Editing Talk:Bee

Can we move/split this to [[Honeybee]]? Look at this screenshot:
[[File:SMG2 Letter Honeybee.png|thumb|none|500px]]
The name Honeybee is official. {{User:SWFlash/Sig}}
::Is Honeybee just one character or the official name for the entire race? In any case I definately do agree that the Bees of Mario Galaxy need to have there own page, since they are a specific species just like all the other bee-like enemies mentioned here, who already have their own pages as well as a mention here. This article is still good in my opinion though, but just as one that directs us to a wide range of different species inspired by a real-world creature.--[[User:Goomboy|Goomboy]] 11:58, 3 February 2012 (EST)

I think we should split the smg bees too
{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:The thing with the screen shot is that it doesn't say if that's from the entire species or just one bee whose named Honeybee now if it were to say from the Honeybees then yes we would split/rename them {{User|Raven Effect}}

== Bee Quote ==

The Bee Quote is 

{{quote|Welcome to the [[Honeyhive Galaxy|Honeyhive Kingdom]]! [[Queen Bee|Our queen]] rules this land.|Bee|Super Mario Galaxy}}

Can we change this because it is the same quote as the [[Honeyhive Galaxy]] quote. We don't want replica quotes, right?

-{{User:Daisyluigi345/sig}}

:That's true, though the quote is meant to characterize the personality of the species or character. I personally think it's better than any of the "humorous" quotes because they don't really mean anything to the bees; any character could have said that. I suppose this quote will suffice for now, though I will try to look for better options. [[User:MarioComix|MarioComix]] ([[User talk:MarioComix|talk]]) 22:43, 4 March 2014 (EST)

Thank you for your opinion. I have seen the new quote, and like it.

-{{User:Daisyluigi345/sig}}

== Split? ==

Pretty sure the enemy bees and ''SMG'' bees should have their own articles, seeing as how they're only identical by generic name. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 23:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Quite a few of these Bees (Yoshi's Story, Mario & Luigi, Super Mario Galaxy) could stand to be split, and this article could be used for the generic ones like Super Mario Sunshine and Sm4sh. {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
::I don't think the M&L ones deserve a split, since from what I can tell, they aren't separate enemies, just glorified projectiles. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 12:42, 12 January 2016 (EST)

==Split Bee (''Yoshi's Story'') and Bee (''Super Mario Galaxy'')==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-5}}
For some reason, this page is essentially just a list of bees in the ''Mario'' series. Because of this, the bee NPCs in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and the bee enemies from ''Yoshi's Story'' are on this page, even though they have nothing to do with each other or generic real-world bees, any more than they have to do with [[Beezley]]s or [[Zinger]]s. Sure, they don't have unique names, but neither do [[Bee (Wario Land II)|Bees]] and we have those split.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Niiue}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 14, 2016, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.

====Oppose====
#{{User|Walkazo}} - The only one I'd consider would be the anthropomorphic ''SMG'' Bees, but I really fail to see how the ''SMS''' and ''YS'' subjects are anything more than generic, swarming, stinging bees. [[Bee (Wario Land II)]] has a specific purpose to turn Wario into [[Puffy Wario]], plus it has a unique Japanese name to help justify the split, but that's not the case here. It's simpler to just keep all the info in one place rather than splitting hairs and content alike, and then risk getting the gutted central article deleted per [[MarioWiki:Generic subjects]].
#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per Walkazo. I would support if it was only for the Super Mario Galaxy's bees. Create a page for SMG's bees is better and let the others bees here.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Well, yeah, this is a list of generic bees because generic subjects don't need separate individual articles for every time they occur. I don't see exactly why they need to be split, especially when you could apply the same logic to [[Butterfly]], [[Chicken]] (the ''Mario Golf'' and ''Mario Party'' variants?), [[Crow]], etc. Rule of thumb: recurring generic species ''should'' get an article that lists them; otherwise, they should be named with an identifier if the generic species appear twice. Exceptions apply. Also, why stop at animals? Why not split [[Barrel]], [[Soccer Ball]], and [[Banana]] by function and game appearance as well?
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} I'm shocked no one wants to split this up. Past experience editing for MarioWiki, people want to split up everything into something potentially stub-like. I'll still oppose because I hate it when we split things up that don't need to be split. Consider this vote stub prevention.

