| Latest revision |
Your text |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| {{no forum talk}} | | {{notforumtalk}} |
| {| class="infobox" style="float:right;border:black double 1px;background-color:#fdfdff;padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em 0.5em 1em;width:270px" | | {| class="infobox" style="float:right;border:black double 1px;background-color:#fdfdff;padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em 0.5em 1em;width:270px" |
| |- | | |- |
| Line 140: |
Line 140: |
| ::That all being said, though, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to merge the character and species pages outright, as they're in a wishy-washy place like [[Wiggler]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:10, March 29, 2020 (EDT) | | ::That all being said, though, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to merge the character and species pages outright, as they're in a wishy-washy place like [[Wiggler]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:10, March 29, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::Except Birdo as a character is always the pink one, and one hardly finds a lone pink Birdo in the audience. (As in, if there's an audience of Birdos, they're almost always the ''other'' colours.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:04, March 29, 2020 (EDT) | | :::Except Birdo as a character is always the pink one, and one hardly finds a lone pink Birdo in the audience. (As in, if there's an audience of Birdos, they're almost always the ''other'' colours.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:04, March 29, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::{{file link|Birdo Pink MSC.png|''cough''}}. You know how Nintendo's said that not all Yoshis and Toads with the species name are necessarily the same as each other? Same principle applies. Unlike those, however, Birdos haven't appeared in a relevant capacity as a singular character and species at the same time other than SMB2 (which is covered fairly equally on both pages regardless), negating any real benefit this doesn't but hypothetically ''could'' have. It's like what I said on Boom-Boom's talk page, it's all developer interpretation per game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:37, March 29, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::{{media link|Birdo Pink MSC.png|''cough''}}. You know how Nintendo's said that not all Yoshis and Toads with the species name are necessarily the same as each other? Same principle applies. Unlike those, however, Birdos haven't appeared in a relevant capacity as a singular character and species at the same time other than SMB2 (which is covered fairly equally on both pages regardless), negating any real benefit this doesn't but hypothetically ''could'' have. It's like what I said on Boom-Boom's talk page, it's all developer interpretation per game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:37, March 29, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::Not just SMB2. ''Mario Kart Tour'' features both ''the'' pink Birdo and a light-blue Birdo as playable characters. Also, in ''Mario Super Sluggers'', a game where Birdo is playable, you can see variously-colored Birdos in cutscenes. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 17:41, March 29, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::Not just SMB2. ''Mario Kart Tour'' features both ''the'' pink Birdo and a light-blue Birdo as playable characters. Also, in ''Mario Super Sluggers'', a game where Birdo is playable, you can see variously-colored Birdos in cutscenes. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 17:41, March 29, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::Problem with the MKT thing is that it's formatted in the exact same manner as the "costume" characters, indicating a similar view. MSS is admittedly a different situation, though given one of those is merely a background element, that hardly counts as a "relevant capacity" for the species any more than the multitude of Toadsworths and DKJrs in MKDD. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:02, March 29, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::Problem with the MKT thing is that it's formatted in the exact same manner as the "costume" characters, indicating a similar view. MSS is admittedly a different situation, though given one of those is merely a background element, that hardly counts as a "relevant capacity" for the species any more than the multitude of Toadsworths and DKJrs in MKDD. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:02, March 29, 2020 (EDT) |
| Line 155: |
Line 155: |
