Editing Talk:Big Blooper

== Moving to Big Blooper. ==

This page shouldn't be moved to [[Big Blooper]] because [[Mega Blooper]] is a different character. [[User:Greenpianta|Greenpianta]] ([[User talk:Greenpianta|talk]]) 13:24, February 23, 2020 (EST)
:Yeah, I agree. The two are completely different. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:30, February 23, 2020 (EST)
::See [[Talk:Big Blooper (Super Paper Mario)#Reorganizing Big Bloopers|here]]. The point is ''not'' to merge them with that, but to move that to "Big Blooper (''Super Paper Mario'')" and merge this with Super Blooper and the TTYD/SSBfWU Big Blooper, moving the result to Big Blooper, as that is its most recent name. That's why the template says "move" and not "merge." Now, since our rename template's "discuss" link is stupid and can't be made to point to another page's talk page like the merge ones can, that bit is not fixable. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:48, February 23, 2020 (EST)

== Legendary Blooper ==

Where should ''Paper Mario: The Origami King''{{'}}s [[Legendary Blooper]] fit in? It's much smaller in size than the other Big Blooper seen in the game, the one holding the sign. Plus, the Japanese script doesn't seem to give it a distinct name. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 23:57, November 11, 2020 (EST)
:I'd presume either consider it a notable member or merge it with regular Blooper since it's just the 400cm Blooper when fishing. Same goes for the [[Legendary Cheep Cheep]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:38, November 12, 2020 (EST)

==Reorganizing early ''Paper Mario'' Big Bloopers==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|4-1-1|only affects TTYD boss}}
See [[Talk:Big Blooper (Super Paper Mario)#Reorganizing Big Bloopers|here]]. The easy stuff is out of way now. The trickier question is how to handle the Bloopers from the earlier ''Paper Mario'' games. To recap:
*''Paper Mario'' - The Super Blooper is described by Goombario as a large-sized Blooper in relation to the other two Blooper bosses. Its Japanese name is also literally  「ビッグゲッソー」  (''Biggu Gessō'', Big Blooper), wherein "''Biggu''" was [[Super Mario Advance|sometimes]] applied to ordinary big-sized enemies (although more notably used for ''Yoshi's Island'' bosses, which are normally treated separately). However, given that it is shown directly spawning Blooper Babies on-screen (as opposed to ''Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix'', where they just show up as two-dimensional images from the bottom of the screen), the Super Blooper can specifically be considered a type of Blooper Nanny. As such, a big Blooper Nanny from the ''Super Mario Maker'' series can potentially be treated as a Super Blooper. So this will have two options on its own: either consider Super Blooper a Big Blooper or a big Blooper Nanny, which will affect ''Super Mario Maker'' coverage. (Note that this would necessitate changing the current identifier.)
*''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' - The Blooper boss fought by Mario is only known as a "Blooper" in this game, despite its large size. However, regular-sized Bloopers are later encountered in Bowser's underwater platforming section. Additionally, a large-sized Blooper appears in the Paper Mario stage in ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS'' and ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'', and while the whale from the first game also makes a cameo in the S.S. Flavion section, its design most closely points to this particular Blooper. In all languages, it is identified as a "Big Blooper" via tips. This will be the primary focus of the proposal. With the original game depicting two different Blooper sizes and the ''Super Smash Bros.'' depiction seemingly identifying the same subject as a Big Blooper, the big boss will be primarily covered under Big Blooper instead of Blooper, while the regular-sized Bloopers will be primarily covered in the main Blooper article.
*''Super Paper Mario'' - The original discussion included this game as a possibility. However, I've since changed my mind on including it, as this specific one is mentioned in Blooper's ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS'' trophy. I may add it for completion's sake if there's a demand for it, but I no longer stand by it and it's probably best to consider it a notable Big Blooper like the current case.
Note that the more recent [[Legendary Blooper]] from ''Paper Mario: The Origami King'' is beyond the scope of this proposal, as that best involves consistency with the game's [[Legendary Cheep Cheep]].

'''Proposer''': {{user|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 29, 2022, 23:59 GMT
===Only ''The Thousand-Year Door'' boss===
#{{user|LinkTheLefty}} - Preferred option. I honestly think this one is clear-cut.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I'm for this solely because I'm still erring to keep the "biggu" enemies separate at this juncture; I wouldn't consider Super Blooper a Blooper Nanny because it actively spawns the babies rather than just a fixed number appearing by default.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal.

