Editing Talk:Azure Roller
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== Why does this page exist as a seperate entity from Roller? == | == Why does this page exist as a seperate entity from Roller? == | ||
There are no differences between this Roller and Azure Roller besides the name and color, so isn't it a little bit redundant? We have already decided that Daisy's named moves in Smash be covered under Peach's moves, despite them having notably more differences. So why does this page need to exist? -- | There are no differences between this Roller and Azure Roller besides the name and color, so isn't it a little bit redundant? We have already decided that Daisy's named moves in Smash be covered under Peach's moves, despite them having notably more differences. So why does this page need to exist? --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 17:04, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:One didn't exist before ''Mario Kart 8'' - the other did, and had substantial stat changes between ''7'' to ''8'', and then again between ''8'' and ''8 Deluxe''. In both ''Mario Kart 8'' and the ''Deluxe'' version, they're also subjected to different CPU usage "preferences" as well. As mentioned previously, the matter of Daisy's moves were already thoroughly well-covered and do not have that much bearing on this one, since attack moves are covered differently from things like kart pieces. I feel that's enough reason to keep it split. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 17:16, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :One didn't exist before ''Mario Kart 8'' - the other did, and had substantial stat changes between ''7'' to ''8'', and then again between ''8'' and ''8 Deluxe''. In both ''Mario Kart 8'' and the ''Deluxe'' version, they're also subjected to different CPU usage "preferences" as well. As mentioned previously, the matter of Daisy's moves were already thoroughly well-covered and do not have that much bearing on this one, since attack moves are covered differently from things like kart pieces. I feel that's enough reason to keep it split. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 17:16, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::Per Lord Grammaticus. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 17:17, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::Per Lord Grammaticus. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 17:17, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Then again, Peach Blossom, Peach Bomber and Peach Parasol went through notable changes from game to game. None of which applied to Daisy. Daisy Blossom outright didn't exist until ''Ultimate''. Daisy Blossom is used by a different character and has differences such as completely different frames and cycles through 5 variants instead of six. Daisy Blossom doesn't spawn peaches. By that logic, Azure Roller can easily be covered in the gallery and by a single sentence on the Roller page, because it is literally the exact same case. Only difference being that this is a Mario Kart wheel vs a Smash Bros. attack, both blocks in a greater structure. They are synonyms of the same case. If this was any other user then I bet the outcome would have been different, but no, this is memoryman3 and Daisy, and no one likes memoryman's Daisy devotion. -- | :Then again, Peach Blossom, Peach Bomber and Peach Parasol went through notable changes from game to game. None of which applied to Daisy. Daisy Blossom outright didn't exist until ''Ultimate''. Daisy Blossom is used by a different character and has differences such as completely different frames and cycles through 5 variants instead of six. Daisy Blossom doesn't spawn peaches. By that logic, Azure Roller can easily be covered in the gallery and by a single sentence on the Roller page, because it is literally the exact same case. Only difference being that this is a Mario Kart wheel vs a Smash Bros. attack, both blocks in a greater structure. They are synonyms of the same case. If this was any other user then I bet the outcome would have been different, but no, this is memoryman3 and Daisy, and no one likes memoryman's Daisy devotion. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 17:22, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::Kindly stop acting in bad faith, changing the subject constantly, and generally making this about you and some presumptuous persecution of you or your fandom, and realize that we're simply making a case for the page remaining split like you asked us to when you started off this discussion. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 17:27, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::Kindly stop acting in bad faith, changing the subject constantly, and generally making this about you and some presumptuous persecution of you or your fandom, and realize that we're simply making a case for the page remaining split like you asked us to when you started off this discussion. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 17:27, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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::None of them apply to Daisy because her attacks effectively use the latest version of Peach's moveset as a template and changes various textures and objects, without any changes to damage, knockback, hitboxes, etc. that significantly impacts gameplay. Also, the fact that they're an attack and an item from two completely different genre of games should more than explain the world difference in the treatment of their subjects. And before I drift completely off topic - yes, the Roller and Azure Roller have the same stats, and thus similar impact on gameplay, but that impact is different enough from the several other tires in the games they appeared in, and is different between appearances. | ::None of them apply to Daisy because her attacks effectively use the latest version of Peach's moveset as a template and changes various textures and objects, without any changes to damage, knockback, hitboxes, etc. that significantly impacts gameplay. Also, the fact that they're an attack and an item from two completely different genre of games should more than explain the world difference in the treatment of their subjects. And before I drift completely off topic - yes, the Roller and Azure Roller have the same stats, and thus similar impact on gameplay, but that impact is different enough from the several other tires in the games they appeared in, and is different between appearances. | ||