| :::::::::::::::::I believe the MPA ones have been severely mishandled, under the fallacy that they're in the same situation as Pengwen or Goombetty. They aren't, because they're simply one iteration of a development team's interpretation of a concept. This is especially the case for the Klepto in that game, since the original Klepto was an individual too. Another good example is whether Boom Boom is a character or a species; for NSMBU, the two regional English sources couldn't agree, and he's certainly an "individual" sometimes and a species at other times, and additionally he wasn't in SPM while Pom Pom (a definite individual of the species) was. As Mister Wu said on one of the Boom Boom talk pages, this is ultimately because in Japanese, the modifier for saying "[noun]" vs "a [noun]" isn't a thing, and without abstract thinking our western-grammar minds don't see that (though RareWare seemed to do the same with Klump and Krusha). On the subject of SPM, though, it shows that in certain cases (namely Kamek and Toad), they still are currently making distinctions....but Birdo hasn't had that in over 10 years. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:43, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::::::::::::I believe the MPA ones have been severely mishandled, under the fallacy that they're in the same situation as Pengwen or Goombetty. They aren't, because they're simply one iteration of a development team's interpretation of a concept. This is especially the case for the Klepto in that game, since the original Klepto was an individual too. Another good example is whether Boom Boom is a character or a species; for NSMBU, the two regional English sources couldn't agree, and he's certainly an "individual" sometimes and a species at other times, and additionally he wasn't in SPM while Pom Pom (a definite individual of the species) was. As Mister Wu said on one of the Boom Boom talk pages, this is ultimately because in Japanese, the modifier for saying "[noun]" vs "a [noun]" isn't a thing, and without abstract thinking our western-grammar minds don't see that (though RareWare seemed to do the same with Klump and Krusha). On the subject of SPM, though, it shows that in certain cases (namely Kamek and Toad), they still are currently making distinctions....but Birdo hasn't had that in over 10 years. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:43, April 1, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::::::::::::::::::Don't worry, I understand Japanese and their lack of pluralisation. Anyhow, Birdo ''does'' appear in ''Super Mario Party'', and I think is the only pink Birdo in that game. I haven't really progressed in that game to say for certain, though, and have only seen her starting dialogue where she talks about "such and such happening in previous games", but that "she wasn't actually there". This could go either way as indication that this is not the individual Birdo from past ''Mario Party'' games, or that she hasn't been playable in all of them. Regardless, would you agree that if we were to move to writing the Birdo page as an "abstract concept", that this issue would move beyond one of just Birdo and towards the Wiki's definition of a "character"? [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 20:33, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | | ::::::::::::::::::Don't worry, I understand Japanese and their lack of pluralisation. Anyhow, Birdo ''does'' appear in ''Super Mario Party'', and I think is the only pink Birdo in that game. I haven't really progressed in that game to say for certain, though, and have only seen her starting dialogue where she talks about "such and such happening in previous games", but that "she wasn't actually there". This could go either way as indication that this is not the individual Birdo from past ''Mario Party'' games, or that she hasn't been playable in all of them. Regardless, would you agree that if we were to move to writing the Birdo page as an "abstract concept", that this issue would move beyond one of just Birdo and towards the Wiki's definition of a "character"? [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 20:33, April 1, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::::::::::::::::::We have quite a few cases of characters bearing the name of the species/group and having the standard appearance of that species/group. I'm starting to think that for Nintendo the question of whether that Birdo is recurring isn't even there. It's not that she's not the same, she might very well be the same Birdo all the times, it's just that for Nintendo this doesn't seem to be relevant at all. Another example? Since it was brought up in the discussion, [https://www.kadokawa.co.jp/product/321808000468/ this character book from Kadokawa and Gzbrain] is so recent that it cover ''Super Mario Party'', it has the {{file link|MCDSZ Toad.png|Toad artwork from that game}} (and the one of Toadette, too). And it also mentions Magikoopa in the two pages about the recurring enemies in the Mario games (oddly not in the two pages about the Turtle Tribe, probably beacuse of a lack of space). You'd think they feature ''the'' Kamek, the one in ''Super Mario Party''. And yet, {{file link|MCDSZ Magikoopa.png|they feature the ''Kamek'' in ''Super Mario 3D World'' instead}}, complete with generic description of what the enemies does in most games - throwing magic and warping. If you had any doubts about the relevance of the existence of ''the'' Kamek in Japan after the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', this new book won't surely help you remove any of them (and also makes me question what is Kamek's Japanese dialogue in ''Super Mario Party''). Ultimately, this ''generic member of the group/species'' approach is something that might make sense in Japan (and is reflected in their use of the same term to refer to a generic individual, a specific individual and even multiple individuals), not really in the West. I don't think we'll be able to break this cultural barrier soon, at least the proposals attempts so far showed this. It's a grey area that looks like for now will stay as it is, I guess until we understand this really-unintuitive-for-us approach ourselves and find a way to convey the concept to a Western audience.