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| =="Demons" in the Mario verse.== | | =="Demons" in the Mario verse.== |
| Recently, a link to a potential article about Mario demons was deleted. I totally see why. A broken link doesn't look good ;). Anyway, considering the Shadow Queen, Red, and perhaps the Shadow Sirens were all demons, should we make an article about them? Sorry this doesn't really relate but I didn't want to get ahead of myself. -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]] | | Recently, a link to a potential article about Mario demons was deleted. I totally see why. A broken link doesn't look good ;). Anyway, considering the Shadow Queen, Red, and perhaps the Shadow Sirens were all demons, should we make an article about them? Sorry this doesn't really relate but I didn't want to get ahead of myself. -[[User:Stumpers|Stumpers]] |
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| ==Split== | | ==Split== |
| <s>[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/3#Ashley'n'Red|A recently accepted proposal]] requires that this article be split into two separate articles. Any persons involved in this article or the voting, please prepare and conduct the split. Thank you. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 23:15, 19 October 2007 (EDT)</s>[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/4#Ashley_.26_Red_.28Revisit.29|Cancel that]], previous proposal has been overturned. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 02:28, 3 December 2007 (EST) | | <s>[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/S&M#Ashley'n'Red|A recently accepted proposal]] requires that this article be split into two separate articles. Any persons involved in this article or the voting, please prepare and conduct the split. Thank you. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 23:15, 19 October 2007 (EDT)</s>[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_4#Ashley_.26_Red_.28Revisit.29|Cancel that]], previous proposal has been overturned. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 02:28, 3 December 2007 (EST) |
| :Well, if I have time this week, I'll try, but you know how things go. :( Life is being stuuuupid. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 21:27, 21 October 2007 (EDT) | | :Well, if I have time this week, I'll try, but you know how things go. :( Life is being stuuuupid. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 21:27, 21 October 2007 (EDT) |
| ::Should I just go ahead, split the page and let you lot sort it out? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 04:57, 11 November 2007 (EST) | | ::Should I just go ahead, split the page and let you lot sort it out? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 04:57, 11 November 2007 (EST) |
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| Ya know what? No, I'm not doing this. There just isn't enough information on Red for there to be two articles. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 23:44, 13 November 2007 (EST) | | Ya know what? No, I'm not doing this. There just isn't enough information on Red for there to be two articles. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]][[User:Ghost Jam|Chris]][[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 23:44, 13 November 2007 (EST) |
| :Here you go. My edit to the would-be split Red article, which wasn't complete. I don't want to post it just to be yelled at for causing extra work, so here you go:<br> | | :Here you go. My edit to the would-be split Red article, which wasn't complete. I don't want to post it just to be yelled at for causing extra work, so here you go:<br> |
| <nowiki>{{character infobox | | <nowiki>{{character-infobox |
| |image=[[Image: Ashley and Red WarioWare Touched.png{{!}}144px]]<br />'''Ashley''' and '''Red''', as they appear in ''WarioWare: Touched!''. | | |image=[[Image: Ashley and Red WarioWare Touched.png{{!}}144px]]<br />'''Ashley''' and '''Red''', as they appear in ''WarioWare: Touched!''. |
| |full_name = Red | | |full_name = Red |
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| ==Split Ashley and Red== | | ==Split Ashley and Red== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{SettledTPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|9-1|split}}
| | <span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">SPLIT ASHLEY AND RED 9-1</span> |
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| Ok, since articles like Blizzard Midbus, Kreepy Krow, and Dark Fawful are split up despite they being the same person, I would like to split Red and Ashley up as they aren't even the same person. And Red can have enough information to make up his own article anyways. | | Ok, since articles like Blizzard Midbus, Kreepy Krow, and Dark Fawful are split up despite they being the same person, I would like to split Red and Ashley up as they aren't even the same person. And Red can have enough information to make up his own article anyways. |
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| '''Deadline''': August 26, 2010 24:00 GMT | | '''Deadline''': August 26, 2010 24:00 GMT |
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| ===Support=== | | ===Support=== |
| #{{User|Booderdash}} Per me. | | #{{User|Booderdash}} Per me. |
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| Kat and Ana are twins! And they have almost the same personality and if split, they'll become stub. Spitz doesn't have enough infos since he almost doesn't talk. However, Ashley and Red have enough infos to be split and they do have different personality Ashley's very evil and red is a little coward! Also, in Dribble and Spitz article, all the paragraphes says They are, They do, They...However, in Ashley's article, we talk about ashley and jump to talk about red. {{User:Mr bones/sig}} | | Kat and Ana are twins! And they have almost the same personality and if split, they'll become stub. Spitz doesn't have enough infos since he almost doesn't talk. However, Ashley and Red have enough infos to be split and they do have different personality Ashley's very evil and red is a little coward! Also, in Dribble and Spitz article, all the paragraphes says They are, They do, They...However, in Ashley's article, we talk about ashley and jump to talk about red. {{User:Mr bones/sig}} |
