Editing Talk:Big Fire Piranha

Does anyone else think this page is unnecessary? The details needed are already on [[Venus Fire Trap]], and there's little to no difference between this or its smaller counterpart. I move to delete the page or redirect it to Venus Fire Trap. {{User:Bop1996/sig}}

I agree. There's only two differences between them. {{User:ThePremiumYoshi/sig}} 15:45, 13 January 2012 (EST)

!!!READ!!! For Bop1996

Well you're not very right. By example, between the Piranha Plant and Super Piranha Plant or Piranhacus Gigantici, what differences are? The sigle things that makes them different is that the Super Piranha Plant or Piranhacus Gigantici are bigger than Piranha Plant.So why the articles about [[Super Piranha Plant]]s or [[Piranhacus Gigantici]]s shouldn't be deleted? [[User:Super Radio|Super Radio]] 07:14, 15 January 2012 (EST)
:The two examples you mentioned above have different behavior than their smaller counterparts, whereas all this has going for it is a larger size and some more health. {{User:Bop1996/sig}}

True, true. But [[Gargantua Koopa Troopa]]s are just big koopas. Only difference is the size and they are walking on all four legs.
[[User:SuperPaperFan|SuperPaperFan]]
:No, there's several differences and their behavior varies between several games (and even several characters, bosses, and forms), so there's not much similarity there either. {{User:Bop1996/sig}}

== OK. ==

Now im starting to question this page. It is just a big pirahna plant after all. I now personally think we should think about merging it [[User:SuperPaperFan|SuperPaperFan]]

==About this==

Why we can't keep this article anyway? What is it, they're almost like Venus Fire Traps, but are much larger and have big fireballs, is true. But I think we don't destroy this wiki with only one article added. KEEP IT!!

[[User:Super Radio|Super Radio]] 18:33, 9 March 2012 (EST)

You can keep it. It's just that they look just like Venus Fire Traps we had to question this article. [[User:SuperPaperFan|SuperPaperFan]]

==Name==
What is the source for the name {{User|Raven Effect}}

*It is conjectural, I think... -- [[File:Super-Radio.gif|35 px]][[User:Super Radio|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF0000">Super</span>]] [[User talk:Super Radio |<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:#FF0000">Radio</span>]]

I guess super pirhana plant is official since no one has said otherwise so im going to resolved this section.{{User|bowser45}}

== Piranha Flower ==

Are we sure "Piranha Flower" is a specific term for big Fire Piranha Plants? It's been used enough to refer to other Piranha Plant derivatives that I'm pretty sure it's just an alternate name for Piranha Plants in general... [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 14:43, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
:Where else has Piranha ''Flower'' been used in English materials? Directly judging from the mission title, it's obvious that the name was supposed to be "Giant Piranha Plant(s)", but for some reason the localization reinterpreted it as 'plucking' them (from what I can gather, this is before Fire Piranhas became standard, so Japanese guides refer to the normal sleeping variety as just Piranha Plants, and the Fire Piranha Plants as Huge Piranha Plants and [http://hit930.sakura.ne.jp/hitjapan/book9/P140325214.JPG Tiny Piranha Plants]). Nintendo Power's ''Super Mario 64 Player's Guide'' also suggests that Piranha Flower was intentionally meant to refer to the fire-breathing ones: it refers to the sleeping garden variety ones as "Piranha Plants" (pg. 13 [Enemies], 24, 26 & 28 [Whomp's Fortress]) and the fire-breathing ones separately as "Piranha Flowers" (pg. 108 [Tiny-Huge Island]). Granted, it ''does'' refer to the smaller ones as "tiny Piranha Flowers", but per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|naming]], the current name makes sense. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:16, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
::I seriously think that Piranha Flower was just a typo, or creative license. Really. Packun Flower is the JP name for Piranha Plants. There should really be a rule saying that only a common in-game name is used. --[[User:Hiccup|Hiccup]] ([[User talk:Hiccup|talk]]) 06:02, 16 June 2015 (EDT)

==Rename to Big Venus Fire Traps==
I suggested to rename this article to Big Venus Fire Traps, because actually I think that this name "Piranha Flower" is a bit confusing with all other species of Piranha Plant. This name really not hint about the fact that this plant spit fire. Big Venus Fire Traps is a better name for this enemy. Also, some language (japanese and french) refer the [[Piranha Plant]] as Piranha Flower (Pakkun Flower and Fleur Piranha) What do you think about it?--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  14:54, 14 July 2015 (EDT)

Which simply causes further confusion since we call Venus Fire Traps "Fire Piranha Plants" now. We should just wait until the species reappears, but for now we should keep "Piranha Flower". [[User:YoshiCookie|YoshiCookie]] ([[User talk:YoshiCookie|talk]]) 19:33, 16 July 2015 (EDT)