===The above, and ''Paper Mario'''s Super Blooper is also a Big Blooper===
#{{user|LinkTheLefty}} - Secondary option. As noted, certain qualities tend to be mixed and matched.

===The above, and ''Paper Mario'''s Super Blooper is a big Blooper Nanny===
#{{user|LinkTheLefty}} - Tertiary option. Far from favored, but I'll accept.

===Keep as is===

===Comments===
What exactly does 'Only The Thousand-Year Door boss' mean? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:19, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
:It means that only the "Blooper" boss from ''The Thousand-Year Door'', which is noticeably a lot bigger than the Blooper enemy seen elsewhere in the game and is represented in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series as "Big Blooper", would be reorganized under Big Blooper; Super Blooper from ''Paper Mario'' would remain unaffected. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:39, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
I'd still rather go by what the game considers the subject as like with Piranha Plants/Fire Piranha Plants, but if the first option wins I think the main Blooper page should still mention the TTYD boss rather than everything only being covered on the Big Blooper page. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 18:55, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
:Of couse, the main Blooper page will still mention the game's big "Blooper" boss regardless of how the proposal passes, just the specifics/subject will be in more detail and link there instead (also, for reasons I'll get into when I get around to adding ''Super Mario 64''/''DS'' Shogakukan guide info, I'd hold that thought about Fire Piranhas for another time). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:13, March 15, 2022 (EDT)
::In case of Fire Piranha, there were cases like the MvsDK games where they come in non-fiery and fiery variants, but were all just called Piranha Plants, and we decided to keep those split. TTYD's Blooper is more on that principle. See also how we handle ''Super Mario Galaxy''{{'}}s [[big Pokey]]s. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:55, March 19, 2022 (EDT)

==Split Blooper (''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'') from Big Blooper==
{{TPP}}
Put simply, I do not understand why the Blooper boss from TTYD does not have its own page when similar bosses from PM64 and SPM have their own. I am aware of the discussion above and on [[Big Blooper (Super Paper Mario)]], and I definitely agree that the TTYD Blooper boss is a Big Blooper. However, I think it makes more sense for it to have its own page, where it is labeled as a specific Big Blooper (as in, the species section of the character infobox), and it can still be mentioned and linked to in the Big Blooper page like the other PM bosses. Having its own page would allow for a more detailed discussion on not only its boss fight mechanics (and easier access for those looking for info, especially considering the TTYD remake releasing), but its cameo in Super Smash Bros., its quotes in the game, and a gallery. It also allows for consistency between the three Paper Mario games and how these specific bosses are handled (they all have their own pages in addition to mentions here). 

To summarize: The Blooper boss from ''The Thousand-Year Door'' should have its own page, while still being linked here and considered a Big Blooper, due to it being a boss and character, and for ease of finding information on it. I additionally have sandbox pages linked below to visualize what the split could look like. 

Sandbox page for TTYD Blooper: [[User:Technetium/Blooper (Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door)]]<br>
Sandbox page for Big Blooper page after split: [[User:Technetium/Big Blooper]]<br>
Note: I am counting the Super Smash Bros. cameos to be the TTYD Blooper. If anyone thinks the page should be split but that the Smash Bros. info should stay in the Big Blooper page, let me know in the comments. 

'''Proposer''': {{user|Technetium}}<br>
'''Deadline''': July 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Technetium}} As proposer.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal. This seems better for consistency with how the other ''Paper Mario'' Bloopers are handled, and this Blooper is definitely treated as a unique character within the game.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Two separate things.

===Oppose===
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - I could see Super Blooper being merged here, but the SPM boss is explicitly a unique individual, being labeled as a "king" in the Japanese script. The TTYD boss is just treated as a Blooper who happens to be supersized.
#{{user|DryBonesBandit}} Per Doc.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} The Big Blooper page brings up most Bloopers are big whereas SPM is a unique one.