| :It seems I will be this proposal's only opposition. After reading the article, I did not find enough information to justify creating a separate article, but that's just me. {{User|Mario4Ever}} | | :It seems I will be this proposal's only opposition. After reading the article, I did not find enough information to justify creating a separate article, but that's just me. {{User|Mario4Ever}} |
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| What are we waiting for? The proposal passed! | | What are we waiting for? The proposal passed! |
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| :Per, also the proposal said that Ashley and Red both have enough information of each other to have their own articles but I just read the article and barely mentions Red at all. {{User|Zero777}} | | :Per, also the proposal said that Ashley and Red both have enough information of each other to have their own articles but I just read the article and barely mentions Red at all. {{User|Zero777}} |
| ::I agree. A lot of proposals have been swept under the rug over the years; this one isn't buried in an archive which is why it's come back to haunt us, but another TPP can easily fix that. If splitting pages like these wasn't a recurring issue for the wiki, I'd suggest we kill it without a TPP, but an official repeal will stand up better if/when someone comes along and challenges the merge in the future. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 23:25, 4 April 2011 (EDT) | | ::I agree. A lot of proposals have been swept under the rug over the years; this one isn't buried in an archive which is why it's come back to haunt us, but another TPP can easily fix that. If splitting pages like these wasn't a recurring issue for the wiki, I'd suggest we kill it without a TPP, but an official repeal will stand up better if/when someone comes along and challenges the merge in the future. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 23:25, 4 April 2011 (EDT) |
| :::Didn't do anything because I seriously had better things to do than Mario, sorry :/ {{User:Booderdash/sig}}
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| ::::Rule 10 clearly states: "''The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it.''" If you can't follow through with your proposal, don't bother making one. Sorry, but it's as simple as that. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 10:38, 21 April 2011 (EDT)
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| ==Leave Merged== | | ==Leave Merged== |
| {{Settled TPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{Proposal outcome|passed|15-0|leave merged}}
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| As we were discussing in the section above this one, perhaps it'd be best if the old TPP was never enacted. There isn't really enough information uniquely about Red to make a decent page that's not just rehashing everything that happened to Ashley. Over three years ago, the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/3#Ashley_.27n.27_Red|first Proposal]] about splitting the pages was made; like the above TPP, it passed, but was never enacted. About a month later, it was overturned by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/4#Ashley_.26_Red_.28Revisit.29|this proposal]], which established a convention that if characters are similar enough, they should share an article. This convention was cited many times over the years whenever the issue of what deserves a separate page came up on the proposals; [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/6#Different_characters|a different proposal]] tried to undo this convention in 2008, but it failed. More recently, [[Talk:Young_Cricket_and_Master_Mantis#Split|a TPP]] about splitting [[Young Cricket and Master Mantis]] was voted down, and [[Talk:Dribble_and_Spitz#Split|another TPP]] about [[Dribble and Spitz]] is about to go the same way. No one has officially tried to split [[Kat and Ana]] yet, and I hope this doesn't change. It doesn't make sense to split any of these characters, and so I propose we strike down the TPP that passed here seven months ago; it's hung over our heads for too long. | | As we were discussing in the section above this one, perhaps it'd be best if the old TPP was never enacted. There isn't really enough information uniquely about Red to make a decent page that's not just rehashing everything that happened to Ashley. Over three years ago, the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_3#Ashley_.27n.27_Red|first Proposal]] about splitting the pages was made; like the above TPP, it passed, but was never enacted. About a month later, it was overturned by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_4#Ashley_.26_Red_.28Revisit.29|this proposal]], which established a convention that if characters are similar enough, they should share an article. This convention was cited many times over the years whenever the issue of what deserves a separate page came up on the proposals; [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_6#Different_characters|a different proposal]] tried to undo this convention in 2008, but it failed. More recently, [[Talk:Young_Cricket_and_Master_Mantis#Split|a TPP]] about splitting [[Young Cricket and Master Mantis]] was voted down, and [[Talk:Dribble_and_Spitz#Split|another TPP]] about [[Dribble and Spitz]] is about to go the same way. No one has officially tried to split [[Kat and Ana]] yet, and I hope this doesn't change. It doesn't make sense to split any of these characters, and so I propose we strike down the TPP that passed here seven months ago; it's hung over our heads for too long. |
