Editing Talk:Big Kyutyan

==Rapheal the Raven?==
It looks like Rapheal, the same size. REALLY! [[Special:Contributions/98.177.160.223|98.177.160.223]] 19:46, 11 April 2014 (EDT)

Should it be merge?

== Name ==
For reference, the Shogakukan guide does not give this enemy a unique name from normal Ravens, even when it's highlighted in World 5-7 on page 233. However, the game has a handful of internal filenames in <tt>G:content0.game/romfs/param/enemy</tt> - namely <tt>kyutyan_a_big.csv</tt>, <tt>kyutyan_b_big.csv</tt>, <tt>kyutyan_c_big.csv</tt> & <tt>kyutyan_s_big.csv</tt> - that suggest the name "Big Kyūchan". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:33, 24 December 2017 (EST)
:[[Raphael the Raven|That sounds familiar...]] [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:11, 25 December 2017 (EST)
::Given there's only one, the internal name matches Raphael's Japanese name, [[Tap-Tap the Golden|there are other boss-like minor unique enemies]], and the fact that in Japanese, these are less "characters" and more "generic members of the species that have been magically enlarged," I wouldn't be too opposed to merging this with Raphael's article. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:48, 8 February 2018 (EST)
:::Maybe it was described on the generic Raven's description on the manual? I asked to [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]]. {{user|FanOfYoshi}} 13:47, 1 September 2018 (EDT)
::::Accordingly, it doesn't describe the Giant Raven at all. LinkTheLefty told me that it didn't describe it... --{{user|FanOfYoshi}} 07:43, 3 September 2018 (EDT)
::::This one acts just like a non-altered raven. It pops when you step on it. Then maybe on Raven page? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:27, 26 September 2018 (EDT)
::It may be a coincidence, Nintendo didn't intend this Raven to be Raphael. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:33, 30 September 2018 (EDT)
:::You may start a proposal to give my opinion. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:18, 1 October 2018 (EDT)

== Merge Giant Raven with Raphael the Raven ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|4-5|don't merge}}
I don't think that they're intended to be the same thing, and seem to be just coincidental.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br>'''Deadline:''' November 5, 2018, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} There is only one of them in the game, internal data contains evidence of Raphael the Raven's Japanese name, and merging mitigates the use of conjecture tag. Considering it's a direct sequel, I'm sure the reference is intended.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Literally the only information we have indicates that they're the same. Besides, as I've noted before, in Japan, the bosses aren't characters, just random schlubs Kamek embiggerationalizes. I'd have supported the second this proposal was made had I known. File name, the fact that there's one, [[Tap-Tap the Golden|other]] [[Slime|enemy]] [[Kamek|"bosses"]] existing....
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|MarioManiac1981}} Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per. + Tetris Attack considered all of them as character, and it doesn't only consists of American  developpers, but also Japanese developpers. Paper Mario may be an exception, but all bosses are considered as characters in Tetris Attack. 
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Clearly different enough to warrant separate articles. <del>You sure you want to start a proposal that you ''oppose''?</del> There are still big enough differences, such as how Raphael can't be defeated with eggs or direct ground pounds, unlike this Raven, or how Raphael also creates star-shaped shockwaves, something also not present in this Raven.
#{{User|WeirdDave13}} Per all.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per all.