:If only ''NSLU'' named them, then we could see for sure if "Big Venus Fire Trap" is sticking as the new name, or just a blip, especially considering the fact that plain "Venus Fire Trap" has been replaced. However, since it's more recent and more descriptive, I feel like it'd be fine to move it to "Big Venus Fire Trap" for now, and just hope that sooner or later, a new game will give us a name that we can be confident in. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:19, 13 November 2015 (EST)
::Thanks you for the answer.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  16:30, 13 November 2015 (EST)

== SM64 and Big Piranha Plant ==

While it is true that the "Piranha Flowers" spit fire, the Japanese guides always refer to it simply as a large Piranha Plant (using names shared with [[Big Piranha Plant]]), and the genericness of the English name also hints that they are simply intended to be giant regular Piranha Plants with a twist to their abilities. Note that the smaller VFT in that game, according to JP names, is actually a ''chibi'' Fire Piranha, leaving no "normal"-sized one. Given the conspicuous lack of a "big" generic P. Plant in T-H Island despite there being ones for Goomba, Troopa (through Koopa the Quick), Cheep Cheep (Bubba), and Bob-omb (Chuckya, as it's the enemy version of Big Bob-omb), as well as the names above, it seems it is officially lumped with Big Piranha Plant, and not the NSMB series enemy. We should probably do the same. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:42, 13 January 2019 (EST)
:The small "Piranha Flowers" from ''Super Mario 64'' have a few oddities as well. Unlike the small Goomba and Koopa Troopa, it appears outside of Tiny-Huge Island (namely Bowser in the Sky). Tiny-Huge Island is, according to the Nintendo Power guide, a bit of a misnomer - Shrinker Pipes actually change ''Mario's'' size, and don't actually change which island the player is on. This means that the small "Piranha Flowers" are likely intended to be their actual size (likewise, the "small" Koopa Troopa is supposed to be Koopa the Quick, who is really giant since he is also seen at Bob-omb Battlefield). There is at least one Japanese guide that effectively calls them "[[Talk:Fire Piranha Plant#Super Mario 64 - Tiny Fire Piranha Plant.3F|Tiny Island Piranha Plants]]", which could make a distinction about the island itself rather than their perceived size. If that's not enough, there are the internal names from ''Super Mario 64 DS'': <tt>FIREPAKUN</tt> and <tt>FIREPAKUN_S</tt> for the large and small variants, respectively. I'm not sure if the Japanese guide for the Nintendo DS version simply adjusted the names of these particular enemies like the game also did to Keronpa and Yurei Mucho, but it does indicate to me that they are supposed to be Fire Pakkun at the very least (maybe not originally the case in the Nintendo 64 version, but despite the size differences, fireballs are still almost an exclusive ability of Fire Piranha Plants). So I think the current approximation is fine, but if there must be a split then I would think it belongs to the "Micro Piranha". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:42, 14 January 2019 (EST)
::While the "Mario changes size" thing matches up with how the Wiggler mission works, it leaves several inconsistencies, notably the Bubbas and Chuckya I mentioned, as well as Lakitu and Fly Guy. Anyways, if anything, it should be mentioned on both pages in some capacity, though which page gets more information needs to be decided in that case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:36, 14 January 2019 (EST)
:::Another thing I have to mention is that I made a mistake: I [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Big_Venus_Fire_Trap&diff=next&oldid=2346784 replaced] the (dead link) reference that supposedly calls it Deka Pakkun Flower, but the replacement actually states Deka Fire Pakkun, which is the more appropriate name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:32, 20 January 2019 (EST)

== Move to Big Fire Piranha Plant ==

{{TPP}}
The name "Big Fire Piranha" may be a little too odd when compared to both "Fire Piranha Plant" and "Big Piranha Plant." The good news, similar to how [[Volcano Lotus]]es are called as such according to the {{plain link|https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/world/index.html|Mario Portal}}, I humbly ask that there's a possibility to move this page to "Big Fire Piranha Plant," likened to match their name in the ''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' page {{plain link|https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/new_smb2/index.html|here}}, despite the fact that there is neither a ''[[New Super Luigi U]]'' page on the Mario Portal nor a Big Fire Piranha Plant's appearance in the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' page {{plain link|https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/wonder/index.html|there}}.

'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT

===Support: Move to "Big Fire Piranha Plant"===
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Sure, it's the most recent name.