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| In short, Ashley and Red should be kept together - for all the reasons listed in Ghost Jam's old proposal (the second one I linked to), for the reasons given for keeping the other ''WarioWare'' characters together, and for consistency's sake. | | In short, Ashley and Red should be kept together - for all the reasons listed in Ghost Jam's old proposal (the second one I linked to), for the reasons given for keeping the other ''WarioWare'' characters together, and for consistency's sake. |
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| ===Support=== | | ===Support=== |
| #{{User|Walkazo}} - Per my proposal here, per Ghost Jam's proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/4#Ashley_.26_Red_.28Revisit.29|here]], per the opposers [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/6#Different_characters|here]], and per LGM, Zero and myself in the section above this TPP. | | #{{User|Walkazo}} - Per my proposal here, per Ghost Jam's proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_4#Ashley_.26_Red_.28Revisit.29|here]], per the opposers [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_6#Different_characters|here]], and per LGM, Zero and myself in the section above this TPP. |
| #{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per him and I like it merged! | | #{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per him and I like it merged! |
| #{{User|Reversinator}} Per all. | | #{{User|Reversinator}} Per all. |
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| #{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} Per all | | #{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} Per all |
| #{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Looking at all of the reasons above, and how far this splitting has currently been carried out, I can see this is the better idea. | | #{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Looking at all of the reasons above, and how far this splitting has currently been carried out, I can see this is the better idea. |
| #{{User|Kaptain K. Rool}} - Per Walkazo.
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| #{{User|Bowser's luma}} There's enough evidence listed to the point of which I don't want to read it all, so I'll just per all.
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| #{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Bop1996}} Per all.
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| ===Oppose=== | | ===Oppose=== |
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| :I voted support in the previous proposal, but I changed my mind. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:19, 8 April 2011 (EDT) | | :I voted support in the previous proposal, but I changed my mind. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 19:19, 8 April 2011 (EDT) |
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| I would still oppose if the articles I mentioned 1 YEAR AGO were still kept as is, but I really dont have the time espciallly with my newly cruel father, school, Left 4 dead and the newly released pokemon games to daily check the comments and such so I won't vote
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| {{User:Booderdash/sig}}
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| ==Split Ashley's song from Ashley and Red==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|5-0|create article for the song}}
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| Well here's a couple of reasons of why I support to split these: 1. You don't normally find songs that have something to do with the character or group of characters (IE. [[DK Rap]].) 2. It's keep this article rather messy and unorganized.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|UltraMario3000}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': June 29, 2011, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per my proposal.
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| #{{User|Walkazo}} - We have pages for other songs, so this one should get its own article too. All the versions of the song, the "Made In Wario is Number One" Trivia and the controversy would fit nicely in a single, separate page.
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| #{{User|Reddragon19k}} Per Both!
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| #{{User|Superfiremario}} Per all!
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| #{{User|Bowser's luma}} Per all.
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| ===Oppose===
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| ===Comments===
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| Excuse me! 15+14=29! It ends on the 29th, not 30th! [[User:Reddragon19k|Reddragon19k]] 08:18, 15 June 2011 (EDT)
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| :Are you planning on putting all three versions in a separate article? {{User:Mario4Ever/sig}}
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| ::I don't think that'd work. So no I'm not.:/--{{User:UltraMario3000/sig}}
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| ==Comment==
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| I guess the split discussion already ended but I don't think Red deserves to be in the article name. Until now I didn't even know his name. In my opinion, the article should just be called Ashley, but with Red as a section in the same article. I '''highly''' doubt anyone will agree with me, but I didn't think it would hurt to check. {{User:Puddin/sig}}
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| :Don't do it, Mason. [[User:Mario & Luigi|Mario & Luigi]]
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| ::Don't do ''what?'' I can discuss whatever I want. I never planned on laying a finger on the article. {{User:Puddin/sig}}
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| :::I mean, don't rename the page. [[User:Mario & Luigi|Mario & Luigi]]
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| ==Update required==
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| Error! Error! Article not reaching Game and Wario standards! Edit now or face certain deleting! (Yes, I am speaing like a robot.) Your old friend Keboom.