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:01, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | | :::::::::::::::::::We have quite a few cases of characters bearing the name of the species/group and having the standard appearance of that species/group. I'm starting to think that for Nintendo the question of whether that Birdo is recurring isn't even there. It's not that she's not the same, she might very well be the same Birdo all the times, it's just that for Nintendo this doesn't seem to be relevant at all. Another example? Since it was brought up in the discussion, [https://www.kadokawa.co.jp/product/321808000468/ this character book from Kadokawa and Gzbrain] is so recent that it cover ''Super Mario Party'', it has the {{media link|MCDSZ Toad.png|Toad artwork from that game}} (and the one of Toadette, too). And it also mentions Magikoopa in the two pages about the recurring enemies in the Mario games (oddly not in the two pages about the Turtle Tribe, probably beacuse of a lack of space). You'd think they feature ''the'' Kamek, the one in ''Super Mario Party''. And yet, {{media link|MCDSZ Magikoopa.png|they feature the ''Kamek'' in ''Super Mario 3D World'' instead}}, complete with generic description of what the enemies does in most games - throwing magic and warping. If you had any doubts about the relevance of the existence of ''the'' Kamek in Japan after the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', this new book won't surely help you remove any of them (and also makes me question what is Kamek's Japanese dialogue in ''Super Mario Party''). Ultimately, this ''generic member of the group/species'' approach is something that might make sense in Japan (and is reflected in their use of the same term to refer to a generic individual, a specific individual and even multiple individuals), not really in the West. I don't think we'll be able to break this cultural barrier soon, at least the proposals attempts so far showed this. It's a grey area that looks like for now will stay as it is, I guess until we understand this really-unintuitive-for-us approach ourselves and find a way to convey the concept to a Western audience.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:01, April 1, 2020 (EDT) |
|
| |
|
| I understand BBQ Turtle, but Birdo is playable in 26 games, not 24. The Birdo (species)'s page doesn't take care to list her playable appearance in the "List of appeareance by date"'s section cause there's not. So, there is a problem, in one page, we can't count the good numbers of appearance. We can't know she is playable in these 2 games, cause no information refer to her Birdo (species)'s page and even if we go on that page, the informations aren't even listed. On one page, we miss some informations about her to made a complete page and on the other, we don't even list things so we aren't able to list the number of her appearance without read all to be sure how many time she is playable in general and as a specie character. That was said, if the community can't cooperate and make a complete page about a character, because some people got a bad opinion of that character, that site is distorted. We are not supposed to put subjective opinion here. We can object, she is not relevant (1), she is just a minion (2), she is not like Toad and Yoshi (3), she make appearance in stage (4), but all of these reason doesn't work. | | I understand BBQ Turtle, but Birdo is playable in 26 games, not 24. The Birdo (species)'s page doesn't take care to list her playable appearance in the "List of appeareance by date"'s section cause there's not. So, there is a problem, in one page, we can't count the good numbers of appearance. We can't know she is playable in these 2 games, cause no information refer to her Birdo (species)'s page and even if we go on that page, the informations aren't even listed. On one page, we miss some informations about her to made a complete page and on the other, we don't even list things so we aren't able to list the number of her appearance without read all to be sure how many time she is playable in general and as a specie character. That was said, if the community can't cooperate and make a complete page about a character, because some people got a bad opinion of that character, that site is distorted. We are not supposed to put subjective opinion here. We can object, she is not relevant (1), she is just a minion (2), she is not like Toad and Yoshi (3), she make appearance in stage (4), but all of these reason doesn't work. |