====Comments====
In the Super Mario Galaxy games, the name of this species wasn't "Honeybee"? Implied by the image shown above.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 12:56, 31 January 2016 (EST)
:Some users are saying that "well, we don't know if that's an individual or a species name" but I think that is looking way too far into it. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:44, 31 January 2016 (EST)
::In addition, the use of the plural instead of the singular form in the letter, and if it was in the singular, it would be easier to whether or not it is a character or the name of the species. But the use of the plural and the supposed character that makes no distinct appearance may assume that this is the name of the species. Maybe It's too much interpretation.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}} 15:57, 31 January 2016 (EST)

@Walkazo: I can accept the ''SMS'' ones as being generic (seeing as how they don't have a unique design), but the ''Yoshi's Story'' bees are definitely deserving of their own article. As I said before, the only reason they're not split is because they didn't get a unique, "Mario-sounding" name.

@Bazooka Mario: Butterflies don't really act all that different in games they appear in (they supposedly attack you in ''Super Mario 64'', but I haven't been able to find proof of it). Chickens are sort of iffy, since splitting them based on their ''Mario Party'' appearance could lead to splitting a ton of "variants" of recurring enemies. I actually plan to make a proposal to split ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon'' crows seeing as how they're about as deserving of a page as [[Bat (ghost)|ghost bats]]. As for the various inanimate objects, barrels usually don't act that different between games (unless I missed something, which is entirely possible), and soccer balls only really change in appearance, not function. As for bananas, I actually made a proposal a while back to split the ones that function differently, which failed. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 16:57, 31 January 2016 (EST)

:Many things in ''Yoshi Story'' were given unique aesthetics. Like [[Blargg]]s, [[Spiked Fun Guy]]s and Gabon/[[Spike]]s. Lots of other enemies get different appearances in different games; when there's no significant behavioural changes and/or unique names to go with it, there's not enough cause to split. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 17:12, 31 January 2016 (EST)
::Good point. Though I think there's more cause to split with the fact that there are apparently two sizes of the ''YS'' bees, which act differently. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 17:18, 31 January 2016 (EST)

:Yes, they all do the same thing, but the entities you want to split aren't drastically different from each other, behaving like normal bees. The sentient ones could use their own article perhaps, but the ones you propose, I don't agree. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:38, 31 January 2016 (EST)

Removed the mention of ''SMS'' bees since those are pretty much normal bees. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:27, 31 January 2016 (EST)
:Still on the oppose side. Per all reason stated here on the comments and on the opposition why Yoshi's Story's bee should not be separate from here. The only one I support splitting are the honeybee from Super Mario Galaxy which I already stated on my vote.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  22:34, 31 January 2016 (EST)
Also, Wildgoosespeeder, short articles aren't stubs. Stubs are articles lacking information. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:32, 31 January 2016 (EST)

==Split the Super Mario Galaxy bees from this article==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|11-0}}
There are two vastly different subjects being covered in the same article. One is a sentient species that often helps Mario and has distinct members, and the other is the real world animal that appears in many forms but is near-consistently an enemy. There are some distinct differences here, and they should be plainly obvious. I still find it ludicrous that [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/0/0c/20161230070940%21SSB4_Beehive_Bees.jpg this] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/3/3e/Bee_Artwork_-_Super_Mario_Galaxy.png this] are treated as if they're one and the same. Do you think our readers think the same, and click on this article expecting to see all of these different kinds of Bees? I sincerely doubt it. However, the SMG Honeybees are obviously based on real bees, so it makes sense that they'd be in the same article, just as [[Doogan]]s and [[Nintendog]]s are merged with [[Dog]], and [[Pig]]s and [[Li'l Oink]]s are treated as the same thing, right? Wait a minute, they all have separate articles! Why do these gets lumped together, then?

For the sake of consistency, ease of access, and sheer logic, I want to split them.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 24, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Split===
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per my proposal.
#{{User|Alex95}} [[Honeybee]] is the official name for the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' bees.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
#{{User|Supermariofan67}} Per all.
#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} Per all.
#{{User|MarioComix}} Per all.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per General Subject guidelines, and all.

===Don't split===

===Comments===
The name [[Honeybee]] is official as per the very top comment of this page, so the way I see it, this proposal isn't needed. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:26, 10 August 2017 (EDT)
:There's the proposal up above which voted not to split them. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 19:29, 10 August 2017 (EDT)
::Figured since Honeybee is the official name, a proposal isn't needed, but I'll vote to overturn the previous proposal. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:31, 10 August 2017 (EDT)

== Split Yoshi's Story Bee: Attempt 2 ==
{{TPP}}
There was an attempt to split Yoshi's Story bees. First of all, they have a non-generic Japanese name. Second, there [[Frog|there]] [[Jellyfish|are]] [[Clam|other]] enemies based off of real world animals, but these have a non-generic Japanese name.
I may have missed some points, but you'd add more points about it. Anyone has the Sunshine bee Japanese name? The Yoshi's Story bees being merged here seems pretty bzzzzzzzaffling to me. It' for the big ones.
<br>'''Proposer:'''{{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br>
'''Deadline:'''February, 1, 2019, 23:59 GMT
===Support===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} It's as cleared up as it's gonna get, so let's split both large and small into one article.
#{{User|7feetunder}} All of the ''YS'' enemies with generic names in English have non-generic Japanese names. They were never meant to be generic at all. There is no reason we should be giving more authority to the people who call Gnawties "Beavers" and Neckies "Buzzards." We might as well merge [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)]] with [[Bat (Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon)]] because they're both bats. [[Bee (Wario Land II)]] is split for a reason, this should not be any different.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all, the fact that they have a different non-generic Japanese means that they are intended to be unique non-generic enemies from their original creators.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} "But different Japanese names" is still not a convincing reason for me to support splitting.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Bazooka Mario.