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| :...What? {{User:Time Turner/sig}}
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| Basically what I'm saying is the article is out of date.
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| Uhhhh...
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| ==Split Ashley and Red again==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-8|don't split}}
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| I honestly don't see why Ashley and Red are merged anyway. The last time we had this discussion was four years ago, and things have changed since then. There's plenty of info for both of them to have their own pages, and Ashley is getting appearances without Red now.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|SuperYoshiBros}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': August 21, 2015, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per proposal.
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|Glowsquid}} - see below.
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| #{{User|LudwigVon}} - Per Glowsquid.
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| #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} As pointed out below, the only advantage of giving Red his own article would just be a reiteration of what this article already does. I don't see the real need to split Ashley and Red. Also, you need to consider [[Dribble and Spitz]], [[Kat and Ana]], and [[Young Cricket and Master Mantis]] as well. Should those be split too?
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| #{{User|Ghost Jam}} Per Glowsquid and history. We've had this discussion a number of times of the years, it all comes down to the same thing. There isn't enough relevant information for two articles to exist on their own nor is there a good reason for splitting. Worst case scenario, we agree to a split and then have another vote to remerge (which has happened twice). Best case scenario, we agree to a split and then no one performs it (which has also happened twice).
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| #{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per Glowsquid and Ghost Jam.
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| #{{User|RandomYoshi}} – Per Glowsquid.
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| #{{User|Lumastar}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Yoshi876}} Per Glowsquid.
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| ===Comments===
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| Ashley and Red are an ensemble. They may have distinct personality and appearances, yeah, but the overwhelming majority of their screentime is spent together, and Red exist more as a prop for Ashley than as his own entity. Of course the articles can be splited if Red's character is developed more, but none of the games that have been released since that last TPP do that.
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| the article as it currently is describe both character as succintly and as comprehensively as possible. A standalone Red page would just reiterate the same info as here with the bits specific to Ashley cut out (while Ashley's standalone page would largely remain as it is, because Red never does anything on his own), and I don't think uselessly duplicating the info like that is productive.
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| "''and Ashley is getting appearances without Red now.''
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| That's true of... two games, maybe? They appear together in Game & Wario and Rhythm Tengoku The Best+, Ashley is in Smash, <s>and nobody knows what they do in that Brand Brothers P music video (or even if they appear at all)</s> it's a clip show. even for smash, you could be an Horrible Person and says red is ashley's wand, which would leave paper airplane chase as the one other time ashley appears without red (and it's a very brief cameo). --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 18:42, 7 August 2015 (EDT)
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| == Ashley Voice Samples ==
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| I got some vooice samples of her voices in both Japanese and English versions of the game. If I upload this here on wiki, would someone mind adding it for me? {{User:Ashley anEoTselkie/sig}} 18:20, 9 April 2016 (EDT)
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| :Would be great. Just upload it now and we'll deal with linking them later. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:10, 9 April 2016 (EDT)
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| ::Alright, Thank you!!! :) {{User:Ashley anEoTselkie/sig}} 18:49, 10 April 2016 (EDT)
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| == Ashley's English VA ==
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| I have my doubts as to whether it's correct to assume that Peyser was the English voice of Ashley. While it is true that Peyser is among the English actors added to the English version of Touched not previously involved (or credited) in the Japanese version, it is also true that she is only credited in Touched and Twisted. The common denominator between those two games: Mona Pizza. The lead vocals between the Warioware games and the Brawl version are clearly the same woman, and for all we know that's all Peyser ever actually did for Nintendo. Additionally, it was stated in a podcast cited on Peyser's page on this wiki that Ashley's voice was a Treehouse member (note: Peyser's name was '''never''' stated). Peyser does not possess any such association, and her Linkedin profile does not indicate any ties to Nintendo that would suggest that she did. For all we know someone like Rades or Ninomiya picked up Ashley in addition to whatever roles they had already (as alluded to in said podcast). Please take notice of this observation and verify your facts. Thank you. [[User:Kyubihanyou|Kyubihanyou]] ([[User talk:Kyubihanyou|talk]]) 23:53, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
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| :Well, well that's embarassing.
