Editing Talk:Bad Luck Space

==Split?==
The suggestion to split Extra Bad Luck Space from this page has been here for a while now. However, such a split can only be decided by a proposal at this point, but I'm starting a discussion on it anyway to see if this can be resolved without one, or if anyone wants to finally go ahead with it. I personally don't see a need to split them. Many of the Extra Bad Luck events are just worse versions of Bad Luck events, and even some of the regular Bad Luck events can still appear on the Extra Bad Luck Space anyway. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:23, May 30, 2020 (EDT)
:I disagree splitting. They both essentially function the same way, only the Extra Bad Luck Space is even worse. &ndash; [[User:Owencrazyboy9|Owencrazyboy9]] ([[User talk:Owencrazyboy9|talk]]) 23:31, May 30, 2020 (EDT)
Though, I prefer not to split the article, I still see it as the same thing as the [[Unlucky Space]]. But, you guys see it as a successor to the Bowser Space. Remember this, I am the one who recognized the spaces in Mario Party 5's Card Party mini-game [[Green Spaces]]. --[[User:Partier|Partier]] ([[User talk:Partier|talk]]) 16:43, October 19, 2020 (EDT)

== Remerge with [[Unlucky Space]], take two ==

{{TPP}}
I know this has been split via [[Talk:Unlucky Space#Split Bad Luck Space and Extra Bad Luck Space|a proposal]] and [[Talk:Unlucky Space#Reverse the earlier proposal to Split the Bad Luck Space and Extra Bad Luck Space|one]], but I feel like some of the claims supporting the split and opposing the original remerge are a bit invalid, with many saying that these spaces having a "different name" and "different function" were enough to split it/keep them split. However, this isn't true for most other spaces. I can bring up some common claims and debunk them:

*'''Different function''': This is the biggest reason why this page was split, as the Bad Luck Space functions similarly to [[Bowser Space]]s compared to Unlucky Spaces. However, I feel like this claim is invalid. As {{user|Partier}} pointed out, they are still the opposite of [[Lucky Space]]s, regardless of function. Moreover, since the last proposal failed, ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' came out, and their Unlucky Spaces also serve similar to Bad Luck Spaces, despite Bowser Spaces also appearing. Yes, Bad Luck Spaces are more intense than Unlucky Spaces, and even more so for Extra Bad Luck spaces, but Bad Luck Spaces and ''Jamboree'' Unlucky Spaces serve the same purpose aside from the options on the roulette.

:Speaking of Bowser Spaces, each space can have a wildly different function per game. Using the aftermentioned Bowser Space for example, while most {{id|MP|series}} games have a roulette spin to determine a usually negative effect on the player, ''[[Mario Party 8]]'' changes this by having Bowser do board-specific events that either take place immediately or when a player reaches him, with a set event that isn't determined by a roulette and only changes from its original form if the player that encounters or reaches Bowser doesn't have what he wants. Same with the Lucky Space, whose effect drastically changes between games. Even the Unlucky Space has different effects between games and even boards. And don't even get me started on the [[Minigame Space]]...

*'''Different name''': The name is different from Unlucky Spaces, yes, but it's not uncommon to see spaces get renames, like [[Blue Space]]s, [[Red Space]]s, and [[Green Space]]s - oh, wait. The other [[Event Space|Green Spaces]]. An argument that they also share different Japanese names is valid, but between games, Event Spaces also share different Japanese names. "Bad Luck" is very similar to "Unlucky", and it is implied that they mean the same thing. Even spaces that share the same English name can share different Japanese names between games, like the Lucky Space, which changed Japanese names in ''[[Mario Party 10]]'' despite retaining the original English name.

*'''Change via [[Last Five Turns Event|event]]''': Yes, Bad Luck Spaces do turn into Extra Bad Luck Spaces with more intense effects, but this, while rarer, does occur with other spaces (Blue Spaces and Red Spaces double their effect in the Nintendo 64 games, and they can double or triple their effect in the Nintendo GameCube games if chosen via roulette, Red Spaces can turn into Bowser Spaces in ''[[Mario Party 5]]'' and ''Mario Party 10'', [[Bowser Time]] turning bridges into his own with Bowser Spaces in ''[[Mario Party 7]]'', and Bowser Jr. making [[Bowser Jr. Space]]s in ''Mario Party 10''). This also isn't just limited to events; if Bowser is freed in ''Mario Party 10'', he adds Bowser Spaces to the board.