| Line 223: |
Line 223: |
|
| |
|
| == Split Birdo and Shelly == | | == Split Birdo and Shelly == |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|4-1|split}} | | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|4-1|split}} |
| Birdo is an egg-shooting dinosaur. Shelly is a giant egg what contains Birdo in a single game. Regardless, not actually the same subject, and as such should be split. | | Birdo is an egg-shooting dinosaur. Shelly is a giant egg what contains Birdo in a single game. Regardless, not actually the same subject, and as such should be split. |
|
| |
|
| Line 244: |
Line 244: |
| ::Think it's a bit late in the process for that now, but it'll be easier to do that down the line when these are split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:10, April 15, 2022 (EDT) | | ::Think it's a bit late in the process for that now, but it'll be easier to do that down the line when these are split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:10, April 15, 2022 (EDT) |
|
| |
|
| ==Birdo's Vehicle Combo in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe== | | ====Birdo's Vehicle Combo in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe==== |
| Just letting you guys know that Birdo uses the Mach 8 kart with Slim tires and the Super Glider in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. I can't edit the page to include this info though because it's protected, so can someone add it for me? Thanks. [[User:Bubbabyte|Bubbabyte]] ([[User talk:Bubbabyte|talk]]) 9:23, March 8, 2022 (EDT) | | Just letting you guys know that Birdo uses the Mach 8 kart with Slim tires and the Super Glider in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. I can't edit the page to include this info though because it's protected, so can someone add it for me? Thanks. [[User:Bubbabyte|Bubbabyte]] ([[User talk:Bubbabyte|talk]]) 9:23, March 8, 2022 (EDT) |
|
| |
| ==Birdo and her species==
| |
| I think the character, Birdo and her species should have seperate pages of their own like Yoshi and Toad to distinguish them from their species since they represents them.
| |
|
| |
| If you agree or disagree pls do leave a reply here.
| |
|
| |
| October 12, 2023
| |
| [[User:SuperBallBro|SuperBallBro]]
| |
| :They were split before, but got merged because of [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|this proposal]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 07:08, October 12, 2023 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| == In the Superstar Saga section it should be mention that was the last game to feature Birdo as an enemy, not counting remakes ==
| |
|
| |
| I had tried to had this exact line “Not counting remakes, this game marks the last time Birdo appears as an enemy” to the Superstar Saga page but I was told I had to take it here in order to get it added, so if somebody could please add that to the page in the Superstar Saga section I would very much appreciate it. time [[Special:Contributions/35.137.237.68|35.137.237.68]] 10:56 November 20 2023 (EDT)
| |
| :Actually, She is fought in the Bowser's Minions campaign as well, is is exclusive to the remake, so the point actually isn't that notable since the remake is still fairly recent. [[User:Sdman213|Sdman213]] ([[User talk:Sdman213|talk]]) 00:23, November 21, 2023 (EST)
| |
| ::Well personally I disagree, since well that’s just a different mode for the game that is a remake but I understand I can’t change your mind there, just thought I would respond since I have not responded to this statement yet [[Special:Contributions/35.137.237.68|35.137.237.68]] 10:56 November 20 2023 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| == Super Mario Bros. Super Show "The Bird! The Bird!" ==
| |
| Should this episode be added to Birdo's appearances in the Super Show? It's not listed despite prominently featuring two Birdo characters. I'd add it myself, but I'm not sure if there's some kind of deeper reason it's not listed here.--[[User:Nintenboi1|Nintenboi1]] ([[User talk:Nintenboi1|talk]]) 19:14, November 29, 2023 (EST)
| |
| :Proooooobably focusing on generic unnamed Birdos, but not sure if that's a good reason (especially since some of the listed ones are '''NOT''' generic, merely unnamed). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:26, November 29, 2023 (EST)
| |
|
| |
| == Split Birdo and Birdo (species) ==
| |
| {{Settled TPP}}
| |
| {{Proposal outcome|failed|3-9|keep merged}}
| |
|
| |
| I see no compelling reason why Birdo was merged with Birdo (species) in the [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|this proposal]] that instituted the merge. We have everything from mainline staples like [[Yoshi (species)]], [[Toad (species)]], [[Koopa (species)]], and [[Star (species)]] to lesser known and less distinguished pages like [[Owl (species)]]. With nearly 50 different appearances in ''Mario'' games as a standalone character rather than just represented as a species, I’d like to recognize Birdo as the icon that she is rather than as simply a modge podge of random, indistinguishable dinosaurs.