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| though for what it's worth, [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Christina_Peyser&diff=1788489&oldid=1784767 an account claiming to be her] ("Hi! I'm the Christina Peyser who did the voiceover for Ashley and Mona Pizza.") edited the Christina Peyser page a year ago. It's obviously not a proof in itself, but I don't see why anyone would bother to impersonate an insanely obscure "voice actor" for an obscure character just to remove a fake image from a fan wiki if they're not going to do anything else. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 09:45, 20 April 2016 (EDT)
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| ::That's quite the tidbit. At worst she was Ashley in Touched only, with Smooth Moves (the game where she was globally made an English speaker) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lxD-l-gSKM) being a permanent recast to someone else, and the podcast interview was referring to that person reprising in later games such as Game & Wario. [[User:Kyubihanyou|Kyubihanyou]] ([[User talk:Kyubihanyou|talk]]) 13:09, 20 April 2016 (EDT)
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| :::Hi just got into this...Back on when I was uh...11 I guess I did some searching and various sites credited Peyser for the voice of Ashley in Touched. Then I created a page for peyser but I put the wrong image. Said person claiming to be Peyser removed it...I think it is really her, nobody would ned to be Peyser to remove an image so...anyway...
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| Well, Christine is credited for Touched! and it looks she indeed did Ashley for this game. The game looks to be low budget, since I ripped the samples myself and the microphones used are HORRIBLE...So probably they asked Peyser to do it rather than hiring a new voicer.
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| For Smooth Moves she isnt credited, not for voice acting at least. Ashley also sounds different in this game. However most Japanese sites and western ones with somewhat old dating credits her for the voice. I think those are all wrong, personally;
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| After Smooth moves the voicer seems to be the same...I wonder who it is...
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| I still dont know who did the japanese voice. I am doing research and asking for help of others to do so...
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| {{User:Ashley anEoTselkie/sig}} 20:58, 9 December 2016 (EST)
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| == Split? ==
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| Should we split them for both being separate characters, and Ashley appearing on her own a few times? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:38, September 23, 2019 (EDT)
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| :That's the rub - Ashley has appeared on her own, but you almost never see Red without Ashley, and if you'll take note of previous proposals, he'd lack enough information to write a proper article that isn't literally just "this one but shorter". If it were me, I wouldn't proceed unless I was sure I could actually present an argument that not only isn't a retread of previous attempts, but stands as effective on its own merits. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 06:58, September 23, 2019 (EDT)
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| :Lord's right; Red never appears without Ashley, so we can't do much if he had a page. [[User:Flogger|Flogger]]
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| ==We're once again trying to convince splitting Ashley from Red==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|failed|1-10|Do not split}}
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| I know, I know. This was discussed before. But, if we have page for Sipsi, an almost no importance character (SPM fan, I know she have literally no importance except teaching something involving the controls), why shouldn't we have Red? Plus, they're not the same person. - PS: I also know: Red never appears without Ashley, but Ashley SOMETIMES appear without Red. I hope you guys understand.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Flame Runner Funky Kong}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': November 3, 2020, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Split:===
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| #{{User|Flame Runner Funky Kong}} Per proposal.
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| ===Remain Merged:===
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| #{{User|Tails777}} Part of me wants to agree to this, but the other half of me remembers that WarioWare has a few duos that are never seen apart and that Ashley and Red aren't that special of a case. Dribble and Spitz, Kat and Ana, all of them are duos who are almost never apart. Even if Ashley has appeared without Red, Red hasn't appeared without Ashley, something mentioned in the previous proposal regarding this topic. 9-Volt and 18-Volt are different since they've appeared separately a few times in a much more notable way, with both of them hosting different microgame sets in several games. At the base of things, I think Ashley and Red should remain merged, for the sake of consistency between them and the other two duos I mentioned.
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| #{{User|Glowsquid}} "Red never appears without Ashley, but Ashley SOMETIMES appear without Red." - There you go. Red is entirely dependant on Ashley. As such, any standalone page for Red would simply be a redundant rephrasing of Ashley's with less content.
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| #{{User|DarkNight}} Per Glowsquid.
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| #{{User|The Mansion}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
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| #{{User|Archivist Toadette}} So long as Red remains by Ashley's side in all of his appearances (note what type of logic I'm using here), his article shall remain merged here.
