Editing Talk:Beezley

==Merge Bee (Wario Land II) here==
{{TPP}}

While both of these enemies have different Japanese and English names, both look nearly the same, are in the same series, and act nearly the same, (not to mention bee's English name is generic). This just seems to be the same enemy being renamed and receiving slight tweaks to its design.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doomhiker}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 1, 2020, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal. Beezleys and ''Wario Land II'' bees are identical in everything but name.
#{{user|Shokora}} &ndash; https://i.imgur.com/R1V9N4x.png Per proposal. Unlike the other examples Doc gave (and I don't associate the giant bee at all), this enemy has an identical design even though it has been carried over to the next console. It functions the same, its attack has the same transformation effect on the player, and we can reasonably assume that it was intended to be the same enemy.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Sure, and while we're at it, let's merge [[Bucket Head]] with [[Yukimaru]], [[Watch]] with [[Bird (enemy)|Bird]], [[Cook]] with [[Doughnuteer]], [[Ukiwani]] with [[Tobawani]], [[Big Mouth]] with [[Utsuboankō]], [[Bōtsu]] with [[Lava Bubble]], [[Togemaru]] with [[Togemen]], and [[Kobatto]] with [[Minicula]]! What I'm saying is there's a ''lot'' of "suspiciously similar substitution" in this series, and treating things as the same based on behavior and subjectively appearance alone (particularly when [[Giant bee|the only even remotely high-resolution version of the former]] looks significantly different) is ill-advised at best. Additionally, no other enemy in the game returns from a previous game (aside from ''potentially'' [[Denki]], which is an obstacle), making this seem even more speculative (if not outright fanon).
#{{User|Niiue}} Per Doc.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per Doc.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Changing my vote per the opposition's arguments.
#{{User|Benjaminkirsc}} Per Doc.
#{{User|DarkNight}} Per Doc.
#{{User|ChompworksEngineer}} Per Doc.

===Comments===
You're absolutely certain this isn't the same case as [[Goomba]] and [[Goombo]]? {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 16:56, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
:Yes. First, bee's English name is generic, which is not the case for Goombos. Second, Goombos' design are more different from Goombas than bees are different from Beezlies. Finally, Nintendo Power apparently refered to Goombos as relatives of Goombas. I don't know if this is the case for bees. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 17:01, September 17, 2020 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick: The enemy pairs you mention have a few quirks that differentiate between them, such as [[Big Mouth]] being stunnable unlike [[Utsuboankō]], or [[Bōtsu]] being indestructible while [[Lava Bubble]]s are vulnerable to certain attacks. Even non-functional character design changes can be enough to make a distinction between two species, such as [[Cook]] and [[Doughnuteer]], [[Goomba]] and [[Goombo]], or [[Neek]] and [[Sneek]]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:25, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
:Lava Bubble had only been destroyable through Super Stars when Botsu appeared. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that in the case of the bees, the former's boss-version sprite and the latter's artwork show significantly more difference than the small, non-detailed sprites, and the distinct lack of any other returning enemies makes this seem WAY too big of a "what if" for comfort. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:42, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
::The Lava Bubble's vulnerability to Super Stars and appearance are enough to make them separate from Botsu. To address the bee conundrum, I'm not sure what the giant bee boss has to do with all this; it's easily distinguishable from the "minion" bees in both appearance, attack pattern, and the number of hits it takes to destroy. The ''Wario Land 4'' beezleys, on the other hand, are pretty much identical; the only different features of "both" species are their names and the fact that one drops a coin when defeated, which is a trait that was removed in all condition-inducing enemies in ''Wario Land 4'' including Beezleys. Think how Goombas do drop coins in some games while in others they only award points. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 21:00, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
:::The Bee boss has to do with the fact that nothing suggests it is anything but a giant, stronger version of the normal bees (akin to the Giant Spear Man), and as such is more telling of the design than a 16x32 pixel sprite. As for Botsu, it looks just like the many eyeless depictions of Lava Bubble (which continued after WL), and I'm pretty sure the stars and it are not even found in the same area. Regardless, given the fact that the Botsu article's current state is the result of me [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=B%C5%8Dtsu&type=revision&diff=2263446&oldid=2215155 hastily rewriting it] due to it previously covering the wrong subject, it may very well ''be'' vulnerable to that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:14, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
::::Sprite size and general enemy recurrence are irrelevant to this discussion, the giant bee boss itself even more so since it's a largely different beast altogether. The design and attack pattern of Beezleys are too similar to their ''Wario Land II'' counterparts not to suggest the enemy was simply carried over to ''Wario Land 4''. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:40, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
:::::My point is there's no detail to it so saying they look identical to Beezley is misleading...besides, said attack pattern is also shared with Pneumo/Jellybob, which is ''obviously'' different. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:43, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
::::::The sprites of both bees and Beezleys have enough detail in them to allow us to invoke similarities between them--upright postures with a sting at the bottom, cockatiel-like beaks, flat feet, neutral and angry expressions told by eyes with roughly the same shape. The Jellybobs from ''Wario Land 3'' act as a functional replacement to the bees from ''Wario Land II'', in the same vein Kobbles replace Klomps in ''DKC3''. If Klomps were to reappear in ''DKCR'' as "Klompzleys" but retaining their appearance from ''DKC2'', there would be no doubt they were the same enemy. This scenario happened with Beezleys, who were simply tossed away in favour of a similar enemy in one game but brought back in a later installment of the same series. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:57, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::It's still speculation, though. Unless any specific instance of a guide saying this enemy appeared before is found or one of the JP guides we currently source turns out to be unlicensed, it seems to me more like at most an amusingly lazy replacement. (On a related note, I'd be less skeptical if the JP names were reversed, since the WL2 JP name is more descriptive while the WL4 one is lazier). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:07, September 17, 2020 (EDT)
:::::::Actually, the JP name may have actual meaning: the article says that in one area, they transform from spiked balls. Perhaps they are hatching? That's still something Bubble Bee couldn't do. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:30, September 18, 2020 (EDT)

