Editing Talk:Birdo

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*'''[[Talk:Birdo/Archive 1|Archive 1]]'''
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== Gender ==

Birdo and Yoshi both are genderless. [[Special:Contributions/24.187.191.151|24.187.191.151]] 22:52, 24 January 2013 (EST)
:Yeah, no. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 23:27, 24 January 2013 (EST)
::I called nintendo, and I did get the answer that birdo was genderless...not sure about yoshi however. [[Special:Contributions/23.16.104.17|23.16.104.17]] 20:08, 28 March 2013 (EDT)
:::I also work for Nintendo and am the President of the United States. What's your point? Where's your proof? Nintendo hasn't formally confirmed that Birdo is genderless. Let's leave it as it is. {{User:BabyLuigiOnFire/sig}}
::::I was just saying, I wasn't asking for the page to be edited in such way. {{User:JacobGuy7800/sig}}

I think the birdo in spinoffs is a girl but in various other games it is genderless or male. --[[User:Poponana2|Poponana2]] ([[User talk:Poponana2|talk]]) 23:13, 2 January 2014 (EST)

==The Condition of Birdo's Page==
It is repetitive to state that Birdo lacks a speed boost twice throughout her page. This is stated in the Mario Kart Wii section and the Trivia section. Should this be fixed? Secondly shouldn't every single "she" pronoun on Birdo's page be changed to it? The reason why I am bring this infamous topic up again is because previous discussions in Birdo's talk page states that "her" gender is unconfirmed in America. If this is true and has been announced by a Nintendo representitive, this page needs to be revised entirely to match accurate documented information. Also if this idea is to be taken into consideration, new sources relevant to this situation need to be found and documented. Lastly, if Birdo's gender is unconfirmed, that information needs to be validated in her gender section; if all of this turns out to be accurate, the "gender section" needs revisions and needs to be updated with accurate information. (The section's current state is fairly vague in terms of describing many facts about Birdo's gender.) [[User:FireFlower]]
:The constellation information in ''[[Mario Party 9]]'' that is referring to Birdo uses a 'her'. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 05:00, 13 June 2013 (EDT)
::There have been numerous discussions about Birdo's gender. On the archived Birdo talk page, there's [[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#Rewrite?|1]], [[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#Birdo|2]], [[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#Isn't Birdo a Guy?|3]], [[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#"It" is not correct|4]], [[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#Birdo's Gender|5]], [[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#Gender?|6]], ''[[Talk:Birdo/Archive_1#Mario Kart: Double Dash!! Manual|7]]'' sections that address it, plus the section above this section on this page, and [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/14#Birdo.27s_Gender|not one]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/19#Birdo.27s_Sex_Revisited|not two]], but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/20#Deciding_Birdo.27s_Sex|three proposals]] about it. Aside from some earlier indecision, everything has been in agreement that for all intents and purposes, she's a female, and female pronouns will be used from her on this wiki. Using "it" when referring to sapient beings is really inappropriate and while ''SSBB'' may have committed that faux pas, we're not going to do that here. Also, while ''SSBB'' and some unconfirmed Nintendo representative speaking on the telephone (hardly an announcement) say she's genderless, the vast majority of English-language ''Mario'' releases call her female, last I checked, and our article reflects that majority rule, rather than the few exceptions, one of which can't be verified. The Gender sections ''does'' mention ''SSBB'' and the original ''SMB2'' stuff; perhaps some more games besides ''M&L:SS'' could be cited to back up the "most of the time NoA and NoE call her a girl" point, and more info on non-English versions would make the section even more informative (like the [[Vivian#Gender|Vivian page]]), but while it could be ''expanded'', the section's current body of info is neither outdated nor obstructively vague. Long story short, Birdo's gender is ''not'' unconfirmed: most English sources say she's female and that's what we're going with; if anyone wants to change the wiki's stance on this controversial matter, it'll need to be attempted via a TPP or a Proposal, rather than an informal discussion. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 11:30, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

Okay thank you. Is Birdo a male in Japan though? [[User:FireFlower]]
:I believe Birdo is a male in Japan, yes. However, this wiki is geared towards English, and especially North American, versions of games, so the majority of pages would follow what the NOA version of the game says. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:55, 13 June 2013 (EDT)
::Well, going by what little info we have, it sounds like she's meant to be ''physically'' male, but dresses (and acts and probably talks) like a girl, and either wants to be female (''SMB2'') or fully identifies as female (''Captain Rainbow''). Again, having more info would be helpful for nailing it down, although I suspect it's not meant to be taken seriously either way... - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 19:48, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

Suspecting Birdo is male in Japan and having American sources say Birdo is female makes no sense and is bound to make the controversial matter more questionable. '''If Birdo actually is male in Japan, then Birdo is male in all the games, simply because all of the nations obtain their merchandise from Japan. ''' Despite all of this, are their '''any''' Japenese representitives or sources stating she is female? Also, if Nintendo wanted or knows Birdo by a male, why is her appearance so feminine if she is male? [[User:FireFlower]]
:The Japanese versions ''do not'' overrule the other languages: [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|everything is canon]] and of equal importance and validity. The gender section deals with the conflicting story, which is the best we can do; the rest of the page treats her as a girl, partly because it's an English database and if we have to go with something, we'll go with that (similar to how we go with the latest story when something's been retconned), but also because [[wikipedia:Transgender|transgender]] males who look, act and identify as females ''should'' be referred to as female. Either way, it's the simplest and most politically correct solution. We can't be sure where in the trans spectrum Birdo falls without more info, but there's still enough evidence (including the original English localization of ''SMB2'', before the censorship kicked in) to indicate that her chosen gender is or would be female, and while Nintendo may joke around with it, we're gonna call her a female. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:26, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

Okay, but no one has answered my question. Are their any Japenese sources confirming her female gender. Also on many sources I have read calling Birdo a gender confused male in The Super Mario Bros 2 instruction manual state that was an '''accident''' which caused contreversy. Secondly, the quote for Birdo's bio on Mario Kart Double Dash in Japan, is a question not a complete sentence that is stating a fact. Finally, the SMB2 manual accident is stated on [[Ostro]]'s page which happens to be on this wiki. Lastly, if their are any Japense sources site them so I can view them or if thats against policy rules let me know how you can distribute them to me. [[User:FireFlower]]
:The Ostro/Birdo mix-up has nothing to do with the validity of the "Birdo's a guy who wants to be a girl" instruction manual bio: that's way too elaborate to be an accident. The ''MK:DD'' sentence isn't a question, it's simply left hanging, rather than spelling it out, but it's pretty clear what it was talking about. I don't have any additional Japanese sources at this time to refer to; if anyone else can help with that, that'd be great. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:02, 16 June 2013 (EDT)

== Gender - Manual source ==
Article states:
:According to the North American instruction manual of Super Mario Bros. 2:
::"Birdo thinks he is a girl and likes to be called Birdetta. He likes to wear a bow on his head and shoot eggs from his mouth."
Is that really in the NA manual? I only found this, which can also be found at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdo#Concept_and_creation wikipedia] and is there said to be in the NA manual:
:"Ostro: He thinks he is a girl and he spits eggs from his mouth." (USA manual, page 27).
So please name the page number or change it. -[[Special:Contributions/80.133.125.90|80.133.125.90]] 05:38, 28 September 2013 (EDT)

::Page 27, but it seems that there's two versions of the manual floating around, because [http://www.digitpress.com/library/manuals/nes/Super%20Mario%20Bros%202.pdf the one here (PDF)] has the "Birdetta" line, but [http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Bros_2-NES.pdf the one here (PDF)] only has the egg-spitting part (this second one is also where [[wikipedia:File:Super_Mario_Bros_2_-_Birdo--article_image.jpg|Wikipedia seemingly got their info]]. Very odd... - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 18:20, 28 September 2013 (EDT)

== Is confirmed portrayal? ==

They're listed Birdo's voice actor. I don't think its voice actor is same as Yoshi. It's very sounds different. Birdo's voice sounds like weird noise. Is really same voice actor? Sound effect is more appropriate. <span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">[[User:Tempest Tales|<font color="#FF40C0">Jufemia</font>]] [[User talk:Tempest Tales|<font color="#800080">li Britannia</font>]]</span> 15:28, 1 November 2013 (EDT)
:I highly doubt that Kazumi Totaka (the voice of the present Yoshi) voiced Birdo. Birdo sounds kinda like a voice, unlike Koopa Troopa, Goomba, and Monty Mole, so I don't know if it's computer generated or a voice. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 18:51, 1 November 2013 (EDT)

== Some suggestions from a transgender woman ==

So i'm really happy with how this wiki has addressed Birdetta's gender and pronouns. One weird slip up i noticed is that under the section on gender another transgender character, Catherine, is reffered to as male and called "he". For the sake of clarity i would recommend, whenever referencing the birth sex of an a character with transgender affiliations who was born male the wiki should used the term Designated-Male-At-Birth (or DMAB) as it clarifies birth sex while also implying that the individual may not necessarily agree with the designation.
[[User:Orthodoxwaffle|Orthodoxwaffle]] ([[User talk:Orthodoxwaffle|talk]]) 20:40, 19 February 2014 (EST)
:Thanks for the input - it's duly noted. It's good to have some guidance from actual trans persons on this matter. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 20:51, 19 February 2014 (EST)
:Yeah, I can definitely get behind this. {{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 20:56, 19 February 2014 (EST)
::I'm a bit wary of using very specific terminology like that, seeing as we're already going a step beyond ambiguity-loving Nintendo by actually calling her transgender. But you're certainly right that the male pronouns were incorrect, and I've changed them to female. My guess is that they were holdovers from when it was argued that the Japanese version just as Birdo/Catherine as a transvestite rather than a transgender character, but the "believes she's female" point is certainly an indication that she's transgender in that version as well, and I'm surprised none of us caught that earlier. Thank you for pointing it out. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 21:07, 19 February 2014 (EST)

:::Oh i see, Catherine is the japanese name, i thought it was another character. Wait, so Nintendo named her Catherine in Japan and then the NA translation team took the already English name Catherine and changed it to "Birdetta/Birdo". Whatever possessed them to do something so bass-ackwards? [[User:Orthodoxwaffle|Orthodoxwaffle]] ([[User talk:Orthodoxwaffle|talk]]) 21:25, 20 February 2014 (EST)

so is Birdo a species now? [[User:Grand Master Gamer|Grand Master Gamer]] ([[User talk:Grand Master Gamer|talk]]) 13:15, 19 June 2014 (EDT)

:Yes, since SMB2. {{User:Koopakoolklub/sig}} 13:25, 19 June 2014 (EDT)

== Staff ghost on Mario Kart Wii ==

Does anybody know why Birdo was not used a staff ghost for any of the courses in Mario Kart Wii? [[User:Davebrayfb|Davebrayfb]] ([[User talk:Davebrayfb|talk]]) 14:18, 31 May 2015 (EDT)
:None of the staff picked her, I'm assuming. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 18:48, 31 May 2015 (EDT)

:Well, yes, but why did none of the staff pick her? [[User:Davebrayfb|Davebrayfb]] ([[User talk:Davebrayfb|talk]]) 07:11, 1 June 2015 (EDT)
::Unfortunately we don't have any concrete facts on that. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 23:03, 1 June 2015 (EDT)

== Gender ==

Is the gender section really necessary? {{User:PowerKamek/sig}} 11:00, 23 July 2015 (EDT)
:Yes. {{User|Yoshi876}}
::Just wanted to know, thanks! {{User:PowerKamek/sig}} 11:11, 23 July 2015 (EDT)

== gender theory ==

I've notice that some of birdo's bows can be removed while others can't, could the ones that can't be removed the girls and the ones that can be the boys? oh P.S. Remember the birdo whose only purpose is to fire eggs so you can ride them across the waterfall? Since this one is actually helpful, could it be that it's the recurring playable character?
:I'm afraid this is all pure speculation and so, of no use to the wiki's articles. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 20:08, 17 March 2016 (EDT)

== One question… ==

Despite being Yoshi's partner, has Birdo appeared in a ''[[Yoshi (series)|Yoshi]]'' game? [[User:Toco Bell|Toco]] [[User talk:Toco Bell|Bell]] 

:No but Birdo is only Yoshi's partner in some select games. These include merely ''Mario Tennis'' (N64), ''Mario Baseball'' games, ''Double Dash'' and ''Mario Kart Wii'', and ''Mario Party 7'' and ''Mario Party 9'' (and unofficially ''Mario Party 8'' since this game does not indicate any official partners). This relationship does not perpetuate in nearly as many games as Daisy (to Peach) or Waluigi (to Wario) and so is not significant to the article - that is, her role as Yoshi's partner is not concrete enough to warrant adding a note that she has not appeared in a ''Yoshi'' game. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 01:06, 11 April 2016 (EDT)

== Mario Power Tennis ==

Birdo makes a brief cameo in Mario Power Tennis in Bowser's trophy celebration scene. I'd add that in.
{{unsigned|Lemurboy123}}

:Except that's a red Birdo, and not the pink Birdo character whom this page covers. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 18:27, 24 July 2016 (EDT)

