Editing Talk:Bird (Donkey Kong series)

==Consider this enemy the crow from Donkey Kong Junior?==
{{talk}}
After comparing two sprites for the Kuro and the Crow-based nitpickers, the two share very similar appearances, besides appearing with the same abilities and basically the same location. Should we consider them the same, then?
--[[User:TheMorningFlash|TheMorningFlash]] ([[User talk:TheMorningFlash|talk]]) 12:52, 15 February 2018 (EST)
:The Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia lists their appearances as just GB DK, unlike Spark, which shows both DK Jr, and GB DK. Granted, this is the same source that lists the SMUSA Spark in a different section and has separate sections for "Trouble Bug" (arcade DK) and "Drum Fire" (GB DK), along with the separation of Pauline into two characters, so it's not the most reliable source in regards to things like that.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:58, 15 February 2018 (EST)

Having just played through the game, I'd like to revisit this. The only level they are in is a recreation of Stage 4 from DKJr, with the added twist that Mario is pushing up locks to trap DK Jr instead of Jr. pushing up keys to free DK, and Poison Mushrooms replacing Snapjaws. Perhaps there should indeed be a split n' merge here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:16, 10 December 2018 (EST)
:I honestly thought the split of the Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'' Nitpickers into three articles was unnecessarily confusing since the main difference between each them is the stage layout, but we do have references also calling the raven enemies from ''Donkey Kong Junior'' Nitpickers (albeit via the licensed home ports). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:54, 10 December 2018 (EST)
::All of which came before the "Kuro" name was a thing. Additionally, most enemies in that game follow one of a few different behavior types, ie "walking back-and-forth," "walking around platforms," "walking around platforms and having spikes," and those birds. There are other enemy types that don't fit into a mold, and the ones that do typically have some variation (like whether or not they can be picked up), but the point still stands. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:17, 10 December 2018 (EST)
:::True, but it does complicate the name somewhat - suppose it merges, should we title it "Nitpicker (crow)" (taking クロ to mean that since its color was purple or blue instead of black in the original game), title it "Crow (Nitpicker)" (with the another language tag remaining), or something else? And as a side note, if all these different birds are technically not Nitpickers either way, then I feel we should at least split the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' Bird from Nitpicker for consistency (also as it seems to be a toy variation according to the artwork in ''March of the Minis'', and we've already split most of the series' other mechanical counterparts of organic enemies). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:40, 10 December 2018 (EST)
:::Additional things to note: the [https://i.imgur.com/Jr5Go9J.jpg description from the old encyclopedia] calls it a crow (カラス) and doesn't refer to its color at all, supporting the notion that "Kuro" was meant to romanize as "Crow" instead of doubling as the Japanese word for "black" (which could just be a consequence of the Game Boy sprites). Also, the same source we have naming the original arcade enemy a "Nitpicker" is also the same one that refers to the actual Nitpicker by a different name (Stookybird), so these birds were probably always intended to be separate. So I think "Crow (enemy)" would be the best option for the title, as Nitpicker seems to be a genuine mistake. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:02, 16 December 2018 (EST)
::::Should we leave Kuro as a redirect? I'm used to the name Kuro. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:56, 16 December 2018 (EST)
:::::I don't see why not. I should mention that I see "Crow" more often transliterated as "Kurō" (クロウ / クロー), so perhaps we could leave "Kuro" alone just to be cautious, although it would look awkward next to the other ''Donkey Kong Junior'' enemies. Any other suggestions on the title? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:50, 16 December 2018 (EST)
::::::I do't think "Crow" would look awkward next to Hawks, Sniper, and several other romanizeable names, as well as several that were named in later games like MvsDK. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:25, 16 December 2018 (EST)