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| #{{User|Sdman213}} Other WarioWare characters who continually appear as a duo are fine to be merged. Per all.
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| #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I understand the argument that Red is his own character and should be documented and categorized as separate entity, but I think Red's existence is entirely dependent on Ashley. We have other duo characters that are split indeed have been justfied with their own microgame sets. I'm open to the future potential of Red getting his own character arc and microgame sets, which is the minimum I think we can do, but as of now, it's better for the wiki to keep things merged and simple.
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| #{{User|Benjaminkirsc}}: Referring to the previous proposal<b>s</b>, no one said split. If they were separated into two characters, that would mean two articles (and like Alex95 said, also unless [[Kat]] and [[Ana]] get articles on their own, as well). But this proposal is just not what we should call for (not at all, no), because they are never separated (according to everyone here). And Tails777 is right, Red never is separated from Ashley (but here is what Tails777 also said about Ashley not being with Red very rarely). Judging on everyone, splitting these articles is not possible to do on the page, so <b>listen</b> to everyone who says no. Got to be <b>bold</b>, <b><b>very bold</b></b> here because splitting won't be possible at all. <b><i>Peroid</i></b>. P.S. look at my comment below more some more info.
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| #{{User|Alex95}} - Not unless we give [[Kat]] and [[Ana]] their own articles as well, but I don't see that happening, either.
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| ===Comments:===
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| We have a [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs|minor NPCs]] policy to justify articles like Sipsi. Ashely and Red are grouped as one character in ''WarioWare Gold'', so I'm a bit unsure on this one. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 14:36, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
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| Staying neutral for now, though I will say that since Ashley sometimes appears without Red, unlike every other WarioWare duo, it might be nice to see only the games where he appears more easily. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:02, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
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| :The only medias where Ashley appears without Red are Paper Airplane Chase (which is literally a single jpeg), <s>Crazy Galaxy</s> and Smash Bros. (and even then Ashley's spirit battle in Ultimate references Red, which may count as an appearance depending on how litteraly you want to interpret the mechanics of World of Lights). Just writing "(Ashley only)" in the appearance table would be a considerably more economical way of doing it. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 20:09, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
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| Also neutral, interesting to see the discussion be revived. {{User:The Mansion/sig}} 18:08, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
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| :^ Per The Mansion. {{User:DarkNight/sig}} 18:11, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Thanks. It is noted that this IS a featured article, so tremendous effort would have to be put into both articles in the case of a split. What if we kept the information about their duo appearances and made it second to that of their individual appearances? {{User:The Mansion/sig}} 18:15, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
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| Ashley and Red never (if not that: rarely) are separated. This shouldn't need a proposal, ever. [[User:Benjaminkirsc|Benjaminkirsc]] ([[User talk:Benjaminkirsc|talk]]) 19:40, October 29, 2020 (EDT)
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| ==A "split into separate articles" proposal? Oh no, not again!==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|12-1|split}}
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| Now, hear me out. I'm well aware that this has been tried before and repeatedly (and near-unanimously!) rejected, but I believe that things are different now. In the time since the last rejected proposal to split this article, ''WarioWare: Get It Together!'' has been released, a game which very clearly makes a distinction between character duos who function as duos and character duos who are separate. ''Get It Together!'' presents Ashley and Red very unambiguously as two separate characters, rather than as merely two halves of a team. They are still a team, of course, but they're presented more similarly to the ''n''-Volts than to Kat and Ana.
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| As it stands, much of the ''Get It Together!'' portion of this article already reads like two separate articles that have been interwoven together. Their roles in the story and their gameplay abilities are entirely distinct. In short, I don't think it still makes sense for them to share an article, so I suggest that Ashley and Red should be given separate articles.
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| Naturally, a similar argument could be made for Young Cricket and Master Mantis, and if this passes I think that would be a clear next step, but given just ''how'' strongly past proposals to split this article have been rejected, I don't want to suggest ''too'' much change, so for the time being the scope of this proposal is just this one article.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': February 28, 2023, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Support====
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per my proposal.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal.
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| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per GiT
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| #{{User|Tails777}} While I have supported the idea of keeping them merged, that was merely for consistency sake. I do support the idea of splitting them, but the right time was needed. I feel this is finally the right time. While it's true a grand majority of their appearances have been together, GiT does fully showcase different abilities and even different availability (as Red isn't available till post game). That's on top of their already different personalities and powers (even if Ashley's abilities do make use of/borderline rely on Red's). Either way, I feel we've reached a point where they can be split.