@Shokora: I'm refraining from voting in the proposal for now since I want to check which name is used in ''Wario Land II'''s Shogakukan guide (which should actually replace existing Japanese name references because I was told the current one is unofficial, just didn't get around to it yet), though I did notice that the giant bee's name is different from what was stated. Presuming that ''Pukubachi'' is accurate - what makes this situation different from, say, Gordo/Unibō/Sea Urchin? Also, is there any sign from the official ''Wario Land Advance'' guides that ''Hacchi'' is a returning enemy? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:16, September 21, 2020 (EDT)
:Update - ''Wario Land II'''s Shogakukan guide does indeed refer to it as ''Pukubachi''. That said, ''Hacchi'' is rather unique among ''Wario Land'' series enemies with older counterparts. For example, Minicula's counterclockwise pattern is ripped straight from Kobatto (which in turn is ripped from the main pattern of the ''Wario Land II'' ghost enemy), yet they have different enough designs to be considered different. Beezley's sprite and behavior is very close to the original bee that I doubt its coincidental, with the only real difference being that it interacts with flowers. As for the giant bee boss, I'm not sure I take that it simply represents a larger version of the bee enemy, since it has an alternate name that isn't just its size <small>and on a side note, we [[Talk:Ghost (Wario Land II boss)#Generic|may]] have to make a separate [[Talk:Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins#Decide if unlocalized Super Mario Land 2 enemies should use Japanese or generic names|SML2]]-style proposal regarding ''Wario Land II'' and perhaps ''Wario Land 3'' enemies</small>. Also, consider that the bee enemy sprite was altered - in the original Game Boy version, its stripes were less detailed and don't match the shading of the giant bee boss or its mini minions, while in the Game Boy Color version, the bee's gray (including its head) was turned to black. Additional, the ''Wario Land 4'' source name is <tt>Azako_hati</tt>. So I think there are multiple ways to read it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:09, October 1, 2020 (EDT)

====Shokora raises a good point I was meaning to bring up====
The bees use an identical design retaining several key features (such as the spear stinger, the beaked mouth, white circles for hands, large eyes), which along with Doomhiker's arguments, is ultimately the reason I supported and kept my support, unlike the other enemies Doc had listed that she suggested to be merged, which all have different designs (Cook and Doughnuteer look a bit ambiguous though). I also agree with Koopa Con Carne's comments too, pretty much saying all what we are. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:01, September 18, 2020 (EDT)
:I know they are nearly identical, but the fact remains we don't ''know for a definitive fact'' they are ''the'' same entity due to how often pointless changeovers happened in this series. And I ''still'' think that ignoring the detail of the enlarged version of the former and how it contrasts with the artwork of the latter is a shortsighted thing to do; after all, Goombo's tiny SML sprite looks nearly identical to Mugger Micro-Goomba's SMB3 sprite with different shading, and heck the former's art looks similar to the latter's abnormal appearance in SMG, but we still know these to be different (and on a related note, the JP names of both of those indicate it's a smaller version of Goomba). But I digress. My point is, if we don't know it for a fact, we should not treat it as one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:41, September 18, 2020 (EDT)