| |
|
| |
| She is featured as an individual character with the same frequency as Yoshi or Toad. Another, better comparable example is the distinction between [[Lakitu]] and [[Lakitu (Mario Kart referee)]]. That Lakitu is distinguishable from the regular Lakitus enough to be featured on his own, standalone page, and so is the beloved Birdo. Yes, Kart racers like the Koopa, Lakitu, Boo, etc. are featured in the page for their species, but Birdo is far more than just a Kart racer. With appearances as an individual character in everything from the ''Mario Golf'' series, ''Mario Tennis'' series, ''Mario Party'' series, ''Mario & Luigi'' series, ''Paper Mario'' series, ''Mario Baseball'' series, ''Mario & Sonic'' series, and one-offs like ''Captain Rainbow'' and ''Mario Hoops 3-on-3'', it's clear that she's every much an individual as Yoshi or Toad.
| |
|
| |
| When [[Draggadon]], [[Koopa Kid]], and [[Dorrie]] (referenced in the merge proposal) become as iconic as Birdo and are featured in nearly 50 games as an individual character rather than just a random member of a larger species, then we can cite them as similar examples. Until then, while they remain largely indistinguishable from one another and lack a developed personality, like the singular Birdo character, I cannot see the comparison between them and Birdo as valid.
| |
|
| |
| Additionally, having the two pages merged has created considerable confusion on this talk page.
| |
|
| |
| '''Proposer''': {{User|DrBaskerville}}<br>
| |
| '''Deadline''': July 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
| |
|
| |
| === Support: Split Birdo and Birdo (species) ===
| |
| #{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal.
| |
| #{{User|SuperBallBro}} Per proposal for my point in this section I written. [https://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:Birdo#Birdo_key_facts_and_behaviors]
| |
| #{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal. Sure, the Birdo (species) article may be short, but I’m sure there are shorter articles on this wiki.
| |
|
| |
| === Oppose: Keep merged ===
| |
| #{{User|Hewer}} Per the original proposal. It's not that there's too little to say about the Birdo character, it's that there's too little to say about the Birdo species, and I don't know of any official distinction given between the two subjects besides there being multiple of the species, which made the old split basically fan speculation. Splitting the same subject based on whether there's multiple or not in any given game when the devs don't even seem to care seems a bit daft, and is not something we do for other species like Koopa Troopa or Shy Guy where there'll sometimes be playable ones distinct from non-playable ones, or the playable one will be the only instance of the character to appear in a game. This is why the opening of the Birdo article uses this particular wording: "While Birdo is often portrayed as an individual character, there have also been many appearances of multiple Birdos that come in different colors and that sometimes have different characteristics." It's a whimsical and fantastical franchise that often doesn't care about making narrative sense, so I feel like there can be multiple of a character without us having to invent explanations about a distinct species and split pages over it (the [[Talk:Boom Boom (species)#Merge this with Boom Boom|former Boom Boom split]] having been the most egregious example of this). The merge isn't supposed to devalue the Birdo character's importance or anything, not sure why you thought that. Yoshi, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa I think have better cases to stay split given more of a distinction is sometimes made, and the "Koopa (species)", "Owl (species)", and "Star (species)" pages are not relevant, they're not really part of a species/character split in the same vein.
| |
| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per Hewer.
| |
| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per.
| |
| #{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} I'm not denying the fact that there is a species that Birdo also belongs in and that the games make an obvious distinction of that fact. My biggest question is how do you try to talk about while not also tying back to ''the'' Birdo? It's a bit weird and I'm probably hypocrite because we could argue for mering Toad and Yoshi, but we really don't know too much about what Birdo's species actually is. The Once and Only Once rule is an example of why this gets difficult. Also, Toads in the Japanese scripts did have unique names at one point, before they used the names that the mushroom retainers had.