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| #{{user|Blhte}} No reason not split. ''Those duos has completely unique personality'' and, I know not very important, but at least they received splitted character profiles in WW, SM, Gold and GiT. Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, I've thought that it's weird we kept them merged ever since Get It Together came out.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
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| #{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all.
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| #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
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| ====Oppose====
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| #{{User|Wikiboy10}} Oh boy, yet another, we must split these two characters' pages. Just because they are playable separately in the game, doesn't warrant a split. We only do that if we have enough substantial information on the two. The gameplay elements of these two aren't enough to warrant a split.
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| ====Comments====
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| @Waluigi Time: You once [[Talk:Ashley & Red#Remain_Merged:|voted in favor of keeping these articles merged.]] Any reason why you suddenly changed your mind? [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 22:59, February 16, 2023 (EST)
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| :@Wikiboy10 "Substantial information"...? Really sorry, but can I know what type of information would support the split and be acceptable to you at same time? Are [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n08/azwj/kat/profile.html splited] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n08/azwj/dribble/profile.html profile] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/rodj/profile/p04.html like] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/rodj/profile/p18.html these] ok? <s>And I think two years is actually not sudden</s> {{User:Blhte/sig}} 23:29, February 16, 2023 (EST)
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| :@Wikiboy10 The difference now is that those previous proposals were all before Get It Together came out, in which they are entirely separate playable characters, and if that isn't enough to split them, what is? I've also noticed you tend to get defensive and ask why whenever people change their minds even though you could find out why they changed their minds just by reading their votes and the proposal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:40, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| ::Yeah, it's honestly a bit of a weird question, Wikiboy. Given that Waluigi Time said "per proposal", and the proposal clearly states what has changed since the previous attempt, you'd think it could be very easily assessed that Ashley and Red's treatment in GiT is what "suddenly" changed his mind on the matter. I mean, asking for elaboration is fine, but I personally thought this specific vote was pretty obvious. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:57, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| :::Pretty simple, I found the arguments of the opposition more convincing two years ago, but new information has come out since then and I think it's appropriate to split them now - "per proposal" sums it up, I agree with the points raised here and that's that. I didn't see a need to expand on that, and I still don't, really, I thought my stance here was pretty obvious. I have to be honest that this does strike me as a pretty odd question, particularly on this proposal of all things, it's not like barely anything has changed since the previous one. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:21, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| @Wikiboy10: I'm fairly certain two characters being playable separately ''is'' sufficient to justify two separate articles. Why else would there be separate articles for [[Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series)]] and [[Blue Toad (character)]], or a whole dedicated article about [[Junior (II)]]? Whether those ''should'' remain separate articles is another discussion, but this article already has more information about Red as an individual character than some of these other articles have about their subjects, so I believe that we've surpassed the point of "substantial information". [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 10:27, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| Not well versed enough in WarioWare to vote on this, but one thing I want to point out: this is a featured article, so how will that be impacted if the split happens? {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:40, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| :I'm not the final authority here, but since Ashley is the "main" member of the duo, I think it would make the most sense to treat it as Red being split off, with Ashley remaining as the "original" page and retaining the featured status. Whether the article is still worthy of that status post-split would be its own separate conversation. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:21, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| My problem with splitting these articles is our lack of information on Red. He's a pretty flat character and doesn't have enough unique personality traits. He serves as Ashley's sidekick and typically appears with her. So if we split them, [[MarioWiki:Once_and_only_once|we'd be saying the same things about Ashley]]. Where do you try to condense the article to where you can only talk about just him, aside from that one game? Even in ''Get It Together!'' Red does appear within Ashley's story. It's not like we have separate screentime with the two to warrant a split. If Red had a whole section to himself where he interacted with Penny, and we learn more traits about him, that's substantial enough for me. Or heck, if Ashley had more appearances without him besides ''Super Smash Bros.'', we would see more character traits.