== Mario tennis power tour ==

hey i am new here and i am wandering i looked through videos of Mario tennis power tour and i havent seen birdo there could someone put up a picture and upload it to the gallery of birdo please on a side note is it the main pink birdo or the different coloured birdos???
:Welcome, but thing is, Birdo's not in the game at all. We don't just add photos of characters who aren't in the game(s). Even if Birdo (of any kind) is in the game, she's not important in any way. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 11:50, 21 August 2016 (EDT)

On the main page it said birdo makes an npc appearance in mario tennis power tour for the gameboyadvance in the rpg story it said birdo makes an appearance when [[Ace]] and [[Clay]]arrive at peach dome  if birdo is not in the game who put it up o cant see any pink birdos or multicoloured birdos try to reply back {{unsigned|Mariobirdofan02}}

I would like to investigate myself on this matter. I'll be looking for information. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 20:19, 22 August 2016 (EDT)

Well is there proof or  a fact that Birdo is in Mario Tennis power tour it has been a month now. [[User:Mariobirdofan02|Mariobirdofan02]]

:Unfortunately I could not find any evidence of her being in the game. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 01:13, 10 October 2016 (EDT)

== Any confirmation that the different colored Birdos are one and the same? ==

In the Satellaview game they're identified as separate. The Advance version of Super Mario Bros 2 also implied they're separate due to having different pitched voices. [[User:Delsait|Delsait]] ([[User talk:Delsait|talk]]) 19:23, 24 January 2017 (EST)

==Voice== 
I was noticing in mario sports superstars that birdo has better English as she is able to speak a bit telepathically such as hello and oh no. If you listen she says them in her usual honking noise ,but clearly is English. Is there a reason for someone deleting them in the brand new quotes section, if someone could leave an answer we could discuss it. [[User:Mariobirdofan02|Mariobirdofan02]]

== Theme song ==

The article mentions 2012 Olympics being the first game to give Birdo her own theme song, but she actually had one three years earlier in Captain Rainbow. Or is that one just not counted since it isn't really a Mario game? [[User:SuperDragonRosalina|SuperDragonRosalina]] ([[User talk:SuperDragonRosalina|talk]]) 09:27, 12 May 2017 (EDT)

:Probably it's referring to within ''Mario'' games. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 18:40, 12 May 2017 (EDT)

==Mario Party: The Top 100==
I have watched a lot of videos on mario party the top 100 and there is no sign of her, she is unfortunately not playable in the game. could someone show proof of her in the game or create a paragraph on the mario party segment. I just want to see if shes in the game or not. Thank you.[[User:Mariobirdofan02|Mariobirdofan02]]

:Unfortunately it seems she only makes a small cameo in the game's Collection. Specifically, the Collection includes box art from previous ''Mario Party'' games, and so Birdo can be spotted on the box arts for 7 and 9. The same goes for Koopa Kid. (I haven't gotten far in the game, but this seems to be the only inclusion of her.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 23:37, 11 November 2017 (EST)

== Birdo is a transgirl ==

it's really not that hard to figure out.
{{unsigned|Copycatt}}

== Quotes ==
I've noticed that the quotes section for birdo is increasing  and there are loads of other games where she has dialogue in. Should we maybe start up a quotes page for birdo, a lot of other characters have a quotes page so why don't we start up one for birdo? her page could use more expanding [[User:Mariobirdofan02|Mariobirdofan02]]

== This Birdo's page miss all informations about her playable appearance in Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged. ==

This Birdo's page miss all informations about her playable appearance in Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged. The reference about these 2 games are missing in the description and also in the "List of appeareance by date" section. Can you please autorise me to change it. I also have to change information in Dr. Mario World's "pre-release and unused content" section based on in-game data informations. {{unsigned|Ouimet}}
:To edit this page, you'd also need to be [[MarioWiki:Autoconfirmed users|autoconfirmed]], which means you need to make at least another eight edits, but that information does not go on this page as this one is about the character or singular appearances of the species- this information is already included in its proper place on the [[Birdo (species)]] page. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 09:39, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
::That all being said, though, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to merge the character and species pages outright, as they're in a wishy-washy place like [[Wiggler]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:10, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
:::Except Birdo as a character is always the pink one, and one hardly finds a lone pink Birdo in the audience. (As in, if there's an audience of Birdos, they're almost always the ''other'' colours.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 17:04, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
::::{{file link|Birdo Pink MSC.png|''cough''}}. You know how Nintendo's said that not all Yoshis and Toads with the species name are necessarily the same as each other? Same principle applies. Unlike those, however, Birdos haven't appeared in a relevant capacity as a singular character and species at the same time other than SMB2 (which is covered fairly equally on both pages regardless), negating any real benefit this doesn't but hypothetically ''could'' have. It's like what I said on Boom-Boom's talk page, it's all developer interpretation per game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:37, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
:::::Not just SMB2. ''Mario Kart Tour'' features both ''the'' pink Birdo and a light-blue Birdo as playable characters. Also, in ''Mario Super Sluggers'', a game where Birdo is playable, you can see variously-colored Birdos in cutscenes. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 17:41, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
::::::Problem with the MKT thing is that it's formatted in the exact same manner as the "costume" characters, indicating a similar view. MSS is admittedly a different situation, though given one of those is merely a background element, that hardly counts as a "relevant capacity" for the species any more than the multitude of Toadsworths and DKJrs in MKDD. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:02, March 29, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::It's not just that there are multiple different-coloured Birdos in the audience in ''Mario Superstar Baseball'', and ''Sluggers'', but they also make a point of having the only pink Birdo in the game be the playable ''captain''. Also, the fact that Birdo is specifically invited to [[Baseball Kingdom]] in the opening of ''Sluggers'' alongside Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Daisy, and...Red Toad, at least points to her being more developed as an individual - especially when you look at the cutscenes for the game and find that, again, the only pink Birdo is ''the'' Birdo. There's also the situation in ''Sochi 2014'', where "Team Birdo" could have consisted of four pink Birdos, but they chose to give each a different colour and put the pink one as the lead.
:::::::Basically, if this goes through, it could open up a whole other can of worms - which appearances should be on Yoshi's "individual" page and which should be on his "species" page, including appearances in ''NSMBW''? What about Toad, when we've seen instances of both Toads with matching spot and vest colours, as well as multiple Toads who look the same as "the" Toad? Then there's the ambiguity between Magikoopa and Kamek, and even the multiple Petey Piranhas of Daisy's Garden. I think our current logic for determining individuality is fine and works. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 02:31, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::The Yoshis and Toads have had plenty of relevance as both a character and a species. Birdo really hasn't. Most of the time when she appears, she's just kinda ''there''. While the MSB pages are an exception, it's not like the playable Wiggler in MK7 is ''the'' Wiggler from SM64, or from MPT, or from BiS, or from DT, or from PMSS, or from MLPJ. Also, while most cases are ambiguous, the SMRPG pretty much ''can't'' be the same as the SMB2 Birdo...and one source calls the MKW Birdo the same as the SMRPG one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:29, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, up until MSB, Birdo was basically portrayed as a sole pink individual. Then games such as MSB and MSS include high proportions of Birdos in the audience, all of them ''not'' pink. While there are only a few of these games where the Birdo species are delineated from the main pink Birdo, including in ''Sochi 2014'', I think it's upon us to ''include'' these rather than strike these out as the exception. The difference with Wiggler is we have several instances of seeing multiple Wigglers at the same time, indicating their presence as a species. Pink Birdo stands out as an individual in almost all of her appearances. And if we're taking into account RPGs as some kind of "continuity", I have to bring up that classic trivia point that someone kept bringing back about Petey Piranha - that Petey Piranha existed in the past and is therefore much older than the Mario bros. It's gone now, precisely because the exact continuity in the RPGs doesn't really matter - supporting characters can be used to play a certain role in the story, especially as a boss, so Birdo being a "newborn" isn't exactly relevant. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 18:06, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::Except in early spinoff media, where Birdos were only a primarily pink species. Also, again, the audience thing really isn't that relevant due to Waluigi Stadium's usage of characters en masse. Birdos are also in MKW's audience. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:27, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::The difference with the audience is that while Waluigi Stadium's audience just used repeated spritework to fill in the distant background of the stage, the Birdos appear in audience scenes in CG cutscenes for the MSB and MSS. They weren't just "lazy" copy-paste work, they were specifically added as audience members. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 01:07, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::::In cutscenes. In the game itself, I can guarantee they use textures if they appear at all. 'sides, said game also had Monty Moles using their SMW design in crowds but the SM64DS design when playable. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:49, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Seems like maybe MSB borrowed models from Mario Power Tennis, which definitely uses SMW Monty Moles, and also several Birdos in the game's intro movie. Notably, a blue one points out Bowser's blimp in the sky. What's also notable is that I don't think a single pink Birdo is seen in the entire game - not in those audience scenes, not even the one who is brought out to kiss Bowser in his trophy celebration. They're definitely singling out ''the'' pink Birdo. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 18:52, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Except for when they aren't, which is an inconsistency that breaks this a bit. Remember how for a long while this wiki claimed the character Toad could be told apart from the species by a combination of red spots and blue vest, with the amount of games in which that's actually a valid differentiator being countable on one hand? Also, until we merged all the Yoshi colors, we had "Yoshi" split from "Green Yoshi," and aside from a very small amount of appearances (namely Paper Mario ones), any generic green Yoshi is assumed to be "the" Yoshi. Now, personally, I believe that therefore this article should be written more of as an abstract concept of Birdo in general, rather than a "either character or species" approach, as design and development history on that front are intertwined. <s>Also, might as well bring up the two pink Birdos in Mario Chess.</s> [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:13, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::If we're going to change the standards of how we decide to write character articles, then there's going to be a lot to be done not just on Birdo's page. For one, Birdo as a character can no longer exist except in certain situations, but each of those would be within one game anyhow. But then that begs the question for situations like [[Flutter]] and [[Flutter (character)|Flutter (Mario Party Advance)]], is that Flutter simply a character because no other Flutter appears in the game? That Flutter has some kind of story related to her? Or is it because this Flutter has a, uh, name? If I recall correctly, that info used to be on the Flutter species page, but was moved because she was deemed a "character". So, if Birdo is moved to be written as an "abstract concept" of Birdo, we're going to have to re-define where the line is drawn for certain characters and species. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 00:32, April 1, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::I believe the MPA ones have been severely mishandled, under the fallacy that they're in the same situation as Pengwen or Goombetty. They aren't, because they're simply one iteration of a development team's interpretation of a concept. This is especially the case for the Klepto in that game, since the original Klepto was an individual too. Another good example is whether Boom Boom is a character or a species; for NSMBU, the two regional English sources couldn't agree, and he's certainly an "individual" sometimes and a species at other times, and additionally he wasn't in SPM while Pom Pom (a definite individual of the species) was. As Mister Wu said on one of the Boom Boom talk pages, this is ultimately because in Japanese, the modifier for saying "[noun]" vs "a [noun]" isn't a thing, and without abstract thinking our western-grammar minds don't see that (though RareWare seemed to do the same with Klump and Krusha). On the subject of SPM, though, it shows that in certain cases (namely Kamek and Toad), they still are currently making distinctions....but Birdo hasn't had that in over 10 years. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:43, April 1, 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Don't worry, I understand Japanese and their lack of pluralisation. Anyhow, Birdo ''does'' appear in ''Super Mario Party'', and I think is the only pink Birdo in that game. I haven't really progressed in that game to say for certain, though, and have only seen her starting dialogue where she talks about "such and such happening in previous games", but that "she wasn't actually there". This could go either way as indication that this is not the individual Birdo from past ''Mario Party'' games, or that she hasn't been playable in all of them. Regardless, would you agree that if we were to move to writing the Birdo page as an "abstract concept", that this issue would move beyond one of just Birdo and towards the Wiki's definition of a "character"? [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 20:33, April 1, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::We have quite a few cases of characters bearing the name of the species/group and having the standard appearance of that species/group. I'm starting to think that for Nintendo the question of whether that Birdo is recurring isn't even there. It's not that she's not the same, she might very well be the same Birdo all the times, it's just that for Nintendo this doesn't seem to be relevant at all. Another example? Since it was brought up in the discussion, [https://www.kadokawa.co.jp/product/321808000468/ this character book from Kadokawa and Gzbrain] is so recent that it cover  ''Super Mario Party'', it has the {{file link|MCDSZ Toad.png|Toad artwork from that game}} (and the one of Toadette, too). And it also mentions Magikoopa in the two pages about the recurring enemies in the Mario games (oddly not in the two pages about the Turtle Tribe, probably beacuse of a lack of space). You'd think they feature ''the'' Kamek, the one in ''Super Mario Party''. And yet, {{file link|MCDSZ Magikoopa.png|they feature the ''Kamek'' in ''Super Mario 3D World'' instead}}, complete with generic description of what the enemies does in most games - throwing magic and warping. If you had any doubts about the relevance of the existence of ''the'' Kamek in Japan after the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', this new book won't surely help you remove any of them (and also makes me question what is Kamek's Japanese dialogue in ''Super Mario Party''). Ultimately, this ''generic member of the group/species'' approach is something that might make sense in Japan (and is reflected in their use of the same term to refer to a generic individual, a specific individual and even multiple individuals), not really in the West. I don't think we'll be able to break this cultural barrier soon, at least the proposals attempts so far showed this. It's a grey area that looks like for now will stay as it is, I guess until we understand this really-unintuitive-for-us approach ourselves and find a way to convey the concept to a Western audience.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:01, April 1, 2020 (EDT)

I understand BBQ Turtle, but Birdo is playable in 26 games, not 24. The Birdo (species)'s page doesn't take care to list her playable appearance in the "List of appeareance by date"'s section cause there's not. So, there is a problem, in one page, we can't count the good numbers of appearance. We can't know she is playable in these 2 games, cause no information refer to her Birdo (species)'s page and even if we go on that page, the informations aren't even listed. On one page, we miss some informations about her to made a complete page and on the other, we don't even list things so we aren't able to list the number of her appearance without read all to be sure how many time she is playable in general and as a specie character. That was said, if the community can't cooperate and make a complete page about a character, because some people got a bad opinion of that character, that site is distorted. We are not supposed to put subjective opinion here. We can object, she is not relevant (1), she is just a minion (2), she is not like Toad and Yoshi (3), she make appearance in stage (4), but all of these reason doesn't work.