===Comments===
If anything else, why should we merge them? It appears to be a coincidence, and it deserves it own article. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 07:05, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:@Toadette, yes, sometimes the proposer is opposed.--{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:05, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:@Link, for you, they're both big, and i still consider bosses as characters. The Giant Raven walks like a normal Raven, while Raphael walks much more agressively and he bounces you. And the Giant Raven seems to be already big. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:23, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
::Boss-to-enemy having different behavior? [[Big Boo|So]] [[Wiggler|what]]? [[Boss Bass|Behavior]]s [[Cheep Cheep|aren't]] [[Ukiki|always]] [[Chargin' Chuck|consistent]], [[Tap-Tap|even for]] [[Lunge Fish|within the]] [[Clawdaddy|''Yoshi'' franchise]]. And your other reason requires usage of the word "seem." How about the fact that the file name literally spells out that it's Big Kyutan? Remember, Raph ain't a character in JP YI. And through this spelling out, shows that without a shadow of a doubt it '''''cannot''''' be "coincidence." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:29, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:::''So what'' so what? All of the enemies you mentioned in your vote aren't even considered bosses; only the enemies faced at the ends of forts and castles are considered bosses. I don't doubt that the resemblance isn't a coincidence, but as it stands, it appears to just be a resemblance and not Raphael himself. The internal filename is a start, but is there any more evidence that can be used to determine that this Raven is indeed Raphael? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 20:35, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
::::Both Big Boo and Wiggler have been bosses in various platform games with vastly different behaviors on all accounts, hence why I linked to only them in that statement o.o . The following statement is to show that using "within series" as justification regarding behavior differences won't work either. And once again, "Raphael" is a Woolseyism; it's just a big Raven. Not an individual outside of ''Paper Mario''. Just like how [[Prince Froggy]] isn't given ''a slightest hint'' of differentiation from [[Frog Pirate]] in Japanese. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:42, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:::::Raphael ''is'' treated as an individual in the games he appears in. Also, under this, you're essentially saying that Frog Pirate should be merged with Prince Froggy. See where I'm going with this? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 20:52, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
::::::Puttin' words in my mouth, there. [[Big Boo (boss)|When given various roles in the same game, differing articles they do indeed receive.]] [[Big Boo|This does not extend to differing roles in different games.]] And the file name is actual evidence from the game itself. And there's no substantial evidence on the contrary other than "well, I don't think so, because..." See where ''I'm'' going with ''this''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:55, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:::::::That doesn't answer anything. Keep in mind that internal filenames can't be 100% reliable as they're sometimes just random names given to assets so that the developers have a better idea of what is being referred to. They can't be treated as in-game if they appear in the code, but not in the actual game. Also, what about other cases like [[Boss Sumo Bro]]? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 21:10, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
::::::::Seems to be another enlarged generic, just translated more faithfully. Heck, technically, Petey Piranha's an enlarged generic, just from a bizarre off-model game of a bygone era who has since become far more distinct. Anyways, I have no problems with enlarged generics getting their own articles, it's just that if the only written evidence there is implies that the large creature is either the same enlarged generic from before or a being of the same nature, they should share an article. And remember, even though Petey's definitely a character now, [[Daisy Garden]] shows two of him at once.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:19, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:::::::Also, Raphael the Raven has different names from regular Ravens in all languages (maybe except German, but that's it), even Japanese. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 21:14, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:::::::::And note that in the original it's just "Big Kyu-chan/Kyutan" in Japanese. Big Raven. Not a character, just an enlarged dude. You seem to be misunderstanding my goal here; I in no way want regular Ravens merged with Raphael. That's silly. Even if we were basing off of Japanese names, I'd prefer the frog to be "Gerogero (boss)," since it has a different function from the other entities of the same name ''within the same game''. My thoughts on this plus-sized Raven situation is to do basically what the Wiggler page does regarding what's treated as the main variation of the creature of that name in each game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:19, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
:::In Tetris Attack, they were all treated as characters, and in Paper Mario, Raphael is a character because he needs to be helped. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:36, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
::::And that is an American-branded game due to being a reskin of ''Panel de Pon'', and as such is working with the Woolseyisms, not the original intent. I mentioned ''Paper Mario'' being the exception there, but even then, his behavior is outright incompatible with the ''Yoshi'' boss, so defining them both as a singular "character" would be dubious at best. They're Big Ravens, the original of which was given the name of Raphael in translation, and further ones kept that name. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:42, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
::For information, [[List of Tetris Attack staff|the creators of the game]] consisted of more Japanese people than American people. :O --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:45, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
:::And how many of those are not just the ''developers'' of the ''original'' game, ''Panel de Pon''? It wouldn't need to be re-developed, just reskinned. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:21, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
::+ The Giant Raven's behavior is drastically different from Raphael's behavior in this game. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:29, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
::::I've already covered that above. Don't make arguments that have already been covered. [[Ukiki]] went from a many-behaviored maniac in SMW2 to a harmless coward in YIDS. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:53, 25 October 2018 (EDT)

Given the file name says this is the same as Raphael, and unlike [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)]], [[Morty Mole]], and [[Magmaargh]], there are no sources that contradict it at all, saying that they're different is technically speculation. If this fails, the page will be moved to Big Kyu-Tan (or some variation thereof) anyways, which is Raphael's Japanese name. While I don't like file names to be sources for page names, here, this is the ''only'' source there is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:21, 30 October 2018 (EDT)

== Merge this article with Raphael the Raven (again) ==
{{TPP}}
Ok, so last time i opposed the proposal, which has been a mistake. We should fix a glaring mistake that has been since we found out what was the internal filename. Unlike cases, including [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)]], [[Morty Mole]] and [[Magmaargh]], there are no guide that contradicts the internal filename. If this page gets merged, we'll avoid the another language template. The article could be turned into a redirect or something. Also, attacks are a moot point. Enemies always have different attacks. Its appearance in this game is a cameo, and in the original country, in Japan, the bosses are not considered as characters.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' February 18, 2019, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per my thoughts last time. The only source we have insinuates they're the same, and he isn't in the guide at all. Also, he's only an individual "character" in ''Paper Mario''. In SMW2, he's just a generic Raven that's been enlarged (same species-dependent situation as most other bosses in that game).
#{{User|7feetunder}} We don't split ''[[Mario Party 4]]'''s "[[Slime Time|Big Slimes]]" from [[Salvo the Slime]], I don't see a reason to split this. There's only one in the game and its appearance is clearly referencing Raphael's fight from ''SMW2''. Since Raphael in Japan was just a "Big Raven" to begin with, this is just another Big Boo scenario.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} "But the two have the same Japanese names" is too weak of an argument to use ''by itself''. Plus, there's no other solid evidence proving that they are indeed the same thing. Just state that it bears a strong resemblance to Raphael and call it a day. Also, I think we should split [[Big Slime]] for the exception we already give to [[Spike Koopa]].
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per Toadette the Achiever.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Toadette the Achiever.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per Toadette the Achiever.