I know this is over a year old by now, but I came across some new information that can affect this discussion. ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' has a section in ''Playing With Power: Nintendo NES Classics'', and in it, the crow-like enemies are identified as a type of Nitpicker. On page 43, under '''Nitpickers''' (both pictured): "''You encounter two different types of Nitpickers n''{{sic}}'' your quest to free Donkey Kong. The white-bodied Nitpickers found in Round 2 drop eegs as they fly through the area. The larger, blue-bodied Nitpickers found in Round 4 don’t drop eggs, but they do zigzag back and forth across the stage as they make their way toward the bottom of the screen.''" The rest of the guide calls them Nitpickers, with Round 2 enemies mentioned as "''these Nitpickers can drop eggs as they fly''" on page 46 and the Round 4 enemies described as "''a series of large Nitpickers''" on page 48. Admittedly, this source does have a concern that it references fansites - although it acknowledges that "''Maps for Kid Icarus, Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, and Zelda II: The Adventure of Link created by Rick Bruns (www.nesmaps.com).''" on the last page, it adds a ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' enemy profile for '''[http://www.dkvine.com/interactive/forums/index.php?s=a6a177e4dc1745482c9900c9d25aaa6b&showtopic=13535&view=findpost&p=481571 Tweester]''' on page 201 ("''The tornadoes that will gladly either help or hinder Mario’s progress.''"). While I haven't noticed any other glaring examples of wiki-borrowing, here's the thing - though we listed those tornadoes as Tweesters for a [[Special:Diff/24336|long]] [[Special:Diff/2334171|time]], we did '''''not''''' refer to the crow-like enemies as Nitpickers until [[Special:Diff/2057797|much]] [[Special:Diff/2385779|afterwards]]. At the very least, this shows that both are unambiguously referred to as Nitpickers in official capacity, and that this information did not come from us. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:10, December 24, 2019 (EST)
:Given official information that the raven-like enemy is a type of Nitpicker and Kuro is likely intended to be the same entity, shall we simply merge Kuro with Nitpicker? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:12, December 26, 2019 (EST)
::I'd be in favor of that. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 13:48, December 26, 2019 (EST)
:::I'd prefer to leave it listed as a variant. I'd consider this a "split in hindsight" situation like with Bull's-Eye Bill and Bouncing Bullet Bill. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:15, December 26, 2019 (EST)
:::Another thing occurred to me, this one involving Kaibado/Kaibird. "Kai" in Japanese essentially means "reoccurrence of" or "altered from," if my memory serves me right, and "Bado"/"Bird" is another JP name for Nitpicker (and while our current sources only list the MvsDK Shogakukan book as a source there, I'd be very surprised if it weren't called that sooner). Perhaps ''it's'' intended as the closest analogue to the "real" Nitpicker, in light of that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:29, December 26, 2019 (EST)
::::I'd prefer we also list Hawks as a derivative of Nitpicker at that point, though I really don't think "Bird" was an alternate name for Nitpicker until ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''. The Family Computer [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POX7YVSceNg&t=7m31s manual] and Virtual Console [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/data/software/manual/man_takj.pdf manual] and [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/vc/vc_dkjr/vc_dkjr_03.html site] all call it 「ニットピッカー」 (Nitpicker), not 「バード」 (Bird). The closest thing is a generic mention of "bird" in ''[[NES Remix#Donkey Kong Jr.|NES Remix]]''; however, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ldXQckCJPk&t=7m53s Famicom Remix] also generically refers to it as 「鳥」 (''tori'', bird), using kanji instead of katakana. Additionally, Nitpicker/Bird is more clearly depicted as a [[media:NitpickerMvsDK2.png|toy]] in its ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis'' closeup, so it (along with Snap Jaw and Sir Shovalot, potentially) may need to be split for consistency with the other toys. That aside, if we reorganize the Stage 4 bird as Kuro instead, we should probably at least call it Nitpicker with regard to ''Donkey Kong Junior'', although that's confusing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:37, December 27, 2019 (EST)
:::::It was called "bird" in an English manual from one of the many different console variants, at any rate, so it wouldn't surprise me if some overlooked reference somewhere in Japan called them that as well. I'd say something like "The crow-like Nitpicker first appeared in ''Donkey Kong Jr.'', or something to that effect. Anyways, I'd also support splitting the "toy" enemies; we split "Pokey (toy)," after all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:38, December 27, 2019 (EST)
::::::Probably a generic mention like in ''Famicom Remix''; either way, given the similarities with the Fire situation, I'm thinking they should be handled by the same proposal (the toys would be a separate issue). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:30, December 28, 2019 (EST)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Consider this enemy the crow from Donkey Kong Junior?==
+{{talk}}
 After comparing two sprites for the Kuro and the Crow-based nitpickers, the two share very similar appearances, besides appearing with the same abilities and basically the same location. Should we consider them the same, then?