===Comments===
I'd argue the TTYD Blooper is considered more than just a Blooper, considering its prevalence in, say, the game's credits, especially so in the remake. Its fight is unique from other Big Bloopers with the two tentacles and falling off the ceiling mechanics, and I think it is important to have all the information about the boss in one location, rather than spread around in and drowned out in a larger page. The names in other languages for the tentacles also feels quite odd on this page. I feel as though it is just as notable as an individual as the SPM Big Blooper - I personally think too much emphasis is being placed on names here. From an organizational and convivence point of view, it just makes more sense to split it. I also think PM Super Blooper should stay split, too, for the same reasons. I think I could make a sandbox page for what the split would look like, which would hopefully get my thoughts out better. --[[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 17:55, July 16, 2024 (EDT)
:I also just remembered that its Tattle Log entry talks about how it has a dialect that could indicate it coming from the "western sea." The Log is clearly treating it like an individual here, not just a random Blooper, even if its name isn't unique. --[[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 18:10, July 16, 2024 (EDT)
::DDR and early ''Mario Party'' games ''also'' gave Big Bloopers clubbed tentacles, though. Which are pretty contemporary to TTYD. As for the Tattle Log, it's treating it as an individual because it's the only one Mario faces in that game. As I have stated before, we don't split the times [[Wiggler]] is treated as an individual, nor should we. This simply flows better and describes the concept more accurately and succinctly. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:06, July 16, 2024 (EDT)
:::My point is more so that it’s just as much as an individual as the SPM Blooper in my eyes even if it doesn’t have a unique name, and if that gets its own page, this one should too. Even if its appearance isn’t distinct, it still has a unique boss fight with separate stats for its tentacles that can be better explained on its own page (the alt names are especially awkward here). And much of my argument involves ease of reading for info on the boss, which I’m trying to display with the sandbox pages I’ve added. If we don’t split, we should at least merge the PM Super Blooper back here. —-[[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 19:19, July 16, 2024 (EDT)
::::Super Blooper was never merged here in the first place. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:42, July 16, 2024 (EDT)
::::: @Technetium Yeah, as Doc says, should we split Yoshi (species), Birdo and Wiggler for all the times they're treated as individuals and not a species? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:00, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

I should point out that the ''regular'' Blooper boss from ''[[Paper Mario]]'' - ''not'' the Super Blooper, the ''regular'' Blooper, the one [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg01Da7OD0E this video] begins with - is ''also'' bigger than a typical Blooper, yet we have that merged with our normal [[Blooper]] page. That actually makes it weird and inconsistent that the TTYD boss is merged to this Big Blooper page, despite sharing the same name as the other Blooper boss from the prior ''Paper Mario'' (although admittedly, the TTYD Blooper is much bigger in comparison). To make things consistent, either we could move the TTYD Blooper info to [[Blooper]], or split off both PM64 Blooper and TTYD Blooper into {{fake link|Blooper (boss)}}. {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:39, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
:PM64's Blooper is about the same size as Mario when scaled to appear as in-game, I looked through them extensively while making those idle anims. That's around the size they were in SMB and most games other than SMB3 for that matter. Also, remember, the crux of moving this info here from Blooper was the unambiguously normal Bloopers appearing as enemies in one of the Bowser segments (the basic graphical and programming data for those reappeared for the enemies in SPM). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:23, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

