
| :Your vote and this comment indicate opposite viewpoints. Your comment here says "there's no way to tell them apart," your vote says "let's split them," together basically saying "there's no way to tell them apart, but let's split them anyway despite the fact that, as previously stated, we literally cannot tell." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:16, February 5, 2025 (EST) | | :Your vote and this comment indicate opposite viewpoints. Your comment here says "there's no way to tell them apart," your vote says "let's split them," together basically saying "there's no way to tell them apart, but let's split them anyway despite the fact that, as previously stated, we literally cannot tell." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:16, February 5, 2025 (EST) |
| :Actually, there is at least one game where there are multicolor Birdos and Birdo the character in the same scene, [[Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games]]. [[User:Kirby the Formling|Kirby the Formling]] ([[User talk:Kirby the Formling|talk]]) 04:49, February 6, 2025 (EST). https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QrVanmtOLVs/maxresdefault.jpg
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| ::"Team Birdo" there is just made of four multicolored versions of Birdo with the same non-playable role. It's not like the pink Birdo is a playable character or anything. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:25, February 6, 2025 (EST)
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| If Nintendo doesn't make a distinction between Birdo the character and Birdo the species, then neither should we. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:14, February 6, 2025 (EST)
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| Since the primary argument by the supporters seems to be "consistency with Yoshi and Toad", I'd like to again point out that there are far more cases of these character/species things not being split, such as [[Wiggler]], [[Boom Boom]], [[Draggadon]], [[Talk:Koopa (Mario Party DS)#Merge to Koopa Troopa|this Koopa]], [[Talk:Hammer Bro (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)#Merge to Hammer Bros. (mach deux)|that Hammer Bro]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|the Mario Party Advance characters]], and [[Dorrie]] and [[Koopa Kid]] (those two even have unique colours like Birdo), as well as pretty much every time a generic representative of a species appears as a singular playable character or boss in a spin-off. How is Birdo different from all of those? Also, while not super common, Yoshi and Toad have had a few official mentions of the character/species distinction, such as "[[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Yoshi's Crafted World|There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis]]" and "[[List of Toad profiles and statistics#Play Nintendo|In a kingdom full of Toads, there is only one “Toad”]]", while Birdo has never had something like that to my knowledge. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:38, February 7, 2025 (EST)
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| :The key difference is that Birdo was established as a singular character first and as a species later. I know, I know, doesn't seem big, but take it from the perspective that on first introduction, those characters listed are clearly enemies and we can see multiples of them at a time, or they're the odd case of Dorrie where there was only one originally, but there were clearly multiples and they were referred to in the plural form in ''Odyssey'' (or Draggadon too). Funnily enough, I saw a jokingly-toned video recently about our [[MIPS]] page and they were complaining that we mention "multiple MIPS can be seen on [[Woody Woods]]" even though MIPS is meant to be a singular character and not a species, while we mention "multiple owls resembling [[Hoot]]" for a similar background asset. These just go to show that the order of introduction does matter to a degree, at least until it's very conflictingly shown. For example, I also mentioned the examples of multiples of [[Donkey Kong Jr.]], [[Toadsworth]], [[Petey Piranha]], and [[Toadette]], but these were almost all one-off incidents. But if these had continued to recur and conflict with what we know, then it would be appropriate to rebrand them to species or something along those lines. The point is, I think it's fair to make the distinction that there is a Birdo and many Birdos, but it's still better to keep them on the same page. (Also as a minor note, all the ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' character bios, from wherever they were pulled, very clearly refer to the enemy characters using plurals, but Yoshi, Toad, and Birdo in the singular. Just a little something that shows the official bio collators are at least considering Birdo as the individual.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 01:17, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::''Was'' Birdo "established as a singular character first", though? The first appearance already had Birdos of multiple colours that may or may not have been the same individual. It seems the interpretation of them as a singular character just happened to be the one the wiki went with, so when later games unambiguously featured multiple, we decided that had to be a species and get split. You're right that the order of introduction seems to matter to us fans, but I highly doubt it matters to the developers. As I've been arguing, I think this whole idea of "if there's one it's an individual character but if there's multiple it's a species and if something is shown to be one then it can't be the other" is a bit silly and trying to make up narrative explanations for things that don't have any, in games that care little about narrative. Same goes for the idea that a species becoming a character is in some way a different situation from a character becoming a species. I feel pretty confident that this split would never have happened if SMB2 depicted Birdo as more unambiguously a "species" (like if it had two on-screen at once or something) even if the entire rest of the character's history was identical, which suggests to me that "Birdo when there's only one" and "Birdo when there's more than one" really aren't distinct subjects. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:29, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::: And besides, the Red and Green Birdo's quotes in SMA ("I'm gonna finish you off!" and "I'm ready for you ''this'' time!") indicate it's just the regular Birdo in new color schemes and as such, the same character. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:19, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Super Mario Advance wasn't the first appearance. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:35, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::It's a remake of it, though, not a separate instance. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:07, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::Except that in ''[[BS Super Mario USA]]'', Pink Birdo, Red Birdo, and Green Birdo are all indicated as separate characters ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw0-ous94Xs As seen here], and some [[:File:Subcon desert.png|episode]] [[:File:World 5.png|title cards]]), not as one and the same being. The [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_NES/manual/Formated/Super_Mario_Bros._2_-_1986_-_Nintendo.pdf manual for SMB2] is unfortunately no help either; while it does describe Birdo as a singular character, that applies to ''every'' enemy in the game. {{User:Arend/sig}} 10:31, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::The amount of inconsistency here is further reason to list these all together. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:07, February 8, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::Well, not just in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', but in Birdo's subsequent appearances such as ''Wario's Woods'', ''Super Mario RPG'', ''Mario Tennis'', and so on, Birdo was being portrayed as more of a singular character without multiples of her at the same time. (''BS Super Mario USA'' would appear to be the first to show multiple Birdos, although it is Japan-only so not a widespread influence on the Western public opinion. Also, not sure if the decision to distinctly have multiple Birdos at once was from Nintendo EAD or St.GIGA, not that they would have cared too much.) And even when Birdos first appeared in the ''Mario Power Tennis'' cinematics, they made a point of not including any pink Birdos despite Camelot already having the model available from ''Toadstool Tour'' should they have so chosen, not even when the red Birdo appears in Bowser's trophy cutscene. To me, that was a conscious choice to distinguish pink Birdo the character from other Birdos, so I think there was some attempt to portray Birdo as an individual character for some time. (Not that it matters to my opinion on the page's fate though, we should keep them merged for ease of use.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 00:26, February 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::Western adaptations also tended to interpret them as a species, though in Nintendo Comics System King Koopa and his family members were pretty much the only enemy characters that ''weren't'' treated as a species whenever the writers felt like it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:33, February 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::Yeah, ''BS Super Mario USA'' is not actually the first Mario-related thing to show Birdo as a species, or at the very least show multiple Birdos in the same room. ''[[The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!]]'' has frequently utilized Birdos as part of the Koopa Pack, and the very first episode, "[[The Bird! The Bird!]]", introduces ''two'' Birdo characters unaffiliated with King Koopa. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:32, February 9, 2025 (EST)
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| :::::::Oh right, duh, I forgot about the ''Super Show'' appearances. I will say that these three appearances are still more niche portrayals of multiple Birdos outside of the main games (the start of which is in ''Mario Power Tennis'' where they're more front-and-center), and so it would make sense for these instances to be more obscure (especially before the advent of the Internet and archiving such information on a Wiki, heh). And then when there are multiple Birdos in a game, either the pink Birdo is singled out by being playable or not in the audience, or it's in a game like ''Strikers'' where they're colour-coded and also treated the same as other species/enemy characters. But I digress. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 20:37, February 9, 2025 (EST)
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| ::::::::In the ''Super Mario USA'' arc of the ''[[Super Mario (Kodansha manga)|Super Mario]]'' Kodansha manga, Birdo is referred to by her appropriate Japanese name of Catherine but is also given the nickname, "Cathie". ([[:File:KC Deluxe Mario USA enemies.jpg|on page 6]]) The Birdo that appears throughout most of the issue has a completely dark bow (presumably red) with no special pattern on it. On page 114, two other Birdos show up with special patterns on their bows to indicate they are not the same as the Birdo that has been seen throughout the other pages of the issue. ([[:File:Cathies.jpg|the 3 Birdos]]) From what I understand, neither of the other two Birdos are referred to by a name, not Catherine and not Cathie. So THE Birdo in the manga is the one Birdo referred to as "Cathie". [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])
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| :::::::::On the topic of [[Mario Kart 8]], a [[:File:MK8-WomenofRacing1.png|Women of Racing]] billboard shows Birdo (specifically "Pink Birdo"). This would imply that the playable pink Birdo is the character whereas the other colors are simply other birdos adding to the appearences of THE Birdo alongside other Birdos. [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])
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| ::::::::::That was there in the original game, whereas all playable ones were delayed DLC of the port several years later. Either way, nothing's stopping them all from being "the" Birdo. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:37, February 15, 2025 (EST)
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