| |
| #{{User|Biggestman}} Per all. Also in recent times Nintendo seem to be dropping Birdo being a whole species anyways
| |
| #{{User|MarioComix}} Looking just [[Talk:Birdo#This_Birdo.27s_page_miss_all_informations_about_her_playable_appearance_in_Super_Mario_Strikers_and_Mario_Strikers_Charged.|above]], we can see one of the fatal pitfalls of having both Birdo and Birdo (species) as a page. By distinguishing them, people trying to find "Birdo in Mario Strikers" can't find this info on the Birdo page and instead have to find the species page. After all, Birdo as a character doesn't appear in ''Strikers'' so wouldn't have any reference to ''Strikers'' on her own page. As much as I agree that Birdo is a prominent standalone character, it's also valid to keep a singular page for "Birdo as a character and species".
| |
| #{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.
| |
| #{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
| |
|
| |
| === Comments ===
| |
| Sorry, but as Hewer says, there's just not enough to say about the Birdo species considering that she's like Yoshi in that there can be an individual character or multiple playable species. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :I disagree based on all that was contained on the [https://web.archive.org/web/20220312003817/https://www.mariowiki.com/Birdo_(species) original split page]. Hopefully @Hewer will see this, too. This page will need some cleaning up if we revive it, chiefly removing references to Birdo as a character, but there's ample examples of members of the Birdo species playing roles in media outside of the main Birdo character. Even if there wasn't, there's a difference between [[Special:ShortPages]] and [[:Category:Stubs]]. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 15:41, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::I went over my problems with that article back in my 2021 merge proposal. To quote myself: "Some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Birdo is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario Bros. 2 information [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|being on both pages]] (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Birdos are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Birdo is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Birdos are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Birdos of different colours treated like normal Birdo, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Birdo article." Compare the [[Shy Guy]] article, which talks about a playable character, other playable Shy Guys of different colours, and NPC Shy Guys like enemies and audience members, all in a single article without issue. Why shouldn't Birdo be the same? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:19, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :::I understand your position, and I don't think its wrong; I just don't agree with it. I would argue that Birdo is a more established character than most other characters in the series. Being an established character at all necessitates having a page, which is something we agree on. Where we diverge is the belief that Birdo's species is synyonopous with Birdo as a character. This leads me to two questions. First, why should Yoshi and Toad be split between species and character? What notable differences are there between the characters and the species in those cases that necessitates separate pages? Secondly, what is the difference between your argument on Birdo compared to, for example, merging [[Crate guy]] and all other minor Piantas into the main [[Pianta]] article? Crate guy is a specific member of the Pianta species, just as Birdo is a specific member of the Birdo species. Is the only difference that she shares a name with her species? If that's the answer, then what about the other names Birdo uses, like Catherine or Birdetta, that differentiate between her and other Birdos? We have multiple members of the Birdo species, which have their own pages ([[Cheepy]], [[Giant Birdo]], [[Thunderbirdo]]). If we had as many Birdo characters as we do Pianta characters, would the species then deserve its own page? {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:08, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::::Yoshi and Toad are at least officially treated as having a level of distinction that Birdo doesn't really have. For instance, "[[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Yoshi's Crafted World|There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis: red, pink, blue, yellow, and more.]]" I see Birdo less as a member of a Birdo species and more as a character of flexible plurality like Boom Boom. Crate guy I don't think is comparable since he's a particular individual Pianta with a distinct name and role ("Catherine" is just the Japanese name for Birdo, and "Birdetta" is, as far as I can tell, a one-off alternate name from a single guidebook from three and a half decades ago). And I don't think the other individual Birdo characters from the Super Show change anything either, having distinct members generally doesn't really affect whether a species should get an article in my opinion. The [[Three Shadows]] appear to all be of a single species, but despite having multiple distinct members, [[Talk:Demon#Reinstate this page as an article for the Shadow Queen and Shadow Siren's species|this species was denied an article]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:48, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| :::::I agree that Yoshi and Toad have a high level of distinction, but I believe Birdo does as well. For example, she's featured on the [[:File:MK8-WomenofRacing1.png]] alongside Daisy and Peach, is officially speculated to be Yoshi's girlfriend in [[Birdo#Relationship_with_Yoshi]] (MK:DD), and has an important role in video game history as one, if not ''the'', first [https://newnormative.com/2017/10/26/lgbtqia-representation-in-gaming-birdo/ trans character in a video game]. These are all references to the individual Birdo, not the Birdo species. I think Birdo is not only distinct as a Mario character but distinct in the video game industry as a whole. She's identifiable, perhaps not by name, by many who would have no idea who most of the other Mario characters are, and I would feel comfortable saying the average person doesn't realize she shares the name as her species. The fact that she as an individual has established relationships with people like Yoshi, Mario, Popple, etc. suggests enough notoriety to be distinguished from every other Birdo, regardless of the notoriety of the Birdo species as a whole. I just find it diminutive of her presence and prominence in the series to not afford her independent coverage.