She is relevant since 1988 (1987 depending if we count YK:DDP), she is a character/minion like Yoshi can be, but more relevant than Toad. She is more relevant than Toad being playable in Mario Tennis 64 (2000) (which Toad isn't), having is own objet in Mario Kart : Double Dash!! (2003) (Toad object is not unique. Sharing it with Toadette), she is playable in Mario Golf : Toadstool Tour (2003) (which Toad isn't), named Team Captain in Mario Superstar Baseball (2005)(which not a minion is) like  Doc von Schmeltwick mention, she is playable in Mario Hoops 3-on-3 (2006) (which Toad isn't), she is named Team Captain again in Mario Super Sluggers (2008) (which not a minion is again), she is playable in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (2016) (which Toad isn't), she is a Captain again in Mario Sports Superstars (2017) (which not a minion is again), in Super Mario Party (2018) the principle of having 10 Good and 10 Bad Characters made usual character being cuted like Birdo (that's normal, they can't put all the characters), but she was previously full modeled at one point she could be playable too like her full design prove it. She's is more playable than Toad itself, she was named 3 Times Captain considering not a single minion is and actually in Dr. Mario World, she is not place at the assistant role like all these minion, making her a eventual Doctors (Captain) like the rest of the Koopalings are due to be too (we will know in the future, based on the 30 march 2020). She is not consider more as a specie in her early Mario Spin-Off at all, all her latest appearance : Mario Party 9 (2012), Mario Golf : World Tour (2014), Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (2016) in the 3DS Version, Mario Sports Superstars (2017), Mario Tennis Aces (2018) and Mario Kart Tour (2019). The only exception to that is in the Wii Version, back to 2016 in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games. To finish and answer to the fourth reason, Toad appear more in Stages than Birdos.

Like Daisy and Waluigi, Birdo became easily a Icon since Mario Tennis 64 (2000), but more importantly, LGBTQIA+ start identifying this character as the first Trans Character of the Video Games Industry Ever Made. I think we can play a important role by, at least recognize what she did to give her, the visibility the character should got, not more, but not less. People from minority want to identify theirselves to this character and sometimes take facts about that characters, it's not a problem. If she is playable in 26 games and not 24, we just should mention she did it in 26.

If you still got doubt about it BBQ Turttle, I got a solution, why not just add the appropriate facts about it on her page, cause actually, we don't even talk she is represent as a Birdo in Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged and we don't even refer to her Birdo (specie)'s page and add these informations in "List of appeareance by date" ***BY MENTION THAN*** she is playable as a Birdos members, not as a singular one. That's it, so the list will be complete AND we will be able to see she doesn't have the same exact appearance than her other games. - [[User:Ouimet|Ouimet]] 22:05, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
:If you want to identify as an egg-shooting, lovey-dovey, dragon-thing, then you do you. But what we have on the gender of Birdo is really all there is to say. I'm not sure what more you want us to add, unless you have additional information of characters being confused on how to address Birdo. We shouldn't really upsale the gender thing, as that isn't really relevant to 98% of game information. It'd be like saying "Mario is a male human in ''Super Mario Bros.''" It doesn't really work right.
:This page is based on the character, not the species, so ''Strikers'' wouldn't count. It's not like Yoshi's role. That information is on the [[Birdo (species)]] page. But if you have more information on the singular appearances of a Birdo, you are welcome to tell us, or wait until you are autoconfirmed to add it yourself. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 23:46, March 30, 2020 (EDT)

But I don't care about identify myself!?! I just talk for other, I'm not even a member of LGBTQIA+, I'm just talking for them here. I don't need to be a black person or a woman to defend them!?! Can we just stop talking about gender and sexual orientation, I'm just a heterosexual men, that's it. Get over it. That point you are talking about is really out of topic. I talked about Birdo's Facts that are not related on that page, so people that want to refer to that page can't do it properly (LGBTQUIA+ is just an example, it can be about any other community).

The subject is, first, even if she is playable as her specie role, we have to refer to that page. This page don't even mention that this subject is findable on another page. A lot of people including me, didn't know where to search information about her for Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged. On one page, we miss some informations about her to made a complete page and on the other, we don't even list things so we aren't able to list the number of her appearance without read all to be sure how many time she is playable in general and as a specie character.

This page list her skins appearance in Minecraft when we don't even know if it's the skin of Birdo as a singular character or as a specie one. You literally list skin that aren't confirmed to be "the official Birdo" like any of her other appearance, but you don't count Birdo when she appear as the Pink One in both games, exactly like in Mario Kart Tour. She is playable in Pink in Mario Kart Tour, but also in Light Blue, so who knows if she's the right Birdo? The fact we omit this information is completely arbitrary. This page can't be complete without mention, at least, she is playable in these games. We still can mention, not only the Pink One Birdo is playable, but also other colours.

- [[User:Ouimet|Ouimet]] 00:52, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
:uh okay moving on then
:There is a link to the species page at the top of the article readers can use to find information. Sure, there's no real link that leads directly to the ''Strikers'' information because the page is meant to be about the single appearances of the character, where only one appears as a playable character, an enemy, or some side thing (like ''Mario Kart Double Dash'', ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', and ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' respectively). Everything else gets put on the species page, where the role is fulfilled by multiple Birdos. The ''Mario Kart Tour'' information was perfectly solid up until they added more colors, so it... kind of fits in both areas? idk, that can probably be discussed further. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 01:02, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

And what about the Minecraft skin than aren't Birdos? Do you have a page for them, cause they aren't and we don't have any confirmation it's about that Pink One. Same for Mario Kart Tour, you can play multiples Pink and Light Blue Birdos. If you are coherent with what you say, you have to change that. Otherwise, it's arbitrary.

Also what about Yoshi, The Singular Yoshi section talk about all his appearance with different colour in Mario Tennis, in Mario Kart, in Super Smash Bros. All the Singular Yoshi page is about Yoshi in general and regroup both, the Singular and Multi Yoshis informations. It's even very problematic if you apply what you say to Toad, sometimes the Singular Toad got red hat and a blue best, sometimes the singular one is all in red, sometimes all in blue, but the problem is solves by making a regroup all these information in the general Toad page. We should do the same for every characters, including Birdo. The Birdo page collapse under this arbitrary rule than you apply here, but not on Yoshi and Toad's Singular Pages. The other pages of Yoshi and Toad say explicitly the difference between the singular one and their specie ones, so we have to do the same here or they have to retire all these reference like this page.

We have to adapt that page like any other to be coherent, otherwise we have to clear any specie appearance of all the other page like Toad, Yoshi, Luma, etc. If I talk about it, it's not because I like Birdo, it's because that site is supposed to be coherent and isn't. I'm here to doing my job like you and help you to correct errors.

- Ouimet 1:32, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding all this big discussion about that one subject relate to other smaller ones, I think we are due to discuss about that big problem this page have with others and take a big decision about this page relate to each other pages we made. A page shouldn't not reform only, cause it represent a lot of work. If things are wrong, they need to be corrected as soon as possible.

- Ouimet 1:38, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
:I get it, I get it. The species page is looking for a rewrite, so perhaps the main article could use one, too. Things get a little messy when dealing with a specific character and then their general species. It is actually kind of arbitrary, because Nintendo doesn't make the clear-cut line of what makes a specific member of a species stand on its own, we do it for readability and keeping information coherent so it doesn't look like we're talking about multiple subjects on the same page.
:We don't have individual pages for ''Minecraft'' skins, to my knowledge.
:Yoshis and Toads tend to have differences between the main character and the species, whereas Birdo is not as developed of a character to really have any differences, aside from ''Super Mario Bros. 2''. This makes things even more difficult.
:There's no jobs here, the only one getting paid is Porplemontage because he runs the site, heh. It's all volunteer work, motivated by our interest in the series and want to work together in a community. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 01:46, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

I agree with very almost all you said, it's very difficult to work on these types of characters, cause Nintendo don't really notice we have to know that to classify information. I don't think that page will be vaporous by just mentioning Super Mario Striker and Mario Striker Charged information due to the fact there is not a lot of things to say about it. However, the advantage by made this little reform on that page will be to being able to count the total number of Birdo appearance and being able to count the total number of Birdo's playable appearance. Take note that if I correct the Birdo's page, I will personally make sure to indicate Birdo was playable, as a specie character (to not confuse anybody), in these 2 games. Due to Mario Kart Tour very unclear situation, we are better to based ourselves on what we did for Green Yoshi and Red Yoshi for that game and mention to the description for the reader that this situation made unclear is that Pink Birdo is the singular one. So, we solves the problem of debating Birdo's Mario Kart Tour appearance here and give to the readers the option of thinking about that by theirselves.

For Minecraft, I think we can conserve these information here to complete the full file of Birdo's data on that General Birdo Page like we did with other character too.

As I see, I'm not alone, we are a lot to think Mario Superstar Baseball (2005), like  Doc von Schmeltwick mention, Mario Super Sluggers (2008) and Mario Sports Superstars (2017) are the 3 proofs existing that it exist a Singular and Relevant Birdo One, cause she was named Captain in these 3 games and there is no slot dedicated to minions in the Captain Section. With Dr. Mario World, there is a risk in 2020 we got a 4th eventual proof of that, cause they clearly separate Doctors from Assistants. Yoshi and Toad of Doctors Side, Goomba and Koopa Troopa on the other. I agree, she is not used for the Main Mario Games as Toads or Yoshis (of course), but for Nintendo, they consider her enough important in Mario Spin-Off to classify her with the Big Superstars like Luigi and Peach characters.

Excuse me on that one, by using the "job" word, I didn't want to point on these remunerate jobs, but on the works in general. You are right.

So, tell me, do we will find someone to make that change, do you will make it or do we wait I'm getting official to make it. Again, if I do, make sure I won't write other things than Birdo as a specie, was playable in Super Mario Striker and Mario Striker Charged (I will explain fastly her features too) and I will list it to the "List of appeareance by date"'s section by mentionning Birdo is playable as a member of her specie. I can also mention than it's unclear for Mario Kart Tour's if the Pink Birdo is playable as a singular or as a specie one, like for Yoshi too, but I won't touch her short description in "List of appeareance by date"'s section, except if someone tell me to do it.

Finally, thanks for your understanding.
- Ouimet 3:07, March 31, 2020 (EDT)

==Ostro as original name==
Was this possibly the original name of the enemy in [[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]] ? That might explain why the name keeps recurring.

I saw [[:File:Ostro and Mouser.jpg]] today, was posted 11 Feb 2021 at https://twitter.com/vgartandtidbits/status/1359843133836718085

Not sure of original source but it being Japanese text seems interesting since DDP was not SMB2 in Japan...

...or wait no, it seems it might have been "Catherine" ? Still curious if we could get a scan/translation of what the DDP manual originally said.

I've seen descriptions it says something similar to "boy who thinks a girl" like in SMB2 but would like to see the original text.

Like for example did it have anything along the lines of "Birdo, wants to be called Birdetta" or just "Catherine" as the sole name? [[User:Tyciol|ty]] ([[User talk:Tyciol|talk]]) 13:55, February 16, 2022 (EST)
:The name was just mixed up with an enemy called [[Ostro]] in the credits. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:03, February 16, 2022 (EST)
::[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clv/manuals/en/pdf/CLV-P-NAADE.pdf Early editions of the manual] had them right, but [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_NES/Manual/formated/Super_Mario_Bros._2_-_1986_-_Nintendo.pdf later editions] "corrected" it to how it was in the credits. Note the Beezo difference as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:39, February 16, 2022 (EST)
:::For some reason, both of those links send me to a completely blank page, even though the url is still as it should be in the tab.  {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:04, February 16, 2022 (EST)

== Split Birdo and Shelly ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|4-1|split}}
Birdo is an egg-shooting dinosaur. Shelly is a giant egg what contains Birdo in a single game. Regardless, not actually the same subject, and as such should be split.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 24, 2022, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Maybe not much had been found to add about Shelly, but if this can remedied, a separate page can be appropriate.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Blinker}} Doesn't seem more deserving of an article than, say, [[Hoohooros|Pillar]]. It's a targetable "thing".