 --[[User:TheMorningFlash|TheMorningFlash]] ([[User talk:TheMorningFlash|talk]]) 12:52, 15 February 2018 (EST)
@@ Line 19: / Line 20: @@
 ::::I'd prefer we also list Hawks as a derivative of Nitpicker at that point, though I really don't think "Bird" was an alternate name for Nitpicker until ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''. The Family Computer [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POX7YVSceNg&t=7m31s manual] and Virtual Console [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/data/software/manual/man_takj.pdf manual] and [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/vc/vc_dkjr/vc_dkjr_03.html site] all call it 「ニットピッカー」 (Nitpicker), not 「バード」 (Bird). The closest thing is a generic mention of "bird" in ''[[NES Remix#Donkey Kong Jr.|NES Remix]]''; however, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ldXQckCJPk&t=7m53s Famicom Remix] also generically refers to it as 「鳥」 (''tori'', bird), using kanji instead of katakana. Additionally, Nitpicker/Bird is more clearly depicted as a [[media:NitpickerMvsDK2.png|toy]] in its ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis'' closeup, so it (along with Snap Jaw and Sir Shovalot, potentially) may need to be split for consistency with the other toys. That aside, if we reorganize the Stage 4 bird as Kuro instead, we should probably at least call it Nitpicker with regard to ''Donkey Kong Junior'', although that's confusing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:37, December 27, 2019 (EST)
 :::::It was called "bird" in an English manual from one of the many different console variants, at any rate, so it wouldn't surprise me if some overlooked reference somewhere in Japan called them that as well. I'd say something like "The crow-like Nitpicker first appeared in ''Donkey Kong Jr.'', or something to that effect. Anyways, I'd also support splitting the "toy" enemies; we split "Pokey (toy)," after all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:38, December 27, 2019 (EST)
-::::::Probably a generic mention like in ''Famicom Remix''; either way, given the similarities with the Fire situation, I'm thinking they could be handled by the same proposal (the toys would be a separate issue). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:30, December 28, 2019 (EST)
+::::::Probably a generic mention like in ''Famicom Remix''; either way, given the similarities with the Fire situation, I'm thinking they should be handled by the same proposal (the toys would be a separate issue). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:30, December 28, 2019 (EST)
-==Decide how to handle this enemy==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|2-0-1-1-1|merge the raven-like Nitpicker with Kuro}}
-Please read above, but to summarize: both designs of the ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' bird are sometimes referred to as "Nitpickers" in home ports (many of which remove one of the designs), while Japanese material for Game Boy ''Donkey Kong'' contains a direct reference to Stage 4 of said game but gives a different name to the bird, which otherwise resembles the raven-like design of Nitpicker. It's clear that an effort was made to distinguish them for the Game Boy game, though both designs have yet to reappear in the same game together outside of emulation. The proposal will handle the situation in one of several ways. The first option will partially merge the information for the raven-like version of Nitpicker with the Kuro article. The remaining actions will fully merge the Kuro article with Nitpicker, but the details differ: the first method will still refer to the raven-like variant as Kuro in all appearances (including before they receive their unique name), the second method will refer to the raven-like variant as Kuro in the Game Boy game only, and the third method will refer to the Game Boy appearance as Nitpicker in general. The last option will simply leave the Nitpicker and Kuro articles alone, which I don't recommend since it's essentially [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|two articles for the same enemy]]. See also: [[Talk:Fire#Decide how to handle this enemy|Fire]].