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| Also, I'm afraid I have to disagree with the notion that playability should automatically warrant a split. Funnily enough, you mentioned Yellow Toad and Blue Toad, ''which should get a merge''. [[User:Wikiboy10/Yellow_Toad_and_Blue_Toad|I even made an incomplete sandbox to show what that is]], which is a proposal I thought of for a while. The only other thing to mention would be me pointing out Waluigi Time's Full Flop. If people change their minds suddenly, they should clarify that so people don't get the wrong idea. Tails777 does just that, so I didn't question that user. Plus, there are no such things as stupid questions. I wouldn't have asked Waluigi Time if that proposal was five years old since that is the usual Statute of Limitations. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 17:50, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| :Then just describe what Red has experienced and done only. Expect the history section need rewrite, nothing else is lacking I think. {{User:Blhte/sig}} 23:30, February 17, 2023 (EST)
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| :Even besides the fact Red has about the same [[Ashley & Red#Personality|personality]] as any WarioWare character, why does that matter at all? When has lack of personality (which is subjective) ever been a factor in splits and merges? Also, they do have separate screentime in Get It Together, both as a result of being separately playable and because Ashley is unlocked several levels earlier than Red in the story mode. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:39, February 18, 2023 (EST)
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| :I suppose that JanMisali could provide us with a draft page on how a separate Red article could look like, see whether or not it would work.<br>Also, more than two years has passed since the last proposal, so I don't think Waluigi Time changing his mind is all too sudden. If it were two ''months'', I'd understand it a bit more. I guess the wording of your initial question was just a bit off, too. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:00, February 18, 2023 (EST)
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| Truly it needs to be split. They aren't a duo with an identical personality. Ashley is aloof, Red is excitable. {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 23:32, February 22, 2023 (EST)
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| Alright, so this proposal has a 92% chance of winning now so I decided to make a proof of concept of what an [[User:Wikiboy10/Ashley|Ashley page would look like.]] I'm new when it comes to sandboxes, but yeah. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 14:58, February 23, 2023 (EST)
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| ==Post-proposal discussion==
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| Okay, looks like people are on board with splitting this! About time, I'd say. Now, one little question worth considering is what Red's page should actually be called. [[Red (WarioWare)]]? [[Red (WarioWare series)]]? [[Red (WarioWare character)]]? Possibly even [[Red (imp)]] or [[Red (game developer)]]? I think one of the first two would make the most sense given the naming policies, but it's still something worth thinking over. [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 10:20, March 1, 2023 (EST)
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| Apologies for the double-post but here's a [[User:JanMisali/Red|proof of concept]] for a standalone Red article. Obviously it's still missing a lot, but this should work as a starting point. [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 11:43, March 1, 2023 (EST)
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| I think [[Red (WarioWare)]] would be good enough. {{User:Arend/sig}} 01:32, March 2, 2023 (EST)
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| :Red (''WarioWare'' character) is what I chose. Also, check out my [[User:Wikiboy10/Ashley|Ashley]] sandbox too. I will admit I have no idea how we'll be able to avoid talking about Red in these articles, which was subject to my opposition. And that concern really shows in my sandbox as I tried to take that article and only talk about Ashley. And yes, I am aware of the personality differences, but the history section still has to mention him. I'm also going to try making concepts for Young Cricket and Master Mantis, since it's obvious they will be split too. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 01:34, March 2, 2023 (EST)
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| :I think Arend is right; [[Red (WarioWare)]] would be sufficient, and would follow the guidelines of [[SMW:NAME]]. Also, @Wikiboy10, looks pretty good I think! Although I don't think it's fully necessary to completely avoid talking about Red; he ''does'' play a major role in Ashley's stages. The [[9-Volt]] article talks about 18-Volt frequently in its history section, and to a lesser extent Joe is brought up a lot in the [[Mona]] article. [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 12:15, March 2, 2023 (EST)
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| ::According to [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining the identifier]]: "If the subject of the article appears in multiple games in one series, use the series name plus the word "series" instead of a game name as the identifier if the topic(s) of the other article(s) are from different series." So I think "Red (''WarioWare'' series)" would be more correct than just "Red (''WarioWare'')". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:01, March 3, 2023 (EST)
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| This article has the name Ashley & Red, yet thanks to tom zhao and blythe removing any mention of Red in the article, I think this article should now be moved its name to Ashley. But keep you fingers crossed for any red links {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 22:40, May 10, 2023 (EDT)
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| Ashley Red gallery moved to ashley gallery. What about [[List of Ashley & Red quotes]]? Should we rename it to list of ashley quotes (removing Red dialogue), or just keep it the way it is? {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 19:14, May 12, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Split Red from Ashley's quotes just like everything else. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:04, May 13, 2023 (EDT)
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