====Comments====
Page 102 of the Shogakukan guide labels Eggbert as 「タマタマ（キャサリンの<span class="explain" title="たまご">卵</span>）」(Uneggspected (Catherine's Egg)) and Shelly as 「キャサリンの<span class="explain" title="たまご">卵</span>の<span class="explain" title="から">殻</span>」(Catherine's Eggshell) - so I wonder, could either one work under "Birdo's Egg" instead? The Shogakukan guide seems to use a handful of alternate, potentially early names; for example, 「にせクッパ」(Fake Koopa) is listed as 「コピークッパ」(Copy Koopa) on page 100. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:43, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, now that I think about it, how about including an option to merge it with the Birdo's Egg article as well? [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 18:17, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
::Think it's a bit late in the process for that now, but it'll be easier to do that down the line when these are split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:10, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

==Birdo's Vehicle Combo in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe==
Just letting you guys know that Birdo uses the Mach 8 kart with Slim tires and the Super Glider in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. I can't edit the page to include this info though because it's protected, so can someone add it for me? Thanks. [[User:Bubbabyte|Bubbabyte]] ([[User talk:Bubbabyte|talk]]) 9:23, March 8, 2022 (EDT)

==Birdo and her species==
I think the character, Birdo and her species should have seperate pages of their own like Yoshi and Toad to distinguish them from their species since they represents them.

If you agree or disagree pls do leave a reply here.

October 12, 2023 
[[User:SuperBallBro|SuperBallBro]]
:They were split before, but got merged because of [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|this proposal]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 07:08, October 12, 2023 (EDT)

== In the Superstar Saga section it should be mention that was the last game to feature Birdo as an enemy, not counting remakes ==

I had tried to had this exact line “Not counting remakes, this game marks the last time Birdo appears as an enemy” to the Superstar Saga page but I was told I had to take it here in order to get it added, so if somebody could please add that to the page in the Superstar Saga section I would very much appreciate it. time [[Special:Contributions/35.137.237.68|35.137.237.68]] 10:56 November 20 2023 (EDT)
:Actually, She is fought in the Bowser's Minions campaign as well, is is exclusive to the remake, so the point actually isn't that notable since the remake is still fairly recent. [[User:Sdman213|Sdman213]] ([[User talk:Sdman213|talk]]) 00:23, November 21, 2023 (EST)
::Well personally I disagree, since well that’s just a different mode for the game that is a remake but I understand I can’t change your mind there, just thought I would respond since I have not responded to this statement yet [[Special:Contributions/35.137.237.68|35.137.237.68]] 10:56 November 20 2023 (EDT)

== Super Mario Bros. Super Show "The Bird! The Bird!" ==
Should this episode be added to Birdo's appearances in the Super Show? It's not listed despite prominently featuring two Birdo characters. I'd add it myself, but I'm not sure if there's some kind of deeper reason it's not listed here.--[[User:Nintenboi1|Nintenboi1]] ([[User talk:Nintenboi1|talk]]) 19:14, November 29, 2023 (EST)
:Proooooobably focusing on generic unnamed Birdos, but not sure if that's a good reason (especially since some of the listed ones are '''NOT''' generic, merely unnamed). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:26, November 29, 2023 (EST)

== Split Birdo and Birdo (species) ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|3-9|keep merged}}

I see no compelling reason why Birdo was merged with Birdo (species) in the [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|this proposal]] that instituted the merge.  We have everything from mainline staples like [[Yoshi (species)]], [[Toad (species)]], [[Koopa (species)]], and [[Star (species)]] to lesser known and less distinguished pages like [[Owl (species)]]. With nearly 50 different appearances in ''Mario'' games as a standalone character rather than just represented as a species, I’d like to recognize Birdo as the icon that she is rather than as simply a modge podge of random, indistinguishable dinosaurs.  

She is featured as an individual character with the same frequency as Yoshi or Toad. Another, better comparable example is the distinction between [[Lakitu]] and [[Lakitu (Mario Kart referee)]].  That Lakitu is distinguishable from the regular Lakitus enough to be featured on his own, standalone page, and so is the beloved Birdo. Yes, Kart racers like the Koopa, Lakitu, Boo, etc. are featured in the page for their species, but Birdo is far more than just a Kart racer.  With appearances as an individual character in everything from the ''Mario Golf'' series, ''Mario Tennis'' series, ''Mario Party'' series, ''Mario & Luigi'' series, ''Paper Mario'' series, ''Mario Baseball'' series, ''Mario & Sonic'' series, and one-offs like ''Captain Rainbow'' and ''Mario Hoops 3-on-3'', it's clear that she's every much an individual as Yoshi or Toad.

When [[Draggadon]], [[Koopa Kid]], and [[Dorrie]] (referenced in the merge proposal) become as iconic as Birdo and are featured in nearly 50 games as an individual character rather than just a random member of a larger species, then we can cite them as similar examples. Until then, while they remain largely indistinguishable from one another and lack a developed personality, like the singular Birdo character, I cannot see the comparison between them and Birdo as valid.

Additionally, having the two pages merged has created considerable confusion on this talk page.

'''Proposer''': {{User|DrBaskerville}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT

=== Support: Split Birdo and Birdo (species) ===
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SuperBallBro}} Per proposal for my point in this section I written. [https://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:Birdo#Birdo_key_facts_and_behaviors]
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal. Sure, the Birdo (species) article may be short, but I’m sure there are shorter articles on this wiki.

=== Oppose: Keep merged ===
#{{User|Hewer}} Per the original proposal. It's not that there's too little to say about the Birdo character, it's that there's too little to say about the Birdo species, and I don't know of any official distinction given between the two subjects besides there being multiple of the species, which made the old split basically fan speculation. Splitting the same subject based on whether there's multiple or not in any given game when the devs don't even seem to care seems a bit daft, and is not something we do for other species like Koopa Troopa or Shy Guy where there'll sometimes be playable ones distinct from non-playable ones, or the playable one will be the only instance of the character to appear in a game. This is why the opening of the Birdo article uses this particular wording: "While Birdo is often portrayed as an individual character, there have also been many appearances of multiple Birdos that come in different colors and that sometimes have different characteristics." It's a whimsical and fantastical franchise that often doesn't care about making narrative sense, so I feel like there can be multiple of a character without us having to invent explanations about a distinct species and split pages over it (the [[Talk:Boom Boom (species)#Merge this with Boom Boom|former Boom Boom split]] having been the most egregious example of this). The merge isn't supposed to devalue the Birdo character's importance or anything, not sure why you thought that. Yoshi, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa I think have better cases to stay split given more of a distinction is sometimes made, and the "Koopa (species)", "Owl (species)", and "Star (species)" pages are not relevant, they're not really part of a species/character split in the same vein.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} I'm not denying the fact that there is a species that Birdo also belongs in and that the games make an obvious distinction of that fact. My biggest question is how do you try to talk about while not also tying back to ''the'' Birdo? It's a bit weird and I'm probably hypocrite because we could argue for mering Toad and Yoshi, but we really don't know too much about what Birdo's species actually is. The Once and Only Once rule is an example of why this gets difficult. Also, Toads in the Japanese scripts did have unique names at one point, before they used the names that the mushroom retainers had.
#{{User|Biggestman}} Per all. Also in recent times Nintendo seem to be dropping Birdo being a whole species anyways
#{{User|MarioComix}} Looking just [[Talk:Birdo#This_Birdo.27s_page_miss_all_informations_about_her_playable_appearance_in_Super_Mario_Strikers_and_Mario_Strikers_Charged.|above]], we can see one of the fatal pitfalls of having both Birdo and Birdo (species) as a page. By distinguishing them, people trying to find "Birdo in Mario Strikers" can't find this info on the Birdo page and instead have to find the species page. After all, Birdo as a character doesn't appear in ''Strikers'' so wouldn't have any reference to ''Strikers'' on her own page. As much as I agree that Birdo is a prominent standalone character, it's also valid to keep a singular page for "Birdo as a character and species".
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.

=== Comments ===
Sorry, but as Hewer says, there's just not enough to say about the Birdo species considering that she's like Yoshi in that there can be an individual character or multiple playable species. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
:I disagree based on all that was contained on the [https://web.archive.org/web/20220312003817/https://www.mariowiki.com/Birdo_(species) original split page]. Hopefully @Hewer will see this, too.  This page will need some cleaning up if we revive it, chiefly removing references to Birdo as a character, but there's ample examples of members of the Birdo species playing roles in media outside of the main Birdo character. Even if there wasn't, there's a difference between [[Special:ShortPages]] and [[:Category:Stubs]]. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 15:41, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
::I went over my problems with that article back in my 2021 merge proposal. To quote myself: "Some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Birdo is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario Bros. 2 information [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|being on both pages]] (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Birdos are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Birdo is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Birdos are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Birdos of different colours treated like normal Birdo, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Birdo article." Compare the [[Shy Guy]] article, which talks about a playable character, other playable Shy Guys of different colours, and NPC Shy Guys like enemies and audience members, all in a single article without issue. Why shouldn't Birdo be the same? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:19, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::I understand your position, and I don't think its wrong; I just don't agree with it.  I would argue that Birdo is a more established character than most other characters in the series.  Being an established character at all necessitates having a page, which is something we agree on.  Where we diverge is the belief that Birdo's species is synyonopous with Birdo as a character. This leads me to two questions. First, why should Yoshi and Toad be split between species and character? What notable differences are there between the characters and the species in those cases that necessitates separate pages?  Secondly, what is the difference between your argument on Birdo compared to, for example, merging [[Crate guy]] and all other minor Piantas into the main [[Pianta]] article? Crate guy is a specific member of the Pianta species, just as Birdo is a specific member of the Birdo species. Is the only difference that she shares a name with her species? If that's the answer, then what about the other names Birdo uses, like Catherine or Birdetta, that differentiate between her and other Birdos? We have multiple members of the Birdo species, which have their own pages ([[Cheepy]], [[Giant Birdo]], [[Thunderbirdo]]). If we had as many Birdo characters as we do Pianta characters, would the species then deserve its own page? {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:08, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::Yoshi and Toad are at least officially treated as having a level of distinction that Birdo doesn't really have. For instance, "[[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Yoshi's Crafted World|There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis: red, pink, blue, yellow, and more.]]" I see Birdo less as a member of a Birdo species and more as a character of flexible plurality like Boom Boom. Crate guy I don't think is comparable since he's a particular individual Pianta with a distinct name and role ("Catherine" is just the Japanese name for Birdo, and "Birdetta" is, as far as I can tell, a one-off alternate name from a single guidebook from three and a half decades ago). And I don't think the other individual Birdo characters from the Super Show change anything either, having distinct members generally doesn't really affect whether a species should get an article in my opinion. The [[Three Shadows]] appear to all be of a single species, but despite having multiple distinct members, [[Talk:Demon#Reinstate this page as an article for the Shadow Queen and Shadow Siren's species|this species was denied an article]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:48, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I agree that Yoshi and Toad have a high level of distinction, but I believe Birdo does as well.  For example, she's featured on the [[:File:MK8-WomenofRacing1.png]] alongside Daisy and Peach, is officially speculated to be Yoshi's girlfriend in [[Birdo#Relationship_with_Yoshi]] (MK:DD), and has an important role in video game history as one, if not ''the'', first [https://newnormative.com/2017/10/26/lgbtqia-representation-in-gaming-birdo/ trans character in a video game]. These are all references to the individual Birdo, not the Birdo species. I think Birdo is not only distinct as a Mario character but distinct in the video game industry as a whole.  She's identifiable, perhaps not by name, by many who would have no idea who most of the other Mario characters are, and I would feel comfortable saying the average person doesn't realize she shares the name as her species.  The fact that she as an individual has established relationships with people like Yoshi, Mario, Popple, etc. suggests enough notoriety to be distinguished from every other Birdo, regardless of the notoriety of the Birdo species as a whole. I just find it diminutive of her presence and prominence in the series to not afford her independent coverage.
:::::<br>To your points about Crate guy, ("he's a particular individual Pianta with a distinct name and role"), I don't see how the same is not true for Birdo?  Birdo absolutely exists as an individual, a point I don't think you refute; the only difference being Birdo, who has, regardless of source or how long ago it was, been referred to by multiple names and nicknames, including Birdie, which I forgot to mention.  Besides, "crate guy" is hardly a name; its just an easy way to identify him. My overall point in referencing him is to illustrate that there other examples of characters, considerably more minor than Birdo, having independent articles rather than articles that just include information about the individual on a page that otherwise focuses on the species. I think we need a unified approach to covering individuals vs. species, and, other than Birdo, I think the wiki does a good job balancing that. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 20:30, June 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::I feel like you're still missing my main point, that I disagree there is a Birdo individual who is a member of the Birdo species, so much as a Birdo character who there can sometimes be multiple of. Again, it's a franchise that doesn't often care about making narrative sense, it's not our job to invent in-universe explanations for the somewhat inconsistent depictions. Bringing up recognisability is a strange point as I feel like most people seeing a Birdo would assume it's "the Birdo character". Heck, even the other colours of Birdo could be argued as potentially the same character - in Mario Kart Tour and 8 Deluxe, they use names like "Birdo (Yellow)", matching the naming of variants like "Mario (Musician)", whereas Yoshi and even Shy Guy colours instead use names like "Yellow Yoshi". It's much more helpful to just forgo the speculation and keep all the Birdo information on a single page so people can find it, be it a character or a species, especially in cases like SMB2 where we aren't even sure. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:06, June 29, 2024 (EDT)

One of the things I repeatedly brought up during the initial merge: "What about Wiggler?" Wiggler has been treated as a singular character almost as often as a species at this point and generally has a pretty consistent characterization, yet has never been split. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:17, July 4, 2024 (EDT)

== Birdo key facts and behaviors ==

I don't think Birdo is one character, but her species is generally uncommon or even rare. Why we there's usually one birdo in each level in SMB2. They as guards or wild Birdos that are soiltary  sometimes Birdos come together. 