:::Every argument that you have been made against Daisy Blossom's split can be applied to Azure Rollers, which are effectively the latest version of the Roller without any significant changes to geometry, size, speed, weight, stats. etc that even impacts gameplay slightly. The genre of games aren't that different in this context. Both are competitive multiplayer games with stat differences with the different characters, moves, and cars. The last point makes no sense, Peach Blossom is completely different from the other Final Smashes except Daisy Blossom, much more so than the other tires. Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom are even ''animated differently''. I don't see how I am the one who is in bad faith here - I'm just adding content to the wiki and trying to improve it. -- | :::Every argument that you have been made against Daisy Blossom's split can be applied to Azure Rollers, which are effectively the latest version of the Roller without any significant changes to geometry, size, speed, weight, stats. etc that even impacts gameplay slightly. The genre of games aren't that different in this context. Both are competitive multiplayer games with stat differences with the different characters, moves, and cars. The last point makes no sense, Peach Blossom is completely different from the other Final Smashes except Daisy Blossom, much more so than the other tires. Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom are even ''animated differently''. I don't see how I am the one who is in bad faith here - I'm just adding content to the wiki and trying to improve it. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 17:37, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::"Don't blame me, I'm just rigging the elections for your own good!" Stop making this about you. It's reeeeeeeeeally not helping your case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:38, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::::"Don't blame me, I'm just rigging the elections for your own good!" Stop making this about you. It's reeeeeeeeeally not helping your case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:38, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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Also, stop arguing with each other. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:41, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | Also, stop arguing with each other. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:41, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:My concern with merging is that there would be an entire section on MK7-specific stats that don't apply to the variant. The infoboxes could end up being awkward as well, unless they had a second infobox for the variant. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:45, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :My concern with merging is that there would be an entire section on MK7-specific stats that don't apply to the variant. The infoboxes could end up being awkward as well, unless they had a second infobox for the variant. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:45, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::Which is the exact same argument I made for Daisy Blossom being seperate. I think it will be fine as the Azure Roller is essentially a color swap of Roller. We can treat it as a sub-article of Roller.-- | ::Which is the exact same argument I made for Daisy Blossom being seperate. I think it will be fine as the Azure Roller is essentially a color swap of Roller. We can treat it as a sub-article of Roller.--[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 17:47, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::The difference is that the Mario Kart pages contain a lot more technical information and sections that only apply to specific games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:50, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :::The difference is that the Mario Kart pages contain a lot more technical information and sections that only apply to specific games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:50, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::The same thing can be done with Peach's moves to cover their changes from Brawl to Smash 4 to Ultimate. Of course, Brawl and Smash 4 information do not apply to Daisy. -- | ::::The same thing can be done with Peach's moves to cover their changes from Brawl to Smash 4 to Ultimate. Of course, Brawl and Smash 4 information do not apply to Daisy. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 17:57, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::I remember when we used to cover smash special moves in their separate articles, even moves like PK Thunder and PK Starstorm were merged, even when they did display separate gameplay properties. Just throwing that out there. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}}` | ::::I remember when we used to cover smash special moves in their separate articles, even moves like PK Thunder and PK Starstorm were merged, even when they did display separate gameplay properties. Just throwing that out there. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}}` | ||
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::Sticking purely to the subject of the page, I'm mostly in the same boat as WT, and I still think the stat changes and CPU preferences are enough for a split in my honest opinion. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 17:52, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::Sticking purely to the subject of the page, I'm mostly in the same boat as WT, and I still think the stat changes and CPU preferences are enough for a split in my honest opinion. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 17:52, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::there's also the fact that azure rollers are unlocked separately from the regular rollers as well. if you want to get really technical (for the hell of it but idk if it matters in the context of wiki laypeople), azure rollers even have their own model file (recolors of parts like the different circuit special recolors or standard kart character variants or even the recolors of characters like black shy guy share the same model file, but have their separate texture files) {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:56, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :::there's also the fact that azure rollers are unlocked separately from the regular rollers as well. if you want to get really technical (for the hell of it but idk if it matters in the context of wiki laypeople), azure rollers even have their own model file (recolors of parts like the different circuit special recolors or standard kart character variants or even the recolors of characters like black shy guy share the same model file, but have their separate texture files) {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:56, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::Daisy Blossom and Daisy Bomber are also made up of their own model files and effect files. The daisy is even classified as a different food item. It doesn't call from Peach's files. -- | ::::Daisy Blossom and Daisy Bomber are also made up of their own model files and effect files. The daisy is even classified as a different food item. It doesn't call from Peach's files. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 17:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
@Waluigi Time, I imagine the page would look something like this: [[User:Alex95/Sandbox#Roller]]. It's pretty hastily put together, but it's an example of what I had in mind. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:01, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | @Waluigi Time, I imagine the page would look something like this: [[User:Alex95/Sandbox#Roller]]. It's pretty hastily put together, but it's an example of what I had in mind. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:01, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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::honestly im more for a daisy blossom split than a roller + azure merge. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:07, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::honestly im more for a daisy blossom split than a roller + azure merge. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:07, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::Hrmmm....looking at them together, they honestly don't look any more similar than the Button or Leaf with the same stats (with the latter being DLC-specific), regardless of redesign between 7 and 8.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:07, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::Hrmmm....looking at them together, they honestly don't look any more similar than the Button or Leaf with the same stats (with the latter being DLC-specific), regardless of redesign between 7 and 8.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:07, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::They are of the same general shape, whilst the Button and Leaf Tyres are larger. Standard and Blue Standard might be better options. Or Slick and Cyber Slick. They do have different textures however.-- | ::They are of the same general shape, whilst the Button and Leaf Tyres are larger. Standard and Blue Standard might be better options. Or Slick and Cyber Slick. They do have different textures however.--[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 18:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::I also noticed the distinct tread pattern as well. There's also a few things that're worded strangely/incorrectly, but then it's just a preview, and assuming a proposal to merge these was passed, those would be smoothed out afterward I'd think. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 19:14, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::I also noticed the distinct tread pattern as well. There's also a few things that're worded strangely/incorrectly, but then it's just a preview, and assuming a proposal to merge these was passed, those would be smoothed out afterward I'd think. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 19:14, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::Now you notice these differences. It feels like the exact same thing I brought up with noticing the differences between Daisy's moves vs Peach's but sadly as a passionate Daisy fan I felt like I was ignored. I feel like the Daisy pages are meant to appeal for those who are seeking out these information, and I feel like it doesn't hurt to split them even if some users don't care about the differences, because that is subjective and the users who do look at the pages DO care about the differences. Objectively, Azure Rollers have a different name and design. Same thing goes for Daisy Blossom and the other Daisy pages. And the split pages in general. -- | :::Now you notice these differences. It feels like the exact same thing I brought up with noticing the differences between Daisy's moves vs Peach's but sadly as a passionate Daisy fan I felt like I was ignored. I feel like the Daisy pages are meant to appeal for those who are seeking out these information, and I feel like it doesn't hurt to split them even if some users don't care about the differences, because that is subjective and the users who do look at the pages DO care about the differences. Objectively, Azure Rollers have a different name and design. Same thing goes for Daisy Blossom and the other Daisy pages. And the split pages in general. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 19:27, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
You're not going to be able to use this discussion to force through the exact same changes on articles about entirely different (and may I emphasize '''unrelated''') subjects. You've had the reasoning for that explained in-depth on the appropriate pages ''where that discussion should remain''. Just let it go. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 19:31, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | You're not going to be able to use this discussion to force through the exact same changes on articles about entirely different (and may I emphasize '''unrelated''') subjects. You've had the reasoning for that explained in-depth on the appropriate pages ''where that discussion should remain''. Just let it go. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 19:31, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Agreed. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 19:43, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :Agreed. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 19:43, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::I have already explained multiple times how the cases are extremely similar. I really really really think you don't want me to go through with the changes because you don't want me to "win" the case. To be frank, you have already explained how winning and losing to fuel "fandom related agendas" is simply unwarranted. -- | ::I have already explained multiple times how the cases are extremely similar. I really really really think you don't want me to go through with the changes because you don't want me to "win" the case. To be frank, you have already explained how winning and losing to fuel "fandom related agendas" is simply unwarranted. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 05:55, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::The reason they should stay on their own pages is that at their respective hearts, they are ''different issues''. You are ''again'' making this about you! Stop that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:00, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | :::The reason they should stay on their own pages is that at their respective hearts, they are ''different issues''. You are ''again'' making this about you! Stop that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:00, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::Explain how they are different issues. The only difference I can find is that one is a move related to a character no one really likes in this wiki, and one is a kart part. Everything else related to the case has the exact same arguments. I explain that in Smash there's a huge pushback in the fandom against things with no gameplay differences, despite several other differences. Mario Kart doesn't have this issue. -- | ::::Explain how they are different issues. The only difference I can find is that one is a move related to a character no one really likes in this wiki, and one is a kart part. Everything else related to the case has the exact same arguments. I explain that in Smash there's a huge pushback in the fandom against things with no gameplay differences, despite several other differences. Mario Kart doesn't have this issue. --[[File:MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png|30px]] memoryman3 06:04, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::I have. One has a non-stock identifier to it. "Sky" isn't the same type of identifier as "character name." Additionally, I've already told you '''''I like Daisy'''''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:12, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | :::::I have. One has a non-stock identifier to it. "Sky" isn't the same type of identifier as "character name." Additionally, I've already told you '''''I like Daisy'''''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:12, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::Okay then, let's rename Peach Blossom into "Blossom" then to prevent bias. I would like to point out that Blue Standard in all names is simply the same name with "Blue" tacked on in all languages. --[[User:Memoryman3| memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 06:14, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ::::Okay then, let's rename Peach Blossom into "Blossom" then to prevent bias. I would like to point out that Blue Standard in all names is simply the same name with "Blue" tacked on in all languages. --[[User:Memoryman3| memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 06:14, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::It's not bias, it's a clone move. And the original is ''Peach'' Blossom by simple definition that it ''came first''. Stop acting like shared moves and tires with similar forms are a comparable situation, they aren't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:19, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | :::::It's not bias, it's a clone move. And the original is ''Peach'' Blossom by simple definition that it ''came first''. Stop acting like shared moves and tires with similar forms are a comparable situation, they aren't. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:19, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::Azure Roller however is clearly a clone wheel of the regular Roller with little to no differences, yet you staunchly defend that page being seperate simply because of a naming blip. This is roundabout. We get that you hate clone moves because Smash Bros. is supposed to be unique | ::::::Azure Roller however is clearly a clone wheel of the regular Roller with little to no differences, yet you staunchly defend that page being seperate simply because of a naming blip. This is roundabout. We get that you hate clone moves because Smash Bros. is supposed to be unique. I have seen many questionable articles in this wiki and I don't believe Daisy Blossom is going to be a stub or offensive. --[[User:Memoryman3| memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 06:25, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
== Too uneasy to support merging this == | == Too uneasy to support merging this == | ||
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:It's still in the discussion stage, no one's formalized anything outside of Alex throwing together that preview. And while iunno if using those specific color differences as a basis for kart treatment is something I'd be on board with ''entirely'', I do agree that it has some kinda weight (and I'm reminded of a vaguely similar situation with people adding information regarding some of the kart bodies). --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 20:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :It's still in the discussion stage, no one's formalized anything outside of Alex throwing together that preview. And while iunno if using those specific color differences as a basis for kart treatment is something I'd be on board with ''entirely'', I do agree that it has some kinda weight (and I'm reminded of a vaguely similar situation with people adding information regarding some of the kart bodies). --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 20:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::I'd also like to point out that it's not a "color" variation in the language of origin, but tacking a theme/location/element onto it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:49, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ::I'd also like to point out that it's not a "color" variation in the language of origin, but tacking a theme/location/element onto it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:49, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