| |
| :::::<br>To your points about Crate guy, ("he's a particular individual Pianta with a distinct name and role"), I don't see how the same is not true for Birdo? Birdo absolutely exists as an individual, a point I don't think you refute; the only difference being Birdo, who has, regardless of source or how long ago it was, been referred to by multiple names and nicknames, including Birdie, which I forgot to mention. Besides, "crate guy" is hardly a name; its just an easy way to identify him. My overall point in referencing him is to illustrate that there other examples of characters, considerably more minor than Birdo, having independent articles rather than articles that just include information about the individual on a page that otherwise focuses on the species. I think we need a unified approach to covering individuals vs. species, and, other than Birdo, I think the wiki does a good job balancing that. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 20:30, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
| |
| ::::::I feel like you're still missing my main point, that I disagree there is a Birdo individual who is a member of the Birdo species, so much as a Birdo character who there can sometimes be multiple of. Again, it's a franchise that doesn't often care about making narrative sense, it's not our job to invent in-universe explanations for the somewhat inconsistent depictions. Bringing up recognisability is a strange point as I feel like most people seeing a Birdo would assume it's "the Birdo character". Heck, even the other colours of Birdo could be argued as potentially the same character - in Mario Kart Tour and 8 Deluxe, they use names like "Birdo (Yellow)", matching the naming of variants like "Mario (Musician)", whereas Yoshi and even Shy Guy colours instead use names like "Yellow Yoshi". It's much more helpful to just forgo the speculation and keep all the Birdo information on a single page so people can find it, be it a character or a species, especially in cases like SMB2 where we aren't even sure. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:06, June 29, 2024 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| One of the things I repeatedly brought up during the initial merge: "What about Wiggler?" Wiggler has been treated as a singular character almost as often as a species at this point and generally has a pretty consistent characterization, yet has never been split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:17, July 4, 2024 (EDT)
| |
|
| |
| == Birdo key facts and behaviors ==
| |
|
| |
| I don't think Birdo is one character, but her species is generally uncommon or even rare. Why we there's usually one birdo in each level in SMB2. They as guards or wild Birdos that are soiltary sometimes Birdos come together.
| |
|
| |
| I think there's both a male and female Birdos. I don't believe that Birdo is transgender but rather a species' different individuals which has many distinct Birdos. Birdo is indeed a species that even has a subspecies called the Birdaroo and others like Robobirdo, Thunder Birdo etc.
| |
|
| |
| Now we should know that Birdo is part a species with the same name just like [[Yoshi]] and [[Toad]].
| |
|
| |
| [[User:SuperBallBro]] July 4, 2024 12:08 am (EST)
| |
|
| |
| == Are Thunderbirdos a subspecies or a notable member. ==
| |
|
| |
| I think the Thunderbirdo is a subspecies of Birdo rather than a notable member. I believe they had more members than one larger birdo at least what I recall. The page in the Thunderbirdo calls it a variant of a birdo. {{User|SuperBallBro}} 7:29 p.m. / 19:29 (EST)
| |