I think there's both a male and female Birdos. I don't believe that Birdo is transgender but rather a species' different individuals which has many distinct Birdos. Birdo is indeed a species that even has a subspecies called the Birdaroo and others like Robobirdo, Thunder Birdo etc.

Now we should know that Birdo is part a species with the same name just like [[Yoshi]] and [[Toad]].

[[User:SuperBallBro]] July 4, 2024 12:08 am (EST)

== Are Thunderbirdos a subspecies or a notable member. ==

I think the Thunderbirdo is a subspecies of Birdo rather than a notable member. I believe they had more members than one larger birdo at least what I recall. The page in the Thunderbirdo calls it a variant of a birdo. {{User|SuperBallBro}} 7:29 p.m. / 19:29 (EST)

== Resplit Birdo (species) ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|13-6-16|do not split}}

I have 15 rebuttals to arguments I've seen from other users against splitting [[Birdo]] and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}.


* "Other species that appear as individual 'characters' in spinoffs aren't given a split between the two like [[Boom-Boom]] (and {{fake link|Boom-Boom (species)}})". My response: That's irrelevant to this debate. Those species lack a defined, unique character that is part of them like I will show is the case with Birdo and Birdo (species).


*"If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon... They might be businessman in one [cartoon] or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games". - Miyamoto My response: This is a complete non-argument. It could be used to argue for the merges of [[Yoshi]] and [[Yoshi (species)]] as well as [[Toad]] and [[Toad (species)]], but I have yet to see this quote used in favor of merging those subjects.


*"Toad has more reason to split the two named subjects than Birdo". My response: Most toads have the exact same personality, appearance, voice, and coloration of '''THE''' Toad. So I'd have to disagree. There's also no objective basis on which the reasoning has to stand.


*"People will have to navigate to Birdo (species) to find Birdo's appearance(s) in the Mario Baseball games". My response: Not necessarily. Both Toad articles share Super Sluggers in their history section despite THE Toad not actually appearing in either of the games. A random "Red Toad" is considered to be THE [[Toad]] within the [[History of Toad#Mario Baseball series|History of Toad]]. The same thing done for the Toad subjects' history sections could be done for the Birdo subjects' history sections. A random "Pink Birdo" can be considered to be '''THE''' [[Birdo]] in Birdo's history section.


*"Any color of Birdo could be considered the character". My response: Not true. In advertisements and especially media where Birdo is portrayed as a unique character like the Mario RPGs and ''[[Captain Rainbow]]'', Birdo is pink.


*"The species page would be too short." My response: I looked at the [https://web.archive.org/web/20220312003817/https://www.mariowiki.com/Birdo_(species) original split page] for Birdo (species) and it's not really short. It may not be long but there are shorter species pages on this wiki. Notable examples of actually short species pages are [[Tokkuri Flower]] and [[Wigglevine]].


*"They lack a unique name". My response: This is a moot point. Yoshi and Toad do too and that's not a problem for them.


*"Not many people even know there's a difference between the character and the species". My response: This point is entirely moot. The wiki covers all Mario-related subjects and media regardless of the public's knowledge of them. This wiki would fail at its mission of documenting all Mario-related topics if we chose not to cover subjects on the basis on their obscurity.


*"What about Wiggler, Shy Guy, Ninji, etc". My response: Evidently, I don't believe those subjects to be separate from their species. Additionally, it's an irrelevant talking point to this conversation as I am specifically talking about Birdo, not just notable enemies who might have a unique characterization in certain games. While I believe there is merit to conversing over these species and whether or not any of them constitute articles for an individual character, I don't believe this talk page is the appropriate space to do so. I believe the appropriate spaces to do so would be on their own talk pages.


*"Birdo '''(the character)''' is never seen alongside other Birdos". My response: ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'' and ''[[BS Super Mario USA]]'' depict the three differently colored Birdos as separate characters from each other. Quoth the Super Mario Advance section, "Unlike later games, Birdo does not make honking-like sounds but has dialogue, portrayed by Jen Taylor. The pink, red, and green types each have increasingly lower-pitched voices. The other Birdos have different dialogue lines, and one of Green Birdo's lines ("I'm ready for you this time!" – Green Birdo) implies that she had been fought before." Green Birdo's line is a direct implication that the three same birdos are each refought. Note also this line from the BS Super Mario USA section, "Birdo had her first speaking role in BS Super Mario USA. Taking place sometime after Super Mario Bros. 2, the pink Birdo and her red and green friends, once again depicted as separate characters with different voices..." If the three birdos are "individual", then it stands to reason that "Pink Birdo" must be '''THE''' [[Birdo]] and given they appear in the same three games (Original SMB2, SMA, BS) as the other two birdos, this argument has no ground to stand on.


*"It's hard to know when it's the character or the species and this delves into speculative territory". My response: The same could be said of Toad and their species. Tangentially related to this point, there is confusion over whether Toad and [[Captain Toad]] are the same or separate characters.


*"Both of the pages would go over Birdo's appearances in ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2|SMB2]]'' and its ports and remakes". My response: Both of the Toad articles go over '''THE''' Toad's appearance in ''[[Super Mario Bros.|SMB1]]''. Additional point to be made, Birdo '''(the character)''''s article could include in her infobox: {{character infobox |first_appearance=''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' (retroactively) ([[List of games by date#1987|1987]], overall)<br>''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' ([[List of games by date#1988|1988]], ''Super Mario'' franchise) <br> [[Wario's Woods (Nintendo Entertainment System)|''Wario's Woods'' (Famicom/NES)]] (as a singular character) ([[List of games by date#1994|1994]])
}}












This would be very similar to what's done regarding '''THE''' [[Toad]]'s first appearance in his character infobox.


*"This is the same situation as with [[Boom-Boom]]. The character is synonymous with the species". My response: Not only do ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'' and ''[[BS Super Mario USA]]'' contradict this but so do the Mario RPGs and ''[[Captain Rainbow]]''. In Captain Rainbow, Birdo is portrayed as a unique character with her own wishes and goals like all the other islanders Nick has to help in the game. The Mario RPGs, notably ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|Super Mario RPG]]'', ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|Superstar Saga]]'', ''[[Mario & Luigi: Brothership|Brothership]]'', ''[[Paper Mario: Sticker Star|Sticker Star]]'', ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash|Color Splash]]'', and ''[[Paper Mario: The Origami King|Origami King]]'' all consistently portray Birdo as a unique and separate character from the species she comes from.


*"Birdos have no differences in portrayals character-wise, behavior-wise, or role-wise". My response: There are ''some'' small differences in portrayals between Birdos. The Red and Green Birdo have different enemy behavior than Birdo. Red Birdo spits eggs '''AND''' fireballs and Green Birdo '''ONLY''' spits fireballs. Each Birdo in ''[[BS Super Mario USA]]'' has a different VA. The Bows of Green and Red Birdos can be stolen and thrown but '''THE''' Birdo's cannot. '''THE''' Birdo doesn't drop a [[Crystal Ball]] in [[World 4-3 (Super Mario Bros. 2)|World 4-3]]. Red Birdo doesn't drop a Crystal Ball in [[World 7-2 (Super Mario Bros. 2)|World 7-2]] but does drop a [[Key]] in one of its two encounters in the level. The different Birdos have different lines of dialogue in ''[[Super Mario Advance]]''. In the ''Mario Baseball'' games, '''THE''' Birdo is the only playable Birdo. In terms of ''role'', when '''THE''' Birdo appears on her own, she is portrayed differently than other Birdos. Also in terms of ''role'' (in an instance where Birdo is among other Birdos), Red Birdo has the distinct ''role'' in ''SMB2'' in [[World 7-2 (Super Mario Bros. 2)|World 7-2]] of holding the key to a chamber with a [[Mask Gate]] and (in another instance where Birdo is among other Birdos) as previously mentioned '''THE''' Birdo is the ''only'' Birdo to have the ''role'' of playable character in the ''Mario Baseball'' games despite other Birdos appearing in cinematics and the audience. Further regarding the ''Mario Baseball'' games, '''THE''' Birdo is given an actual ''role'' in the "plot" via the two games' story modes and cinematics.


*"The split page was a terrible dumpster fire". My response: Yes, that was the case. That said, it doesn't matter how bad the split page was the first time because it '''can''' be improved.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Pizza Master}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT 

===Split [[Birdo]] and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}===
#{{User|Pizza Master}} Per.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We have [[Yoshi]] and [[Yoshi (species)]], we have [[Toad]] and [[Toad (species)]], and to be frank, we've never understood why exactly Birdo has to be some exception where both the individual and her species have to share an article. The only real reason we can think of is that there are less "unique" Birdos outside of Birdo (the character referred to by her species), but [[Cheepy|that's not]] [[Thunderbirdo|to say]] [[Giant Birdo|there's none]]--granted, all 3 come from the cartoons, so you could argue this as a case of "this was before the brand identity was fully settled", but given the fact they exist at all, in addition to the rampant appearances of Birdos as a species existing beyond Birdo herself in Sports games that are far more recent than these examples anyways, it's clear the idea that there are more Birdos has stuck around. And while we understand the concerns of "there's not much to Birdo's species that is unique from Birdo herself, so a split page would be fairly short", we have definitely split pages that resulted in far smaller articles before; article length should only be a concern if the end-result would be maybe a few sentences, which clearly wouldn't be the case.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} The Mario Party series, particularly ''[[Super Mario Party]]'' and ''[[Mario Party Superstars]]'', also treat her as an individual who has taken part in several previous events. I think it’s inaccurate to present this as anything but one recurring Birdo character among a species.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} I just personally don’t see a problem with treating Birdo the same as Yoshi or Toad. Per proposal.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
#{{User|Zootalo}} Per all.
#{{User|Kirby the Formling}} This is how Toad, Yoshi, and even Kamek/Magikoopa work, so why should Birdo be different? Per.
#{{User|GeneralDonitsky}} Per all.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per proposal. Let's see how this works out.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. Even if there might be more edge cases than others, this is consistent with Toad, Yoshi, etc
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Secondary opinion. Per all.