===Comments===
It is said that the guide doesn't give an unique name, but was it mentioned, as simply "Kyutyan" or no mention at all? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:43, 4 February 2019 (EST)

I think we should maybe consider emailing a Nintendo of America representative if this proposal goes nowhere, same as the one above. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 11:18, 4 February 2019 (EST)
:The internal filename is the only proof we have for this merge. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:13, 4 February 2019 (EST)
::Also, attacks '''always''' change in a return. I don't have more arguments, but i think Doc von Schmeltwick still has some. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:17, 4 February 2019 (EST)
:The internal file name acts as proof for a merge. ''Literally nothing'' acts as proof to keep split. Kamek acted as a generic enemy in both SMW2 and in YNI, and is a recurring boss in the latter. There are [[Slime|other]] [[Tap-Tap the Golden|enemy/boss]] entities in both games as well. And once again, "Raphael" being treated as a "character" in SMW2 is entirely the work of the over-the-top Woolseyisms the translators gave (for instance, "Hootie the Blue Fish" and calling the underwater Cheep Cheep "Piscatory Pete"). In the language of origin, it's just a rando Raven that's been enlarged. This is also why "Prince Froggy"'s JP name is the same as Pirate Frog's. Because that's what it ''is'', just an enemy-boss differentiation from within the same game. Enemy-boss differentiations from between games, however, don't matter. See the [[Wiggler]] and [[Big Boo]] pages, for examples. Additionally, NoA have been known for recently using us as a source, so that would more than likely be a pointless endeavor. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:22, 4 February 2019 (EST)
::[[Soarin' Stu|You]] [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia|mean]] [[Watage Pakkun|these]] examples? Yeah, admittedly, the English names we're recently taken from this wiki. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:29, 4 February 2019 (EST)
:::Mainly [[Comet Tico|these]] [[Ghost (Piranha Plant)|ones]], as they're among the most blatant. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:40, 4 February 2019 (EST)
::::The proposal failed because i opposed my own proposal. I waited to get more proofs on it to support it. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:17, 5 February 2019 (EST)
:::::@7feetunder thank you for the support! Anyways, "Block Slime" and "Big Kachikachi Special" first appear in the same game where [[Salvo the Slime]] [[Tap-Tap the Red Nose]] appear. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:54, 6 February 2019 (EST)
::::::I actually hesitate between splitting "Big Slime" or leaving it with Salvo. And for the Raven, as i said, i waited more evidences to come out to agree that it is one and the same. It '''cannot''' be coincidence. @_@ --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:26, 7 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::Why would that be split? Once again, it's not a character except for in MPA, where nearly everything is a character in the overworld. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:42, 7 February 2019 (EST)
::::::::Also, i wouldn't recommand a counterproposal to split off this Raven once again if it passes, and neither if it's to split Big Slime from Salvo the Slime. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:47, 7 February 2019 (EST)
@Toadette: I have no idea what Spike Koopa has to do with anything, but regardless, I feel like Big Kyutyan and Mega Kantera should have the same treatment. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:03, 7 February 2019 (EST)
:I was referring to 7feetunder's vote, in which he mentions [[Big Slime]]s. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 09:07, 7 February 2019 (EST)
::Spike Koopa doesn't correspond to any established subject, whereas for Big Slime, the names match up and the ''Mario Party'' series has been known to duplicate boss characters that are usually depicted as singular entities such as [[Defuse or Lose|King Bob-ombs]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:41, 7 February 2019 (EST)
:@LinkTheLefty, Mega Kantera is an entirely different case. It was likely coincidental, as the only reason it was big is because its inspiration was the [[Mega Guy]]. Also the case for [[Tetu Kantera]]. It was originally lumped with [[Big Lantern Ghost]] due to being thought it the same thing, and us not having a Japanese name at the time. It's not even a callback unlike Giant Raven. I'm pretty sure that its internal filename is a romanization of its Japanese name (correct me if i'm wrong) "Mega Kantera". --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:09, 7 February 2019 (EST)
::This is why i proposed to split both. It seems to be a similar case to the Ice Snifits more than the Raven. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:44, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:::And, i mentioned in this proposal that in the previous proposal, the oppose of my own proposal was a mistake. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::::Last time, Doc von Schmeltwick convinced me that they are the same by more evidences than just the Japanese name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:27, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::::If no one votes anymore, it is sure that this proposal would end in a tie, as the two option have equal votes. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:44, 11 February 2019 (EST)