===Comments===
I assume you're just referring to the big ones? I'd like to know what the Shogakukan description of them says. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:33, 18 January 2019 (EST)
:If "Bunbun" also applies to the small ones, then possibly. But i think it only applies to the big ones seeing that their artwork depicts the big one. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:36, 18 January 2019 (EST)
::Well the small ones are literally white dots that form a hand shape. Hard to depict that efficiently. Anyways, ask LTL about what their entry says. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:06, 18 January 2019 (EST)
:::He'd take time to answer though, the proposal would have already passed when i'd have asked him. I am patient though. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:52, 19 January 2019 (EST)
::::Anyways, if it only applies to the big ones, i think the Yoshi's Story identifier is redudant IMO. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:10, 19 January 2019 (EST)

I ''used'' to have the Sunshine Bee Japanese name, as there was a full scan of the shoga on ImGur, but unfortunately, only one pair of enemy pages there is still accessible, and neither one is the one with them on it. They ''have'' a section (with artwork!) though.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:35, 20 January 2019 (EST)
:I'd likely ask Mister Wu for those. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:16, 20 January 2019 (EST)
::Done, along with the SM3DW Fuzzy Horde. I don't think it will be Bunbun. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:59, 20 January 2019 (EST)
:::Description is the small one, but the artwork is for the big one. Let's say both? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:28, 21 January 2019 (EST)
::::Could be just the small ones, given how that'd be pretty much impossible to represent. Desci might actually refer to both. Yes, let's say both. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:37, 21 January 2019 (EST)
:::::The text is <span class="explain" title="だいぐん">大群</span>でやってくるのが<span class="explain" title="こま">困</span>りもの。うるさい、うるさい。According to LinkTheLefty, it translates to: A swarm in the way is a pest. Pesky, pesky. Although, the big ones don't try to harm Yoshi, he'll get stung if he touches them from the sides. I think there is only one entry for bees. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:13, 21 January 2019 (EST) --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:39, 21 January 2019 (EST)
::::::I know fully well it says that. The larger ones are still in groups, just smaller groups.
::::::@Baz How about the "holding Yoshi in place by forming a weird hand shape" thing? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:38, 21 January 2019 (EST)
:::::::@Bazooka Mario and @TheFlameChomp, it's less "because different name in Japanese" and more because non-generic Japanese name, much like the frogs. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:04, 22 January 2019 (EST)
::::::::To clarify, while sometimes i agree that the Japanese names [[Spear Guy#Names in other languages|are]] [[Relay Heihō#Names in other languages|a]] [[Bouncing Bullet Bill#Names in other languages|moot]] [[Sledge Bro.#Names in other languages|point]], the enemies based off animals in this game don't have a generic Japanese name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:53, 24 January 2019 (EST)
:::::::::It is not a good idea to apply blanket changes based on Japanese names. Sometimes, the localizers make a good call too, and our wiki has English readers, not Japanese readers. This whole "Creator's intent" is a substance less argument and just handwaves potential deliberate localization changed and it just doesn't really align with our wiki goals of prioritizing English names. Yeah, the bee will get an identifier, but this is at our expense of the bee article and we also make a small page that might be just an additional step, all over some name being different in a foreign language. Whenever Japanese names should be applicable to splits and merges has always been case by case; that Bee from Wario Land gets a split for unique gameplay function, being a transformation. This, this is just a generic bee in the end. This proposal hasn't made a single argument for splitting beyond different Japanese names, but in my experience, this went against precedent, and so that's why I oppose. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:16, 24 January 2019 (EST)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==Honeybee==
 Can we move/split this to [[Honeybee]]? Look at this screenshot:
 [[File:SMG2 Letter Honeybee.png|thumb|none|500px]]
@@ Line 32: / Line 31: @@
 ==Split Bee (''Yoshi's Story'') and Bee (''Super Mario Galaxy'')==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-5}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-5}}
 For some reason, this page is essentially just a list of bees in the ''Mario'' series. Because of this, the bee NPCs in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and the bee enemies from ''Yoshi's Story'' are on this page, even though they have nothing to do with each other or generic real-world bees, any more than they have to do with [[Beezley]]s or [[Zinger]]s. Sure, they don't have unique names, but neither do [[Bee (Wario Land II)|Bees]] and we have those split.
@@ Line 68: / Line 67: @@
 ==Split the Super Mario Galaxy bees from this article==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|11-0}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|11-0}}