===Split [[Birdo]], {{fake link|Red Birdo}}, {{fake link|Green Birdo}}, and {{fake link|Birdo (species)}}===
#{{User|Pizza Master}} Because [[Super Mario Advance]] and [[BS Super Mario USA]] treat all 3 colors as separate from one another.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Preferred option, tbh.
#{{User|Rykitu}} I agree with FanOfYoshi
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Primary opinion. Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} this seems like a good idea too
#{{User|WingedBoomBoom}} I think this makes sense.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per the opposition of the previous proposal.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Per what I said before; {{color|purple|this situation is closer to Wiggler than Yoshi}}. Also, they ''are'' seen alongside each other, the crux here is they are not portrayed ''any'' differently from each other when they do. Toad, Yoshi, and Magikoopa at least ''sometimes'' get a level of distinction that Birdo just doesn't. Basically, there's no difference between "character" and "species," the devs just sometimes decide to put in more than one and give multiple colors. Sort of the inverse of how sometimes there's only one Wiggler, but splitting that would be nothing but foolish. I want to bring up the statement by Miyamoto about the characters being basically like actors in a cartoon series (he gave ''Popeye'' as an example), it is mostly about the ''role'' rather than any consistent lore. This is an example; whether the entity is singular or plural depends on what the creators need in that specific instance. The fact that the "species" page pre-merge was an utter trashpit of miscellaneous appearances arbitrarily put there when it's more organic to put them together and a lot more useful to not hide them on an alternative page is also important here.
#{{User|PopitTart}} Seems to me that Birdo is an individual that just bears different colors sometimes. Sometimes those different colors indicate an ability to shoot fireballs, but that is [[Fire Mario|nothing new]].
#{{User|Hewer}} [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|Per everything I've]] [[Talk:Birdo#Split Birdo and Birdo (species)|said before about this]]. The split was an awful speculative mess that I'd hate to return to. Birdo is Birdo, we [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|only need one article]] to cover what is essentially one concept. I strongly doubt this is a distinction that the games' developers care about. (Also I don't get why so many of the arguments are just "but Yoshi and Toad exist" when they are very much exceptions rather than the rule already, what with Wiggler, Boom Boom, Dorrie, Koopa Kid, Draggadon, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|the Mario Party Advance characters]]...)
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} The main thing is that Birdo is not treated any differently like the others are saying.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I do not think I would be opposed to individual bosses receiving their own articles, but the people who make ''Super Mario'' games have never had unique reverence for [[:File:Top100DefuseorLose.png|the concept of an "individual."]] Yoshis are not quite in the same situation.
#{{User|MarioComix}} Firstly, I believe there has been enough distinction between Birdo as a character and as a species, at least in their species debut in ''Mario Power Tennis'' (where Bowser almost gets kissed by a generic red Birdo as opposed to the obligatory pink Birdo, which serves no purpose other than to say "this is not the usual Birdo"), and this persisting across games shows a clear continuation of "Birdo as a species" compared to one-off instances of multiples of [[Donkey Kong Jr.]], [[Toadsworth]], [[Petey Piranha]], or [[King Bob-omb]], wherein they serve specific gameplay or minor cameo roles. But the main reason I support keeping it merged as one page for Birdo and her species as a whole is due to the same old pitfall [[#This_Birdo.27s_page_miss_all_informations_about_her_playable_appearance_in_Super_Mario_Strikers_and_Mario_Strikers_Charged.|as above]], where people looking for "Birdo in Mario Strikers" will come to character Birdo's page and be confused about the lack of information from the first two ''Strikers'' games. So for '''ease of use''', it's better to keep all of Birdo and Birdos' appearances on one page.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per MarioComix. two subjects can be separate and still share an article, if it results in a clearer reading experience. if you really really care about differentiating between Birdo the idea vs. Birdo the woman, you can do that in the article's body without splitting it.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I'd support splitting the SMB2 Birdo bosses individually, and I'd support covering other appearances of these color variants on the resultant pages [[Talk:White Shy Guy#Reverse the above proposal|in whatever manner the community decides it is done for the white and black Shy Guys]]. Outside of SMB2, non-pink Birdos barely have anything going for them collectively that warrant a separate page from Birdo. Yoshis may fulfill various [[Yoshi (species)#Super Mario World|gameplay]], [[Yoshi (species)#Club Nintendo|narrative]], and [[Yoshi (species)#Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time|speaking roles]] that set them apart from the green Yoshi. Birdos (plural) most often appear as mere duplicates of *the* pink Birdo, either acting exactly the same as her or being there just to fill in a non-speaking NPC role, and it really doesn't help how recent games follow a trend of referring to them using bracket identifiers like "Birdo (Red)". The only game I can think of that confers Birdo colors some crucial distinctions, gameplay-adjacent or not, is Mario Kart Tour, where each color Birdo is given a set of favored courses and (maybe) a special item--but that's a moot basis for a split, because that game effectively relies on giving each individual playable skin its own set of attributes distinct from the base character. To me, separating Birdo the character and Birdo the species would feel like singling out the Dry Bones character you play as in spin-offs, or [[Talk:Boom Boom (species)#Merge this with Boom Boom|extrapolating that Boom Boom is a species of its own]].
#{{User|Mario}} Probably worthwhile to check how [[Metal Mario]] is organized, which used to also try to split between character and powerup to rather confusing results, see [[Talk:Metal Mario]]. Currently, it's a much more straightforward page that focuses on Metal Mario as a more abstract concept without needing to try to distinguish between the ambiguous identities of powerup vs. character while leaving interpretation of what Metal Mario actually is up to the reader, not taking a stance, which is more in-spirit to how the developers use these character. I think that page is better for this. There was a similar case for Boom Boom as well. I wouldn't be opposed to a similar idea of Yoshi, Yoshis; Toad, Toads though the resulting pages are probably going to be huge. At least when a red-spotted Toad is there, there'll be less issue trying to sort it into a Toad species article or The Toad article or just both.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} There just isn't much going on here compared to Toad and Yoshi. Per oppo.
#{{User|SComic}} Per Doc Von Schmeltwick
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.

===Comments===
{{@|Super Mario RPG}} Did you even read my proposal reasoning or just oppose without looking?--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 22:30, February 3, 2025 (EST)
:Yes, I did. The previous proposal was not too long ago, and I'd prefer that namesake characters be merged with their species in general because a lot of it can come across as pick-and-choose, especially in games where more than one member of the same species is present. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 22:33, February 3, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Super Mario RPG}} Regardless of your preference, your vote should be based on whether you agree or disagree with the reasoning of the proposal. Assuming you are in disagreeance, what of the points I made do you disagree with out of curiosity? --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 22:37, February 3, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} There are ''some'' small differences in portrayals between Birdos. The Red and Green Birdo have different enemy behavior than Birdo. Red Birdo spits eggs '''AND''' fireballs and Green Birdo '''ONLY''' spits fireballs. Each Birdo in ''[[BS Super Mario USA]]'' has a different VA. The Bows of Green and Red Birdos can be stolen and thrown but '''THE''' Birdo's cannot. '''THE''' Birdo doesn't drop a [[Crystal Ball]] in [[World 4-3 (Super Mario Bros. 2)|World 4-3]]. Red Birdo doesn't drop a Crystal Ball in [[World 7-2 (Super Mario Bros. 2)|World 7-2]] but does drop a [[Key]] in one of its two encounters in the level. The different Birdos have different lines of dialogue in ''[[Super Mario Advance]]''. In the ''Mario Baseball'' games, '''THE''' Birdo is the only playable Birdo. In terms of ''role'', when '''THE''' Birdo appears on her own, she is portrayed differently than other Birdos. Also in terms of ''role'' (in an instance where Birdo is among other Birdos), Red Birdo has the distinct ''role'' in ''SMB2'' in [[World 7-2 (Super Mario Bros. 2)|World 7-2]] of holding the key to a chamber with a [[Mask Gate]] and (in another instance where Birdo is among other Birdos) as previously mentioned '''THE''' Birdo is the ''only'' Birdo to have the ''role'' of playable character in the ''Mario Baseball'' games despite other Birdos appearing in cinematics and the audience. Finally, it doesn't matter how bad the split page was the first time because it '''can''' be improved. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 23:26, February 3, 2025 (EST)
:This is all said under the assumption that all pink Birdos (and for that matter, ''only'' the pink Birdos) are "the" Birdo. I'd like to bring up the [[Mouser]]s that appeared in SMB2. In DDP, there are three colorations with three different amounts of health, implying three individuals, in SMB2 there are two (since one is replaced with Clawgrip), but for SMAS and SMA, there's only one coloration despite still being fought twice with differing amounts of health. This demonstrates the inconsistency with basing things off colorations, characterizations, and how often they appear. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:46, February 3, 2025 (EST)
::While we admittedly have far less stake in this conversation (ultimately, we just want consistency, which isn't really part of the main proposal), the ambiguity as to which of the pink Birdos are Birdo (the character), or if that's even a question that makes sense (given the situation with [[Mouser]] similarly having multi-colored variants fought throughout the game, despite there being only one Mouser character in future appearances that, like Birdo, only uses one of the colors) only makes us lean even more into "Birdo as a species should be treated separately as a concept from Birdo, the one we know is the character". Especially since, unlike Mouser, we have actually seen multiple of her species in the same room before. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:51, February 3, 2025 (EST)
:::What makes this different from Boom Boom or Wiggler. The "points" above don't really go into that adequately. Toad, Yoshi, and Magikoopa have ''large amounts'' of appearing as either/or or both at once with some significant amount of actual differences in role (no, "firing a different projectile" or "holding a key" does ''not'' count here, I mean role in the plot), so a separate history section is '''regrettably''' justifiable for those three, even though '''ideally''' they too would be merged. Not so much here. Splitting character/species articles is '''absolutely not something we should ''strive'' for''' for the reasons I outlined before, mainly the "interpretation of developers are fickle" part. They should be seen as a ''last resort''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:57, February 3, 2025 (EST)
::::When it comes to "what makes this different from Boom Boom or Wiggler?", it's sports games, mostly. To our awareness, there hasn't been a case of multiple Boom Booms appearing on something like the crowd in a ''Mario Kart'' track, or multiple of them in a Soccer/International Football team outside of exactly one case for Boom Boom specifically, but in both of those examples, multiple Birdos are not only present, but relatively common; Birdos appear in track audiences, Birdos are generic members of a Soccer/International Football team, Birdos of multiple colors on the race track thanks to ''Mario Kart Tour'' featuring an absolute deluge of alts for multicolored Birdos. The only instance of this with Boom Boom is in Strikers: Battle League, we ''think'', the information on the wiki isn't clear and we admittedly did not get that game; Wiggler has more legs to stand on (hah.), but his presence in games like ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' seems to be moreso of the "common enemy getting a roster slot" treatment, like Chain Chomp in ''Tennis Aces'' or Spike in ''Mario Party 10''. We would understand Birdo lacking a species article if we happened to live in a world where all the species articles were already merged (even though, frankly, we see even ''less'' reason to merge those to their respective character articles, precisely because in our opinion, those fickle intentions of the developers ''should'' be acknowledged in some way beyond clarifying "in this game, Yoshi is a species. in this game, Yoshi is a single character." in every section.), but as it stands, those are split, so the question is if we should split this one too; and personally, we think yes, just because we think Birdo makes sense to include in the cut-off point of what we give both a character article and a species article to. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 00:13, February 4, 2025 (EST)
[[File:Birdosoccer.png|thumb]]
:::::Funny you bring up sports games. Anyone who's looking for the entity seen to the right there will look under "Birdo," not scavenger hunt to some unnecessary obtuse "species" page. It makes sense to list all of "Birdo"s roles in the ''Strikers'' games in one section, even though (and heck, especially ''because'') the role is changed to singular in the third one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:20, February 4, 2025 (EST)
::::::We're gonna level with you; we pre-wrote most of this response because we felt like it should be said, but didn't want to edit the comment further, because. Goodness gracious, this talk page has been an utter ''minefield'' of edit conflicts. But ultimately, our stance boils down to this; we already, presently, have species splits for Characters that warrant a distinction between them as an individual, and their species as a separate concept. As it stands, Birdo's page currently is trying to describe two concepts, and that is not consistent with how we presently handle things.<br>The best way we can think of to analogize our thought process is, currently, Yoshi is article A, and Yoshi (species) is article B. The two are intrinsically linked, but are also split as they are about different aspects of the same overall thing. Birdo is article AB. And one of those is going to have to change, because if nothing else, this comments section has convinced us of one thing; the current setup we have is ''utterly confusing.'' Look at the Mario Strikers Charged section, and then hit Page Down a few times to see the Mario & Sonic series section, and it's practically two separate articles, and not just because of the odd layout. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 00:26, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:::::::"Birdo," the bow-wearing, funnel-mouthed feminine dinosaur, is a single concept. Pretending it is any more than that is just silly. Again, it's no more confusing than Wiggler suddenly being a character in SM64 or pretty much the entire ''Mario & Luigi'' series. The devs interpret the ''singular concept'' in different ways depending on the medium in question. They've been doing this since the beginning, with ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' having its two Marios. Birdo here is ''no different''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:31, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:::::::I also want to add that the fact multiple Birdos exist doesn't mean there's an actual distinction between them and "the character" Birdo. They're just additional instances of that same character. As I've argued before, a series that often cares so little about making narrative sense should be free to have multiple of a character without us inventing explanations about there actually being a distinct species. Yoshi and Toad at least have had a couple explicit statements that they are individual characters in a species of the same name, while Birdo, to my knowledge, never has. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:02, February 4, 2025 (EST)

I believe I already went over how '''THE''' Birdo has a separate role in plots not pertaining to other birdos. Regarding the ''Mario Baseball'' games, '''THE''' Birdo is given an actual ''role'' in the "plot" via the two games' story modes and cinematics. Also, to answer your other question: Do we not generally assume green [[Yoshi (species)|Yoshis]] to be '''THE''' [[Yoshi]] (especially in the [[Yoshi (franchise)|Yoshi games]]) or red [[Toad (species)|Toads]] to be '''THE''' [[Toad]]? That aside, I believe I've made a good argument for ''SMB2'' 's "Pink Birdo" being '''THE''' [[Birdo]]. In games where she appears alone, it can be assumed that a "Pink Birdo" is '''THE''' Birdo. Regarding the ''Mario Baseball'' games, its easy to say that the playable Birdo is '''THE''' Birdo because the only color to play as is pink and other birdos simply appear in the audience rather than being playable, not to mention "the pink birdo" in those games is the one that gets the most attention from the story/cinematics.--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 00:11, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:So? That's less distinction than [[Koopa Kid]] gets throughout the ''Mario Party'' games, and it's not split. Also, regarding audience, since your point there hinges on that: MKDD had multiple DKJrs in the audience. Should we make a "Donkey Kong Jr. (species)" article? MKW replaced it with a blue Birdo, but then MK7 replaced it with the pink Birdo, again in multiple. And how do we know there's not multiple pinks in SMB2? That was the interpretation contemporary cartoons and comics had, after all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:20, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:We shouldn't have to "assume" whether an appearance of Birdo is an appearance of "the Birdo". Covering these two identical subjects on the same page is a handy way to avoid having to make speculative calls like that, on top of the added bonus of making the information easier to find. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:08, February 4, 2025 (EST)