*'''Different appearance''': Yes, the Bad Luck Space does look different than the Unlucky Space, but again, it isn't uncommon for spaces to change appearance between games. Not just small, subtle changes like the Bowser Space, but some spaces change appearance entirely. The Lucky Space used to be represented by a musical note, then en exclamation mark, and currently is a clover. The [[Battle Space]] is by far the best example of this; it has a different appearance ''every game'' (barring the PAL version of ''[[Mario Party 6]]''{{'}}s Battle Spaces matching ''[[Mario Party 2]]''{{'}}s).

I also know that there are different spaces that serve similar or identical functions to one another that also have their own pages (Bowser Spaces to [[Koopa Kid Space]]s, Bowser Jr. Spaces in ''Mario Party 10'', and Unlucky Spaces in ''Super Mario Party Jamboree''), but I feel like a valid reason they should remain split is because aside from the fact that they have vastly different names (usually a character affiliated with Bowser) and different appearances (same case as before), the three spaces analogous to Bowser Spaces also appear ''alongside'' Bowser Spaces, showing that they are not a replacement for them, but rather spaces that are less intense than Bowser Spaces but serve an otherwise identical purpose.

With that said, I feel like the Bad Luck Space should be remerged into the Unlucky Space. However, because of the case above where I described spaces that perform similar events but with different intensities being in the same game, I will also add an option to leave the Extra Bad Luck Space alone, like the Bowser-affiliated spaces above (even though they also serve a similar purpose and are less intense, they are also distinct from Bowser Spaces). I am unsure about merging the Extra Bad Luck Space into the Bowser Space, though, as the space isn't affiliated with Bowser or [[Impostor Bowser]].

'''Proposer''': {{User|Altendo}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT

====Merge Bad Luck Space and Extra Bad Luck Space into Unlucky Space====
#{{User|Altendo}} Second choice. Extra Bad Luck Spaces are just Bad Luck Spaces but are more intense, like with Blue Spaces and Red Spaces. 
====Merge Bad Luck Space into Unlucky Space but split Extra Bad Luck Space into a separate page====
#{{User|Altendo}} First choice. Makes sense to do this if Koopa Kid Spaces, Bowser Jr. Spaces, and especially Unlucky Spaces remain distinct from Bowser Spaces.
====Split Extra Bad Luck Space====
#{{User|Altendo}} Third choice. I mean, if the intensity of the effects are enough to keep this page separate from the others, and same with the Bowser analogous spaces, I don't see why the Extra Bad Luck Space should be part of this, either.
#{{User|Hewer}} I feel like this is more of a separate variant of the Bad Luck Space.
#{{User|Sorbetti}} Now that this option has been added, I will use it as my first choice.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} per all. I didn't fully take into account what the proposal was about when i first voted

====Do nothing====
<s>#{{User|Sorbetti}} Although both are going for something similar, they still have their differences, I don't see why they should be merged.</s>
#{{User|Hewer}} I see where this proposal is coming from but I'm leaning more towards this being of a case of "[[Talk:Grab Block#Merge White Block with Grab Block 2|similar but not the same]]". I might support an option to only split Extra Bad Luck Space.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: Let's see: Different Japanese names, different effects...I think not.
#{{User|Yoshi18}} The way it works now, with extra Bad Luck spaces as sub-chapters seems better and more logical to me.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
<s>#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} per all</s>