 There are two vastly different subjects being covered in the same article. One is a sentient species that often helps Mario and has distinct members, and the other is the real world animal that appears in many forms but is near-consistently an enemy. There are some distinct differences here, and they should be plainly obvious. I still find it ludicrous that [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/0/0c/20161230070940%21SSB4_Beehive_Bees.jpg this] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/3/3e/Bee_Artwork_-_Super_Mario_Galaxy.png this] are treated as if they're one and the same. Do you think our readers think the same, and click on this article expecting to see all of these different kinds of Bees? I sincerely doubt it. However, the SMG Honeybees are obviously based on real bees, so it makes sense that they'd be in the same article, just as [[Doogan]]s and [[Nintendog]]s are merged with [[Dog]], and [[Pig]]s and [[Li'l Oink]]s are treated as the same thing, right? Wait a minute, they all have separate articles! Why do these gets lumped together, then?
@@ Line 98: / Line 97: @@
 == Split Yoshi's Story Bee: Attempt 2 ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|5-2|split}}
 There was an attempt to split Yoshi's Story bees. First of all, they have a non-generic Japanese name. Second, there [[Frog|there]] [[Jellyfish|are]] [[Clam|other]] enemies based off of real world animals, but these have a non-generic Japanese name.
 I may have missed some points, but you'd add more points about it. Anyone has the Sunshine bee Japanese name? The Yoshi's Story bees being merged here seems pretty bzzzzzzzaffling to me. It' for the big ones.
@@ Line 112: / Line 110: @@
 ===Oppose===
-#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} "But different Japanese names" is still not a convincing reason for me to support splitting. Also, per comments below, this proposal is just going to blanket split everything when it's quite clear that only the big ones probably need to be split if we're going by Japanese names.
+#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} "But different Japanese names" is still not a convincing reason for me to support splitting.
 #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Bazooka Mario.
@@ Line 133: / Line 131: @@
 ::::::::To clarify, while sometimes i agree that the Japanese names [[Spear Guy#Names in other languages|are]] [[Relay Heihō#Names in other languages|a]] [[Bouncing Bullet Bill#Names in other languages|moot]] [[Sledge Bro.#Names in other languages|point]], the enemies based off animals in this game don't have a generic Japanese name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:53, 24 January 2019 (EST)
 :::::::::It is not a good idea to apply blanket changes based on Japanese names. Sometimes, the localizers make a good call too, and our wiki has English readers, not Japanese readers. This whole "Creator's intent" is a substance less argument and just handwaves potential deliberate localization changed and it just doesn't really align with our wiki goals of prioritizing English names. Yeah, the bee will get an identifier, but this is at our expense of the bee article and we also make a small page that might be just an additional step, all over some name being different in a foreign language. Whenever Japanese names should be applicable to splits and merges has always been case by case; that Bee from Wario Land gets a split for unique gameplay function, being a transformation. This, this is just a generic bee in the end. This proposal hasn't made a single argument for splitting beyond different Japanese names, but in my experience, this went against precedent, and so that's why I oppose. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:16, 24 January 2019 (EST)
-::::::::::Admittedly, originally, the wiki relied on localizer's intent, but was later then changed to the creator's intent. You are allowed to vote what seems to be the most appropriate option for you though. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:40, 25 January 2019 (EST)
-[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:FanOfYoshi&curid=258892&diff=2590117&oldid=2589697 Update on this situation]; it should indeed only bee the large buns that should buzz off. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:18, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-:This raises an important question: Does the English name refer to both bees or just the small ones? It comes from a Prima guide, and only one page is cited. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 22:59, 26 January 2019 (EST)
-::Then the small ones are generic, and shouldn't be split. I kinda feel the "Yoshi's Story" identifier is redudant, as there are 2 different types of bees in this game. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:36, 27 January 2019 (EST)
-== The "Comparable" Species Section ==
-I'm curious as to why all those "comparable" species on the page are only comparable. This page is about the real-world species, right? And if all those comparable species are varieties of bees, then how are they just "comparable" if they are derived from the real-world species? And, another question, how is the ''Yoshi's Story'' [[Bumblebee]] the only variant of the real-world species, if it's the same exact case as all the other "comparable" species? [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 12:42, June 2, 2022 (EDT)
-:Probably a relic of when that was "related." It should probably be changed to "relatives." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:50, June 2, 2022 (EDT)