===Oppose: Keep as "Big Fire Piranha"===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My general stance on Mario Portal: let's not override legacy names until there's a new in-game appearance corroborating it, like we did with Bomber Bill and are doing with Parachute Bob-omb. <small>(Also, I think the full name is too much of a mouthful, and there's plenty of Piranhas that cut off the "Plant" part from the name.)</small>
#{{User|Jdtendo}} The current page name comes from ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'', and per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|naming guidelines]], in-game names take priority over other sources.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: I never liked Mario Portal anyways.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all

===Comments (How hot is it?)===
@LinkTheLefty: Quick question, if your stance on Mario Portal is "let's not override legacy names until there's a new in-game appearance corroborating it" then what about the Mario Portal claiming the Ice Piranha Plants from NSMBW are the Frost Piranhas from the first Paper Mario despite the completely different names, looks and attacks? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:53, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
:I would much prefer to use the Prima name in ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' sections, but I guess the naming policy changed at some point to give priority to sites over guides. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:08, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
::Personally, if the name "Big Fire Piranha" were not mentioned in a game (see my vote), I would have prioritized the name "Big Fire Piranha Plant" from Mario Portal over the name "Big Venus Fire Trap" from the Prima guide. I highly doubt that Nintendo was still using the name "Venus Fire Trap" in 2012, even after those enemies had been renamed "Fire Piranha Plants" in ''Super Mario 3D Land''. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 14:04, March 10, 2025 (EDT)
::: Yeah, that's the thing about this proposal. Big Fire Piranha is an '''in-game''' name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:05, March 11, 2025 (EDT)
@Hewer: Big Fire Piranha is an '''in-game''' name. It automatically overrides website names. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:05, March 12, 2025 (EDT)
:[[MarioWiki:Naming|The naming policy]] should probably be clearer regarding whether a newer name from a lower-priority source takes priority over an older name from a higher-priority source (like how it currently explains that language is more important than source priority). Also, the only in-game instance of this name was in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, right? The name [[Polterpiranha|Ghost]] is not used despite having ''more'' in-game appearances. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:11, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
::<small>"Ghost" was...well, that was probably my fault for taking the ''Wii U'' trophy literally (even though it implied "Ghost Piranha"). I didn't discover "Polterpiranha" yet, and the people who made the ''Ultimate'' recordings probably just assumed we had all the answers and came up with "Ghosts". My bad.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:22, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
:::So evidently in-game doesn't necessarily mean we use it in every case. Also, in response to your vote reasoning: the game that "Big Fire Piranha" comes from doesn't actually feature any, so there's no "new in-game appearance" corroborating this name either (and 2019 is hardly "legacy"). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:46, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
::::There was [[Talk:Polterpiranha|a proposal]] that ran its course, and most people agreed to use the less fishy name. There's room in policy for [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name changes|interpreting errors]]. Don't forget that Mario Portal still hasn't fixed the existing instances of "Big Fire Piranha Plan" despite there being at least two major naming updates. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:54, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
:::::Are you suggesting that "Big Fire Piranha Plant" is a mistaken name for the enemy that is a large version of a Fire Piranha Plant? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:10, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
::::::Are you suggesting that "Big Fire Piranha" isn't already clear enough? Also, something else relevant: both [https://mariopedia.org/wiki/Big_Fire_Piranha_Plant Mariopedia] and {{fandom|mario|Big Fire Piranha Plant|Fandom}} have been using "Big Fire Piranha Plant" since before Mario Portal. So yes, actually, we might have a Ghost-like situation on our hands. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:27, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
:::::::No, I'm suggesting that "Big Fire Piranha" is the less recent of two names whose sources share similar issues with each other. How "clear" we think a name is shouldn't matter anyway, it's subjective. And while I can believe it in the Ghost case, the idea that they wouldn't have come up with the name "Big Fire Piranha Plant" for this enemy were it not used by fans on the internet first is a bit ridiculous. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:37, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
::::::::So recency is your reason. That's fair. Let's just stick with that instead of entertaining these tangents. My counter to that is: [[Big Cheep Cheep#Super Mario Bros. 3|yes]], [[Bunbun|higher]] [[Bomber Bill|priority]] [[Parabomb|historically]] [[Fat Guy|overrides]] [[Sleepy Boo|low]]-[[Monty|priority]] [[Flipswitch Panel|recency]]. You're right that the policy should be clearer. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:04, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, I am personally indifferent to which name we use: they are both attested and serviceable in my eyes, regardless of source priority in our policies. But LinkTheLefty, are you seriously suggesting it is more reasonable that the staff who translated these pages took "Big Fire Piranha Plant" from ''Mariopedia'' and the Fandom sites instead of just translating it themselves? "Big Enemy Name" is one of the most ubiquitous and straight-forward naming conventions for enemies in the mainline games. I find it significantly more probable that they just knew "this is the 'Fire Piranha Plant' and this is the 'Big' one." It is a very direct, easy, and straightforward translation that didn't require looking at any external material. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:38, March 13, 2025 (EDT)
::::::::I don't think I suggested it was "more" reasonable; it's just an observation. Compared to ''Deka Packun Flower'', "Big Fire Piranha" is the more straightforward render of ''Deka Fire Packun''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:51, March 13, 2025 (EDT)