====Unlucky comments====
The fact that the spaces have different Japanese names and even different effects (The Unlucky Space in Jamboree doesn't have the move the Star or Double the Star's cost effects) is a pretty big indication of why they shouldn't be merged. Besides [[https://www.mariowiki.com/Talk:Unlucky_Space#Reverse_the_earlier_proposal_to_Split_the_Bad_Luck_Space_and_Extra_Bad_Luck_Space]], there's already been a proposal to merge these which failed. {{Unsigned|PrincessPeachFan}}
:The Event Space is also like that; it changed both English and Japanese names between games, and has a different function not just between games, but also ''within'' games itself (''Mario Party 10''{{'}}s amiibo Party and ''[[Mario Party 3]]''{{'}}s Duel Maps). Plus, effects between games for, say the Bowser space, also differ between games, with ''Mario Party 3'' adding curses that forces players to move a limited number of spaces or backwards. In that logic, the Event Space should be split between games based on the Japanese name, and Bowser Space (''Mario Party 8'') should be its own page because its effects are vastly different compared to other games. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 09:30, April 4, 2025 (EDT)
:: We keep them merged because they never really changed between games. These are completely different things and even the names make it clear they're different. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:23, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
{{@|Hewer}} In a conversation on Discord, Porplemontage said that every vote counts the same, no matter if it's your first or second choice, I recommend you change your vote to choose the one you like best, like I did.[[User:Sorbetti|Sorbetti]] ([[User talk:Sorbetti|talk]]) 08:24, April 7, 2025 (EDT)
:I'm aware. I voted for both options because I favour them roughly equally. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:40, April 7, 2025 (EDT)

{{@|PrincessPeachFan}} The Extra Bad Luck Space is also more intense from the Bad Luck Space, including losing half of a player's coins or a star. This is similar to the [[Bowser Jr. Space]] which is like the Bowser Space, but just less intense. I get that there is another reason to keep that split (completely different function in ''Mario Party 9'') but it's still a separate page. EBLS also has a different Japanese name compared to BLS; they're even separate in the {{id|Space|Mario Party series}}s page, yet they still share the same page. I added an option to vote to split only the EBLS; you can vote for both options if you favor them equally. IMO, if the BLS is different enough from the Unlucky Space to warrant its own page, then so does the EBLS. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 12:28, April 18, 2025 (EDT)

{{@|Yoshi18}} If the Unlucky Space and Bad Luck Space are too distinct to be merged, then the Bad Luck Space and Extra Bad Luck Space are too distinct to be kept the same page. I don't think you mentioned it, but I personally don't buy the argument that the word "extra" is enough to keep them together; there are two distinct pages known as "[[Back Space (random)|Back]] [[Back Space (fixed)|Space]]", both with the only differences being what determines how many spaces backwards are moved. Also, I remember {{user|Obsessive Mario Fan}} saying "They're clearly different from Unlucky Spaces, but I don't think the two are really different enough to be split, as one just has worse effects." That is now what the Unlucky Space has adapted to in ''Jamboree'', which is the Bad Luck Space but with not as bad effects. If the options between the Unlucky Space and Bad Luck Space being different are enough to keep them split, then that should also make the Extra Bad Luck space warrant its own page; it is the only space on the {{id|Space|Mario Party series}}s page without its own page, even though it is distinct enough from the Bad Luck Space in the logic that the Bad Luck Space is distinct enough from the Unlucky Space.

{{@|FanOfYoshi}} I remember you said [[Talk:Unlucky Space#Keep it split|"Also, we should probably split both as well."]] Is there a specific reason you chose not to vote for the option so split Extra Bad Luck Space? You could still vote for "Do nothing" if you choose the split option, like Hewer did. You just said "Per all" without mentioning anything else like you did in the linked comment. 
:I didn't fully pay attention to what it was about when i first voted here. My bad. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 18:01, April 23, 2025 (EDT)
{{@|Power Flotzo}} I saw you mentioned "Per all" in both this proposal and the one that got it split in the first place. The main arguments for keeping the EBLS a part of the BLS page was because one simply had worse options, but with the Unlucky Space in ''Jamboree'' being a roulette for a bad option, there is nothing separating the Unlucky Space from the Bad Luck Space that also doesn't separate the Bad Luck Space from the Extra Bad Luck Space, aside from the similar name (you can see my message to Yoshi18 explaining that there are some spaces with identical names but have separate pages) and the shape of the space (although the ''Mario Party 3'' design of the [[Chance Time Space]] has since been repurposed for the [[Spin Space]] and [[Steal Space]]). [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 17:01, April 23, 2025 (EDT)