The Toad species exist as citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom, while Toad is Peach's right-hand man. The Yoshi species are the inhabitants of Yoshi's Island, while Yoshi is Mario's steed. I don't feel super convinced that "Birdo" ''is'' a species, any more than it is color palette swaps to indicate a difference in mechanics like Mouser, sports game team affiliation, or simple customization freedom in Mario Kart games. There are dozens of differently dressed Marios that can appear side by side in ''Mario Kart Tour'', but I strongly doubt Mario is a species.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 00:22, February 4, 2025 (EST)

The Birdo species are the inhabitants of [[Subcon]], while Birdo is a celebrity of the [[Mushroom Kingdom]]. Regarding the multiple DKJR.s and Marios, they are all of the species, [[:Category:Kongs|Kongs]] and [[:Category:Humans|Humans]], respectively and therefore already have species pages. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 00:35, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:...what? Birdo's only been anything resembling a "celebrity" in the later ''Paper Mario'' games, and has otherwise been anything from [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|an exotic pet]] to [[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|a chaotic neutral romantic menace]]. This just shows how versatile the portrayal of this ''singular concept'' is. And no, that's not even a remotely comparable situation. That's like saying Birdo and Yoshi's species article should just be [[dinosaur]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:38, February 4, 2025 (EST)

We (basically the entire world) don’t actually know Birdo’s gender, so refer to them with gender-neutral pronouns. {{User:Mushroom Head/sig}} 00:39, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:This comment section is already long enough as-is without bringing up unrelated issues. So don't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:43, February 4, 2025 (EST)

This proposal aims to put
<gallery>
Birdosoccer.png|this
MSBL Birdo artwork.png|and this
</gallery>
on separate pages. I don't think I need to explain why I feel that violates common sense and basic sensibilities, but here we are. The two images clearly show what is intended by the developers to be the same entity, just given a more starring role in the later game rather than the assist role said entity had in the previous games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:46, February 4, 2025 (EST)

Only the manual for ''SMB2'' claims Birdo is male, everything else either implies or outright claims her to be a transgender or cisgender woman. Also, the article itself refers to Birdo by feminine pronouns. To respond to Doc, the multiple DKJRs and Marios that you brought up as an example are not even a remotely comparable situation to the multiple Birdos. Even if they were, the multiple DKJRs are an easter egg, not an attempt at showing the player that they are a species and the multiple Marios are simply costumes rather than multiple Marios. With other instances of multiple Marios, it's an easter egg. (In the case of [[Donkey Kong Jr. (game)|the arcade DKJR]]'s opening showing two Marios, that is self-explanatorily just the devs having fun and not trying to create a new species)--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 01:01, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:Why is it only "the devs having fun" when you don't personally want to split it? Why can't Birdo also be "the devs having fun" (or rather, the devs not caring about a meaningless distinction between "species" and "character")? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:29, February 4, 2025 (EST)

Might I also remind you that
<gallery>
SMPJ Yoshi.png|this
NSMBU Mario and Yoshi Jumping Artwork.png|and this
</gallery>
are on separate pages. <s>Additionally, don't gaslight voters by pretending I'm only trying to split the one color. It's insincere and in bad faith.</s> Also, {{@|PopitTart}} your [[Fire Mario|example]] you bring up in your oppose reasoning has its own article so you're contradicting yourself. --{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 01:07, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:In what universe did what I say indicate I meant just the one color? Also, I've made it abundantly clear I'd prefer the [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Yossy|Yoshis be merged to an extent]] (but the sheet ''amount'' of different appearances makes that difficult - much unlike Birdo), and ''also also'' the point I was making with the images obviously had to do with the ''Strikers'' aspect, which accounts for a large amount of what would be on the "species" article, and is an especially egregious example of why splitting these is pointless, counterproductive, and outright negative to the wiki's readability, navigability, and overall accuracy. Also ''please'' start putting your responses in indents after the comments they are addressing rather than stretching things further downward by lumping them together at the end. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:11, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:I am not contradicting myself. Fire Mario has a separate page as it is a specific distinct form, which is very different from a "Mario (species)" page. Mario is still one character. I think splitting the distinct Birdo enemies in SMB2 with different abilities could be reasonable, but that is a very different topic.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 01:18, February 4, 2025 (EST)

One of the major issues with the previous split was the SMB2 section. Splitting it leads to a major {{wp|Morton's fork}}: either you cover all three types on the species article and violate [[Mariowiki:Once and only once|once and only once]], or you only put the red and green ones on the species page and end up arbitrary and lopsided. There's a ''reason'' we tend to not split color variants, and that's a major part of it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:17, February 4, 2025 (EST)

I was mistaken of your intention with the pictures and I apologize for that. With the article being negative, Toad (species) is partly conjecture so how is that not negative? 
Also we have the part conjecture template so the "inaccurate" parts can be simply said to be conjectural. With navigability, how? There would only be the two articles and they'd both show up when you type "Birdo". To add onto that, the about template can be put on top on Birdo's article like what we have with Toad. For the other points, I don't have a counterargument as they're mostly subjective. I have a crazy idea. You could split Birdo, Red Birdo, and Green Birdo from Birdo (species) which would admittedly leave less on the Birdo (species) article but wouldn't violate [[Mariowiki:Once and only once|once and only once]].--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 01:48, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:Again, ''please'' use indents. Anyways, BS and SMA don't really characterize them much at all different beyond pitch of voice and again, we don't generally split color variations, so I still think that that's not a good option. Now, as I have said before, separating character and species pages is not something we should ''strive'' for, it should be a last resort when both have a lengthy history that is defined relatively consistently - our aim is not to make  "fictional character biographies" or anything silly like that, we simply describe subjects as they are characterized throughout their various roles, appearances, and amounts-of-individuals. The supposed "species" article would cover little over ten pieces of media even when fully counting background cameos, and most of them would be completely unrelated to each other. Unlike Toad, Yoshi, and Magikoopa, which have appeared in both roles in innumerable pieces of media, which as such are not anywhere near as incongruent as jumping from ''Super Show'' to ''Strikers''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:07, February 4, 2025 (EST)

As a parallel case, why exactly do we have [[Lakitu (Mario Kart referee)]] separate from [[Fishin' Lakitu]]? For example, how do we know the Lakitu referee is one character instead of a different "representative character" of his species in any game? As well, all the info on his own page could go on the Fishin' Lakitu page, which is rather short on its own. If these two pages pass the criteria to stand on their own, I would think that Birdo and Birdo (species) should do the same. Anyone have further thoughts to add to this point? [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 02:30, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:As I see it, the ''Mario Kart'' Lakitu is a well defined particular form of Lakitu. If you asked me to describe traits of a Lakitu, I'd say they're a Mario enemy that sits in clouds and throws spinies, and some of them dangle things like blocks. If you asked me about the one in ''Mario Kart'' specifically, then I could go into detail about how that's the Lakitu that wears a headset and waves the checkered flag  and saves you from falling off the course. Conversely, if you ask me to describe a Birdo, I'd say she's a dinosaur-ish enemy that shoots eggs, wears a bow, <s>and is absolute gender goals</s>. If you asked to to describe ''"The"'' Birdo specifically, I couldn't. There isn't a distinction.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 03:05, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:See [[Talk:Fishin' Lakitu]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:29, February 4, 2025 (EST)

@Seandwalsh: We aren't arguing whether she's portrayed as an individual or not. We're arguing whether an actual meaningful difference exists between "the Birdo character" and "the Birdo species". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:31, February 4, 2025 (EST)

I'm with the other opposers. Why should we treat Birdo as a different species when there's no real meaningful difference between her and her species? We also have Mario Kart Lakitu split on the grounds that he was called Fishin' Lakitu in the Japanese SMK manual. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:59, February 4, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Tails777}} - Given how low the species appearance count is, it makes more sense to treat it how we treat [[Wiggler]] which has a similarly low character appearance count (though incidentally, "character" Wiggler appears more often than "species" Wiggler... and appears nearly as often as "character" Birdo with about the same level of characterization consistency, ie not much that can't be gleaned from their designs alone). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:11, February 4, 2025 (EST)

{{@|Kirby the Formling}} - She should be different because so-called "species" Birdo has very few appearances (all of which are derivative of the so-called "character" in disparate manners to each other), unlike Toad, Yoshi, and Magikoopa, who have had plenty appearances in either role. As I said in the comment above, Birdo's situation is more comparable to [[Wiggler]], which we never have split, nor should we. Splitting a single concept into multiple pages is not something we should ''strive'' for. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:24, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:The Difference with Wiggler's is that they are all diffrent characters, the Wiggler from Super Mario 64 is clearly not the same Wiggler from Bowser's Inside Story, and neither of them are the same Wiggler from Sparx of Hope. Birdo the Character is always the same one. Also unlike Boom Boom There are actual diffrent Colors of Birdo's, something that dosn't happen to other "singular" characters ( especially not that consistently ). [[User:Kirby the Formling|Kirby the Formling]] ([[User talk:Kirby the Formling|talk]]) 16:02, February 4, 2025 (EST)
::It is ''not'' "always the same one," hence how the ''Super Mario RPG'' one is shown hatching from an egg during its battle and their personalities/affiliations often differ (hence why they're sometimes a friend, sometimes an enemy, and sometimes neutral). Also, Wiggler from ''Dream Team'', ''Sticker Star'', and ''Paper Jam'' all have the same basic personality and speech patterns. Also, the "character" [[Toad]] was blue in ''3D World'' and some other games, so yes they ''do'' get "different colors." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:09, February 4, 2025 (EST)

:That's under the assumption that this situation encompasses only one concept. The species page being short is irrelevant, reread point 6 of my proposal reasoning. On the topic of [[Mariowiki:Once and only once|once and only once]], both Toad articles violate this with them both covering the ''Mario Baseball'' games, specifically in mentioning "a red toad" (appearing in the cinematics) that the [[History of Toad]] claims to be '''THE''' [[Toad]]. So, I'd argue that its more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule. 
:I'd also like you to consider [[Birdo|the article]]'s about line, "This article is about Birdo, the character and species seen in several games." The character '''AND''' species; This is an admission from the article itself that the species exists and as such, we ought to cover it regardless of the risks.--{{User:Pizza Master/sig}} 15:53, February 4, 2025 (EST)
::Wiggler is also a character and species. It makes the most sense to cover them in one place when there's never any consistent difference between "feminine dinosaur with trumpet snout in the singular" and "feminine dinosaur with trumpet snout in the plural." Please note that Japanese has ''no'' distinction between singular and plural, and definite articles like "the" also don't exist. There is only one concept being described here, and the amount of individuals it covers at any given time is ''completely irrelevant''. <s>Also, you're ''still'' not indenting for responses!</s> EDIT: Thank you. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:10, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:::To the Japanese argument, I have a question. Are you saying in the Japanese language, there's no distinction and "the" doesn't exist or there's no distinction or "the" for Birdo specifically in the Japanese language? I am not well versed in Japanese. [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])
::::(This indentation is correct, thank you.) Japanese language has no counterpart to the word "the" at all, so, for instance, "Yoshi," "the Yoshi," "Yoshis," and "the Yoshis" are all written simply as "Yoshi." The closest you will get for differentiating a group is rarely "-tachi" will be added to the end of a group, roughly translating to the English "and co." phrase. This is also why there are so many examples of character/species in Japanese media, because there's no grammatical awkwardness in writing them in either role, it's just a matter of course. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:02, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:::::I really don't have anything to directly counter that point. Thanks for the clarification (and you're welcome for the indents, I didn't read every rule and help page, so I was unsure what I was doing wrong and I apologize). However, while I respect your arguments (and opinions), I still respectfully disagree. [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])
::If a rule is already being broken, that's not a reason to decide to break it even more. Also, using the article itself as a source makes no sense, it's not official in the slightest (and besides, if you wanna talk about "admissions from the article itself", why not read a couple paragraphs in: "While Birdo is often portrayed as an individual character, there have also been many appearances of multiple Birdos"). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:09, February 4, 2025 (EST)

[[File:MSB audience front.gif|frame|The audience texture for the baseball games; no Birdos in sight.]]
By the way, you keep bringing up Birdos appearing in the audience in the baseball games. Where, exactly? The opening doesn't count, that's the exact same audience that was used in ''Power Tennis'' and the ''Strikers'' games for ''their'' openings as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:12, February 4, 2025 (EST)

I feel like the sheer absurdity of ''[[Mario Strikers: Battle League]]'' saying a team can have five Shy Guys, five Toads, or five Yoshis, but not five Birdos, should count for something. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 22:38, February 4, 2025 (EST)
:Probably because the devs of that one didn't think Birdo was seen much as a species anymore... too bad ''Tour'' and ''8DX'' started using colored Birdos again immediately afterward. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:57, February 4, 2025 (EST)