-'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': February 4, 2020, 23:59 GMT
-===Merge the raven-like Nitpicker with Kuro===
-#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) I'd consider this divergent concept evolution, myself. Merging outright seems like a terrible idea IMO, not the least of which because it's giving older sources higher priority. Regardless, given that GBDK's enemy situation is basically Metroid's "we've resprited the enemy with the same behavior no one will notice lol," having multiple with the same info is just bound to happen.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second option, per Doc von Schmeltwick.
-===Merge Kuro with Nitpicker and refer to the raven-like variant as Kuro===
-===Merge Kuro with Nitpicker and refer to the raven-like variant as Kuro for the Game Boy game only===
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Alternative to below. It should also be noted that, unlike Fire, Kuro isn't 1:1 its equivalent in the Game Boy game, as it merges traits of both Nitpicker types in that it lays eggs like the other version.
-===Merge Kuro with Nitpicker and refer to the raven-like variant as Nitpicker===
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} It's clear Kuro is meant to be a name for the raven-like version of Nitpicker, and it makes sense for them to share the same article given their intertwined history; however, unlike the Fire situation, Kuro is only named as such in Japanese, and as the past has shown, the wiki has favored English names when possible (the difference will of course still be noted in the names in other languages section).
-===Leave as-is and do nothing===
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} My prefered option.
-===Comments===
-@Doc: The reason I don't side with the split or second options is because I believe it'd be too unnecessarily convoluted in the long run. Glowsquid once [[Special:Diff/2528590|suggested]] possibly going more in-depth with port articles in the future, and keeping the enemy on the same page saves some headache keeping track of which exact enemy variations appear in which game versions. Also, I think it's likelier that future developers will reference the arcade game or even the NES version over the Game Boy game, given its iconic status and amount of re-releases/ports. I have similar thoughts on the Fire proposal. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:30, January 21, 2020 (EST)
-:Thing is, if it does appear in a later game, it'd probably be a MvsDK game. The first MvsDK was a functional sequel to GBDK, and its influence still hasn't left it despite the more ''Lemmings''-esque direction the series moved in. Also, this is a DKJr enemy, and as such isn't really that much more "iconic" than GBDK from a modern standpoint. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:07, January 21, 2020 (EST)
-==Bird (Donkey Kong series)==
-If we have an English name, shouldn’t we move it to "Bird (Donkey Kong series)? [[User: Grandet Omate|Grandet Omate]] ([[User talk: Grandet Omate|talk]]) 21:19, August 15, 2020 (EDT)
-:Shared with [[Nitpicker]] (which it was considered to be across languages at the time of DKJr), so no. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:48, August 15, 2020 (EDT)
-::Some of the home conversions used alternate names (i.e. "Stookybirds" for Round 2 Nitpickers and "Birds" for Round 4 Nitpickers) to differentiate the two. I also found an [https://archive.org/details/donkey-kong-jr.-international-manual/mode/2up International version] that translates the latter into other languages. This is important since [[MarioWiki:Naming|policy]] is to use the international non-English name that came first (the example given is Mōgyo, which has the German name Ochsenfisch but the subject gets the Japanese name due to Japan's release being earlier); therefore, if we're making an exception for the English name Bird due to other bird articles, then technically, the article would still need to move to the French, German, Italian, or Spanish name. At that point, I'd say it's just simpler to use the English name instead of having to pick between one of the other four, either with the identifier Grandet Omate proposed or maybe with a "Nitpicker" identifier since this is basically considered a variant of it [see Flying Goomba (Galoomba) or Stretch (Shy Guy) for similar examples]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:15, December 7, 2021 (EST)