I'm not voting, at least not yet, but I will say that splitting the TTYD Blooper would be consistent with the current organization for Fire vs Lava Piranha, so I'm leaning towards voting for. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:35, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 ==Split Blooper (''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'') from Big Blooper==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-5|Split Blooper (''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'')}}
 Put simply, I do not understand why the Blooper boss from TTYD does not have its own page when similar bosses from PM64 and SPM have their own. I am aware of the discussion above and on [[Big Blooper (Super Paper Mario)]], and I definitely agree that the TTYD Blooper boss is a Big Blooper. However, I think it makes more sense for it to have its own page, where it is labeled as a specific Big Blooper (as in, the species section of the character infobox), and it can still be mentioned and linked to in the Big Blooper page like the other PM bosses. Having its own page would allow for a more detailed discussion on not only its boss fight mechanics (and easier access for those looking for info, especially considering the TTYD remake releasing), but its cameo in Super Smash Bros., its quotes in the game, and a gallery. It also allows for consistency between the three Paper Mario games and how these specific bosses are handled (they all have their own pages in addition to mentions here).
@@ Line 54: / Line 53: @@
 '''Proposer''': {{user|Technetium}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': <s>July 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>August 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>August 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to August 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT
+'''Deadline''': July 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 ===Support===
@@ Line 60: / Line 59: @@
 #{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal. This seems better for consistency with how the other ''Paper Mario'' Bloopers are handled, and this Blooper is definitely treated as a unique character within the game.
 #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Two separate things.
-#{{User|Blinker}} Supporting for consistency with [[Lava Piranha]].
-#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. It's a notable (and apparently recurring) Big Blooper so it should have its own page.
-#{{User|Jude da Dude}} I'm siding with you since the Bloopers from the first and third Paper Mario games have their own articles.
-#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
-#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 70: / Line 64: @@
 #{{user|DryBonesBandit}} Per Doc.
 #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} The Big Blooper page brings up most Bloopers are big whereas SPM is a unique one.
-#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I don't see this as being any more split-worthy than the ''DDR'' one.
-#{{User|Hewer}} Slightly leaning towards opposing, as I don't really get what sets apart this particular Big Blooper from the common practice of using a generic enemy species as a boss with no naming distinction, e.g. the [[Talk:Hammer Bro (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)#Merge to Hammer Bros. (mach deux)|Partners in Time Hammer Bros.]] and several appearances of [[Wiggler]] and [[Big Boo]]. I also don't really understand the proposal's reasoning that splitting this Blooper would "allow for a more detailed discussion" on it - how does keeping it merged prevent that?
 ===Comments===
@@ Line 80: / Line 72: @@
 ::::Super Blooper was never merged here in the first place. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:42, July 16, 2024 (EDT)
 ::::: @Technetium Yeah, as Doc says, should we split Yoshi (species), Birdo and Wiggler for all the times they're treated as individuals and not a species? [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:00, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
-::::Not sure where I stand on this proposal, but pointing out that [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Re-merge the Mario Party Advance "generic species representative character" articles back into their respective "species" articles|there is precedent]] for names being a deciding factor in what characters do and don't get split from their species. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:27, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
 I should point out that the ''regular'' Blooper boss from ''[[Paper Mario]]'' - ''not'' the Super Blooper, the ''regular'' Blooper, the one [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg01Da7OD0E this video] begins with - is ''also'' bigger than a typical Blooper, yet we have that merged with our normal [[Blooper]] page. That actually makes it weird and inconsistent that the TTYD boss is merged to this Big Blooper page, despite sharing the same name as the other Blooper boss from the prior ''Paper Mario'' (although admittedly, the TTYD Blooper is much bigger in comparison). To make things consistent, either we could move the TTYD Blooper info to [[Blooper]], or split off both PM64 Blooper and TTYD Blooper into {{fake link|Blooper (boss)}}. {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:39, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
 :PM64's Blooper is about the same size as Mario when scaled to appear as in-game, I looked through them extensively while making those idle anims. That's around the size they were in SMB and most games other than SMB3 for that matter. Also, remember, the crux of moving this info here from Blooper was the unambiguously normal Bloopers appearing as enemies in one of the Bowser segments (the basic graphical and programming data for those reappeared for the enemies in SPM). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:23, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
-::While I agree that your scaling of the Blooper sprites are accurate, I vehemently disagree that the first Blooper boss would be about the same size as Mario, because both your scaled sprite ''and'' the gameplay footage clearly show that even the smallest of the Blooper bosses is about ''twice'' the size of Mario, which is still quite large for a Blooper. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:32, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
-:::Well, when we're talking about a dumpy squid, where the "size" should start or stop is subject to opinion - namely, I wasn't counting the appendages. Also, worth noting is Goombario calls it "pretty unremarkable," which seems like confirmation to me it's just meant to be a standard Blooper who happens to be in the role of a boss. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:54, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
-I'm not voting, at least not yet, but I will say that splitting the TTYD Blooper would be consistent with the current organization for Fire vs Lava Piranha, so I'm leaning towards supporting. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:35, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
-In response to [[User:Hewer|Hewer]], by "more detailed discussion" I mostly mean going more in-depth on how the boss fight plays out. Theoretically, this information could be added to its section in the merged article, but once again my main reasoning behind the proposal is ease of accessing information. It would be more understandable to have an explanation of the fight with the bestiary info directly beneath, vs having to scroll for it / have information split up like that. --[[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 18:46, August 4, 2024 (EDT)
-==New TTYD Blooper article==
+I'm not voting, at least not yet, but I will say that splitting the TTYD Blooper would be consistent with the current organization for Fire vs Lava Piranha, so I'm leaning towards voting for. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:35, July 17, 2024 (EDT)
-I've spent some time creating an article exclusively for the big Blooper from Thousand-Year Door [[User:Jude da Dude/Blooper (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|right here]], and I DEMAND that it be its own article since the Paper Mario and Super Paper Mario Bloopers each have one of their own! -[[User:Jude da Dude]]
-:Looks nice, if you want the article you should probably vote above too though (not entirely sure why this is its own section if it’s related to the proposal). [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 22:15, August 14, 2024 (EDT)