{{@|PopitTart}} By the same token, how would you describe ''the'' Yoshi and ''the'' Toad? In his own games, Yoshi's role is even headed by other Yoshis like in ''[[Yoshi's Story]]''. Or in other games where he appears on his own, he could just be a representative Yoshi. And for Toad, he used to have a unique design with red spots and blue vest, but then they started using that design for multiple Toads too.
{{@|Hewer}}, regarding the [[Lakitu (Mario Kart referee)]], I've read the talk page and seen the proposal, but the most thorough reasons listed there to support a new page apply directly to Birdo too:
*"Since we have plenty of games with a <s>referee Lakitu</s> [Birdo] and even a playable <s>referee Lakitu</s> [Birdo], this is no longer that far-fetched of a possibility [that they are a unique character deserving of their own page]".
*"By now the <s>referee Lakitu</s> [Birdo] is practically treated as its own character."
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Regarding the audience, while ''Super Mario Strikers'' and ''Mario Superstar Baseball'' may share an audience, I think their appearance in ''Mario Super Sluggers'' should count for something since the Monty Moles appear updated with their modern design in the game's cinematics, as opposed to the ''Mario Party Advance'' design used in ''Mario Power Tennis''. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 02:19, February 5, 2025 (EST)
Upon further consideration, I believe that the main point of contention shouldn't be "is Birdo a unique character or a species"; I think there's sufficient concrete examples of Birdo being portrayed as a unique individual as well as of her species existing. But we should be discussing "what are the merits and shortcomings of having a single page for Birdo vs. having pages for Birdo as a character and as a species". [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 02:52, February 5, 2025 (EST)
:My stance is that Birdo being an individual character doesn't mean there can't be more than one of her, because it's the Mario franchise and the devs often don't care about narrative consistency, they're just gonna use however many they need of any character. And I also strongly believe that splitting the article was only disadvantageous in regards to navigation and finding information, it just makes people looking for info about the same thing (dinosaur character called Birdo) have to hunt it down across two separate pages, on top of forcing us to unhelpfully [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|repeat]] the Super Mario Bros. 2 information across both articles. I really don't see any way in which that arrangement was beneficial. Covering all information about Birdo on the page called Birdo instead of making up pointless character-species distinctions means we can provide all the information about her in one complete article, rather than one mostly but not quite complete article and one unfocused mess of an article. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:29, February 5, 2025 (EST)
::Exactly my stance. I see no difference between the coexistence of Birdo, Birdo (Yellow), and Birdo (Black) in ''Tour'' and the coexistence of Mario, Mario (Santa), and Mario (SNES).--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 03:48, February 5, 2025 (EST)
:::Precisely this. Also, MarioComix, in regards to Monty Mole, MSB used both designs for different contexts, so I don't see what difference that makes. The sequel updating the disparity was ultimately a matter of course since it was now a default character; that doesn't mean it'd remove a random other crowd-filler audience member. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:29, February 5, 2025 (EST)

I'm abstaining from this, because I don't want to plunge into this long discussion, but I see articles for Red Birdo and Green Birdo could work; we have articles for [[White Shy Guy]] and [[Black Shy Guy]], after all, and also for [[Yellow Toad and Blue Toad]]... but if we do, does that mean we have to make articles for Red Yoshi, Yellow Yoshi and Blue Yoshi as well? They have specific Koopa Shell powers in ''[[Super Mario World]]''. Two of the tree are also playable in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' alongside the light blue one, too. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:38, February 5, 2025 (EST)
:For what it's worth, in Mario Kart Tour and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, the Yoshi and Shy Guy colours have names like "White Yoshi" and "White Shy Guy" while the Birdo colours instead have names like "Birdo (White)" (the same naming convention used by character variants like "Mario (Musician)"). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:38, February 5, 2025 (EST)
::The [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/usa/index.html Mario Portal] also recently updated to change colored enemies like the Koopa Troopas and Shy Guys to be "Red Koopa Troopa" and "Pink Shy Guy" rather than "Koopa Troopa (red)" and "Shy Guy (pink)", but Birdo remains with the parentheses.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:41, February 5, 2025 (EST)

The difference between THE Birdo and THE Yoshi and THE Toad is that there's never a differentiator between her and others of her kind, something similar to Yoshi being the only green one among multiples of different colors or Toad being the only red Toad with a blue vest in among monochromatic Toads. Either Birdo is the only Birdo in the game or or she's with other pink Birdos. She doesn't have a unique west-exclusive name that helps set her apart from other Birdos like Kamek, either. [[User:DesaMatt|DesaMatt]] ([[User talk:DesaMatt|talk]]) 21:10, February 5, 2025
:Your vote and this comment indicate opposite viewpoints. Your comment here says "there's no way to tell them apart," your vote says "let's split them," together basically saying "there's no way to tell them apart, but let's split them anyway despite the fact that, as previously stated, we literally cannot tell." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:16, February 5, 2025 (EST)
:Actually, there is at least one game where there are multicolor Birdos and Birdo the character in the same scene, [[Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games]]. [[User:Kirby the Formling|Kirby the Formling]] ([[User talk:Kirby the Formling|talk]]) 04:49, February 6, 2025 (EST).  https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QrVanmtOLVs/maxresdefault.jpg
::"Team Birdo" there is just made of four multicolored versions of Birdo with the same non-playable role. It's not like the pink Birdo is a playable character or anything. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:25, February 6, 2025 (EST)

If Nintendo doesn't make a distinction between Birdo the character and Birdo the species, then neither should we. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:14, February 6, 2025 (EST)

Since the primary argument by the supporters seems to be "consistency with Yoshi and Toad", I'd like to again point out that there are far more cases of these character/species things not being split, such as [[Wiggler]], [[Boom Boom]], [[Draggadon]], [[Talk:Koopa (Mario Party DS)#Merge to Koopa Troopa|this Koopa]], [[Talk:Hammer Bro (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)#Merge to Hammer Bros. (mach deux)|that Hammer Bro]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|the Mario Party Advance characters]], and [[Dorrie]] and [[Koopa Kid]] (those two even have unique colours like Birdo), as well as pretty much every time a generic representative of a species appears as a singular playable character or boss in a spin-off. How is Birdo different from all of those? Also, while not super common, Yoshi and Toad have had a few official mentions of the character/species distinction, such as "[[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Yoshi's Crafted World|There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis]]" and "[[List of Toad profiles and statistics#Play Nintendo|In a kingdom full of Toads, there is only one “Toad”]]", while Birdo has never had something like that to my knowledge. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:38, February 7, 2025 (EST)
:The key difference is that Birdo was established as a singular character first and as a species later. I know, I know, doesn't seem big, but take it from the perspective that on first introduction, those characters listed are clearly enemies and we can see multiples of them at a time, or they're the odd case of Dorrie where there was only one originally, but there were clearly multiples and they were referred to in the plural form in ''Odyssey'' (or Draggadon too). Funnily enough, I saw a jokingly-toned video recently about our [[MIPS]] page and they were complaining that we mention "multiple MIPS can be seen on [[Woody Woods]]" even though MIPS is meant to be a singular character and not a species, while we mention "multiple owls resembling [[Hoot]]" for a similar background asset. These just go to show that the order of introduction does matter to a degree, at least until it's very conflictingly shown. For example, I also mentioned the examples of multiples of [[Donkey Kong Jr.]], [[Toadsworth]], [[Petey Piranha]], and [[Toadette]], but these were almost all one-off incidents. But if these had continued to recur and conflict with what we know, then it would be appropriate to rebrand them to species or something along those lines. The point is, I think it's fair to make the distinction that there is a Birdo and many Birdos, but it's still better to keep them on the same page. (Also as a minor note, all the ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' character bios, from wherever they were pulled, very clearly refer to the enemy characters using plurals, but Yoshi, Toad, and Birdo in the singular. Just a little something that shows the official bio collators are at least considering Birdo as the individual.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 01:17, February 8, 2025 (EST)
::''Was'' Birdo "established as a singular character first", though? The first appearance already had Birdos of multiple colours that may or may not have been the same individual. It seems the interpretation of them as a singular character just happened to be the one the wiki went with, so when later games unambiguously featured multiple, we decided that had to be a species and get split. You're right that the order of introduction seems to matter to us fans, but I highly doubt it matters to the developers. As I've been arguing, I think this whole idea of "if there's one it's an individual character but if there's multiple it's a species and if something is shown to be one then it can't be the other" is a bit silly and trying to make up narrative explanations for things that don't have any, in games that care little about narrative. Same goes for the idea that a species becoming a character is in some way a different situation from a character becoming a species. I feel pretty confident that this split would never have happened if SMB2 depicted Birdo as more unambiguously a "species" (like if it had two on-screen at once or something) even if the entire rest of the character's history was identical, which suggests to me that "Birdo when there's only one" and "Birdo when there's more than one" really aren't distinct subjects. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:29, February 8, 2025 (EST)
::: And besides, the Red and Green Birdo's quotes in SMA ("I'm gonna finish you off!" and "I'm ready for you ''this'' time!") indicate it's just the regular Birdo in new color schemes and as such, the same character. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:19, February 8, 2025 (EST)
::::Super Mario Advance wasn't the first appearance. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:35, February 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::It's a remake of it, though, not a separate instance. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:07, February 8, 2025 (EST)
::::Except that in ''[[BS Super Mario USA]]'', Pink Birdo, Red Birdo, and Green Birdo are all indicated as separate characters ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw0-ous94Xs As seen here], and some [[:File:Subcon desert.png|episode]] [[:File:World 5.png|title cards]]), not as one and the same being. The [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_NES/manual/Formated/Super_Mario_Bros._2_-_1986_-_Nintendo.pdf manual for SMB2] is unfortunately no help either; while it does describe Birdo as a singular character, that applies to ''every'' enemy in the game. {{User:Arend/sig}} 10:31, February 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::The amount of inconsistency here is further reason to list these all together. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:07, February 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::Well, not just in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', but in Birdo's subsequent appearances such as ''Wario's Woods'', ''Super Mario RPG'', ''Mario Tennis'', and so on, Birdo was being portrayed as more of a singular character without multiples of her at the same time. (''BS Super Mario USA'' would appear to be the first to show multiple Birdos, although it is Japan-only so not a widespread influence on the Western public opinion. Also, not sure if the decision to distinctly have multiple Birdos at once was from Nintendo EAD or St.GIGA, not that they would have cared too much.) And even when Birdos first appeared in the ''Mario Power Tennis'' cinematics, they made a point of not including any pink Birdos despite Camelot already having the model available from ''Toadstool Tour'' should they have so chosen, not even when the red Birdo appears in Bowser's trophy cutscene. To me, that was a conscious choice to distinguish pink Birdo the character from other Birdos, so I think there was some attempt to portray Birdo as an individual character for some time. (Not that it matters to my opinion on the page's fate though, we should keep them merged for ease of use.) [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 00:26, February 9, 2025 (EST)
::::::Western adaptations also tended to interpret them as a species, though in Nintendo Comics System King Koopa and his family members were pretty much the only enemy characters that ''weren't'' treated as a species whenever the writers felt like it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:33, February 9, 2025 (EST)
::::::Yeah, ''BS Super Mario USA'' is not actually the first Mario-related thing to show Birdo as a species, or at the very least show multiple Birdos in the same room. ''[[The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!]]'' has frequently utilized Birdos as part of the Koopa Pack, and the very first episode, "[[The Bird! The Bird!]]", introduces ''two'' Birdo characters unaffiliated with King Koopa. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:32, February 9, 2025 (EST)
:::::::Oh right, duh, I forgot about the ''Super Show'' appearances. I will say that these three appearances are still more niche portrayals of multiple Birdos outside of the main games (the start of which is in ''Mario Power Tennis'' where they're more front-and-center), and so it would make sense for these instances to be more obscure (especially before the advent of the Internet and archiving such information on a Wiki, heh). And then when there are multiple Birdos in a game, either the pink Birdo is singled out by being playable or not in the audience, or it's in a game like ''Strikers'' where they're colour-coded and also treated the same as other species/enemy characters. But I digress. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 20:37, February 9, 2025 (EST)

::::::::In the ''Super Mario USA'' arc of the ''[[Super Mario (Kodansha manga)|Super Mario]]'' Kodansha manga, Birdo is referred to by her appropriate Japanese name of Catherine but is also given the nickname, "Cathie". ([[:File:KC Deluxe Mario USA enemies.jpg|on page 6]]) The Birdo that appears throughout most of the issue has a completely dark bow (presumably red) with no special pattern on it. On page 114, two other Birdos show up with special patterns on their bows to indicate they are not the same as the Birdo that has been seen throughout the other pages of the issue. ([[:File:Cathies.jpg|the 3 Birdos]]) From what I understand, neither of the other two Birdos are referred to by a name, not Catherine and not Cathie. So THE Birdo in the manga is the one Birdo referred to as "Cathie". [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])

:::::::::On the topic of [[Mario Kart 8]], a [[:File:MK8-WomenofRacing1.png|Women of Racing]] billboard shows Birdo (specifically "Pink Birdo"). This would imply that the playable pink Birdo is the character whereas the other colors are simply other birdos adding to the appearences of THE Birdo alongside other Birdos. [[User:Pizza Master|Pizza Master]] ([[User talk:Pizza Master|talk]])
::::::::::That was there in the original game, whereas all playable ones were delayed DLC of the port several years later. Either way, nothing's stopping them all from being "the" Birdo. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:37, February 15, 2025 (EST)